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I stumbled upon a poorly asked question on Stack Overflow.

As always when I see these kinds of questions, I add a comment asking for the OP previous attempts at getting what they want.

Since the code in the question was also written raw (Without Ctrl + K, I mean), I edited the question and added that.

Someone rejected my edit and commented, saying

don't bother trying to make such bad questions look any better. It's up to the OP to edit it into shape. If OP does not, the question will be deleted and you will loose your editing points.

Did I understand something wrong on Stack Overflow? Are we not supposed to help questions be more readable? Plus, as I answered in the comments, I couldn't care less about editing points, the goal being to help the OP help themselves then help them if they still need it.

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  • 70
    Looks like you were trying to polish a poop. Just let it die. Commented Feb 4, 2018 at 14:37
  • 12
    Editing an otherwise-fine question to make it more readable should definitely be encouraged. This question was off-topic, and editing for readability doesn't really change that.
    – Joe C
    Commented Feb 4, 2018 at 14:37
  • 4
    There are many questions that can be usefully edited. Maybe the asker does not know the recognised terms for some of the points, or maybe English is not the askers' first language. Moving garbage from one side of a dumpster to another, however, is not good use of time:( Commented Feb 4, 2018 at 14:52
  • 2
    When there's a crap question in the Triage queue, but it's so full of unformatted code that it's hard to get my head around, my cursor hovers between Unclear What you are Asking, requires editing so that the unformatted code gets cleaned up, or skip because I don't want to deal with it. Once in a while (not often), it's an acceptable question hidden in poor formatting by someone who doesn't understand how to format code, but more often, they're terd questions to be rightfully deleted. Being edited and polished makes the poop more easily recognizable for what it is to help the close voters.
    – Davy M
    Commented Feb 4, 2018 at 17:05
  • 19
    BTW: When making an edit, please try to fix as much as you can with the post. In this example there were clear grammar issues (e.g. capitalizing "I"; a comma, or period, after Hello; poor sentence structure (but, I don't necessarily expect everyone to correct that last one), etc.); and the "Thanks you." should have been removed, as it's just noise.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Feb 4, 2018 at 22:24
  • 18
    I can't comment on that particular question, as it appears to have been deleted. From my experience, though, StackOverflow seems rife with elitism and arrogance. I don't think very many users are motivated by a genuine desire to help others.
    – Jared
    Commented Feb 5, 2018 at 14:51
  • 2
    @Jared That's just sad. For me Stack Overflow is supposed to be a stronghold for help.
    – Zenoo
    Commented Feb 5, 2018 at 14:57
  • 14
    @Zenoo true... but to help yourself, not to help others. Many people get their signals crossed and think all the moderating we do on content is us being a bunch of meanies that don't want to help. It is however entirely besides the point, Stack Overflow is not a support forum but rather a knowledge base.
    – Gimby
    Commented Feb 5, 2018 at 14:58
  • 30
    @Jared: The thing is, the site exists to collect posts of high enough quality to help everyone. We are not here to answer every single question posted. That's nothing to do with elitism or arrogance, it's just that that is not the focus and goal of this site. It sounds as if you haven't quite understood what the goal of Stack Overflow is. I also must point you to our behavioural policies, which include the expectation that everyone assumes good intentions, 'seems rife with elitism and arrogance' flies right in the face of that expectation.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Feb 5, 2018 at 15:09
  • 2
    sometimes it seems like some people don't have a clue about your question, but just want to comment that they don't like the question. and that can be a little annoying..
    – SteinTech
    Commented Feb 5, 2018 at 15:11
  • 4
    I find the site nothing less than a transformational "stronghold for help" but also "rife with elitism and arrogance" per @Jared that I have to wade through and ignore to get the help I want, and it is an issue for me. I think online "personality" is an unfortunate fact of life on the internet generally that I would like SO heavies to pan and hope that genuine contributors like yourself do not get discouraged. I would like to see more humble and helpful edits, answers, and comments and less chest-beating.
    – snakedog
    Commented Feb 5, 2018 at 17:28
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    @MartijnPieters I do understand the purpose of SO. I understand why there are quality checks and why posts are edited. I understand the voting system. I have no problem with any of that. My comment pertains to the manner in which some users carry out those activities. As I said, that's been my experience. I'm allowed to have my opinions, and I'm not violating any policies by voicing them in a neutral tone.
    – Jared
    Commented Feb 5, 2018 at 18:02
  • 8
    @Jared: to me, the phrase seems rife with elitism and arrogance does not come over as a neutral tone, just so you are aware of that. Communication online is hard, text is not always read as you intend it to be, so take that into account when interpreting the behaviour of others. As a moderator, I get to see a very wide swathe of the site community, including the outliers; in my experience there is no elitism nor arrogance in the vast majority of our users. If you see outright elitism/arrogance that violates our policies (I linked those before), flag that behaviour and we'll deal with that.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Feb 5, 2018 at 18:09
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    There are actually two kinds of behaviour that can come over as elitist and arrogant. (A) Those with high technical standards can come over as highly critical of novices. Part of this is that those with high standards actually value criticism, but may forget that novices can be very sensitive and insecure. (B) The other kind is more process/community oriented: "this is not a suitable question for SO, don't you know what SO is for, what do you think are you doing here?". I always wonder who gave these people the right to speak for the community in this way. Commented Feb 6, 2018 at 0:06
  • 2
    'novices can be very sensitive and insecure' well, firstly, SO is a site for professional and enthusiast progammers. Total beginners with insufficient knowledge/experience to handle basic syntax are going to have a hard time. Second, compilers, linkers, interpreters don't care about the sensitivity/security of those submitting code. If users are unable to cope with disappointment, they should choose another course/profession because software engineering is ALL hassle and strife. Commented Feb 6, 2018 at 22:32

6 Answers 6

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Note that reviewers can only do 20 Suggested Edit reviews a day so not only does suggesting an edit to a question that will likely be closed and deleted take up time, it also wastes a review that could have been spent on a good question.

You also risk preventing the OP from being able to get the question re-opened. Here's a thing I keep seeing happen:

  1. OP asks a question in a way that warrants closure
  2. A user < 2K rep suggests an edit that doesn't address those issue(s)
  3. The question gets put on hold
  4. Reviewers accept the edit anyway
  5. The edit puts the question in the re-open queue
  6. The question doesn't get re-opened because it still has problems
  7. By the time the OP finds out their question is closed they no longer have the option of getting it re-opened

A question only gets one shot at getting re-opened. Getting an edit accepted after the question is put on hold means the OP never even gets that one chance to fix it.

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    Strikes me this is a deficiency in the platform. If users aren't helping other users ask better questions because of a feature of the various queues, that doesn't feel very welcoming esp to new users. Commented Feb 4, 2018 at 19:31
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    I'm not using my 20 edits a day. I might as well use them whenever it can help someone ask better questions, or at least questions in a better form. The problem you're describing doesn't feel right, like @GavinSimpson said.
    – Zenoo
    Commented Feb 4, 2018 at 19:44
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    Note that the person who suggested the edit can prevent their edit from putting the question in the reopen queue by also flagging the question for closure. Obviously, most editors don't know this, and there is no way for reviewers to know if it's the case.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Feb 4, 2018 at 22:12
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    @Zenoo It's not that you have 20 suggested edits/day, it's that each reviewer can only do 20, and your edit must be reviewed by at least two people. I'd also note that there are usually fewer people doing reviews than is actually desirable. Hence, the queue is rarely very low. Part of the point is that edits from people with <2k rep take effort from people beyond that individual. Once you have 2k rep, making edits which don't have quite as much lasting value isn't unreasonable (e.g. I'll often make an edit just to show the OP what the formatting should be, or prevent likely suggested edits).
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Feb 4, 2018 at 22:19
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    @Makyen My bad, I didn't understand correctly. I'll refrain myself from doing those edits until I reach 2k rep, I don't want to overload the reviewers ! Thanks.
    – Zenoo
    Commented Feb 5, 2018 at 10:02
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    Is there a bug report/feature request for fixing this?
    – GolezTrol
    Commented Feb 5, 2018 at 16:49
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    @GolezTrol I have seen it suggested that a question going to the Re-open Queue should be a deliberate action on the part of the OP rather than it happening automatically on the first edit, but I don't know if there has been an actual feature request asking for this.
    – BSMP
    Commented Feb 5, 2018 at 17:21
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    This is a feature-request asking for something very related: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/355341/…
    – Tas
    Commented Feb 5, 2018 at 22:10
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    Many times, questions are simply down voted without any comment whatsoever. Posters may not necessarily know what was wrong with a question. Commented Feb 6, 2018 at 2:57
  • @Zenoo you're already pretty close, too Commented Feb 6, 2018 at 3:10
  • @user2125853 - My answer only applies to questions that are likely to get put on hold and closed, not just down voted. On topic questions that just need wording and formatting help should be edited.
    – BSMP
    Commented Feb 6, 2018 at 22:11
  • I got a comment on my answer referencing yours, BSMP - I think you're spending a lot of time on a red herring here. Most notably, the edit being discussed was made and rejected long before the question was ever closed; whether approved or rejected, it would've made zero difference in terms of reopen reviews.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Feb 7, 2018 at 20:34
  • But beyond that, it's kinda "inside baseball" - 3rd party edits account for a fairly small number of reopen reviews to start with, and less than 10% of those ever see a first-party edit after the question has been in review. The sequence of events you describe happens so rarely as to be hardly worth worrying about; better to encourage editors to make edits that focus on critical problems, as such edits can eliminate the need for closure entirely.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Feb 7, 2018 at 20:37
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Others have provided some practical reasons for why your edit may have been criticized. But I feel that they leave you without a good basis for judging when or how to make such edits in the future... So I'm going to try to dig into that a bit in this answer, as generally-speaking edits that improve code formatting are a critical role here and I don't want you to get the wrong idea.

This was the edit you submitted - you should still be able to see this, even though the question is now deleted. Take a good look at the right-hand pane.

Now pretend you were looking to answer the question after your edit...

  1. Is the question clear and specific as to what the asker is trying to do?
  2. Does the question include sufficient detail on the language or platform involved to allow those with knowledge of that area to find it?
  3. Has the asker indicated where, specifically, they're having trouble?
  4. Is there sufficient information in the question to determine if a given answer solves the problem?

I think that you'll find the answer to all 4 questions is No. And your edit does nothing to improve the situation for any of them - not because you did anything wrong with the formatting, but simply because none of the problems were with the formatting to begin with:

  1. We know that the asker is trying to extract sequences from a file; they describe their goal as, "extract how much number in an ELSET". Unfortunately, it's not clear if the goal is to store the individual numbers in a sequence in some other format, pass them off to another API, count the length of the sequences, calculate the extent of each sequence or all sequences, or... Something else. This is partially a language issue, but for us it's a matter of incomplete specs - either the asker isn't clear on what they're trying to do, or they are incapable of communicating it effectively.

  2. The title suggests it's a regex question but doesn't specify a platform or regex engine. The tags include both bash and python - which have different regex engines. The question implies that either one is acceptable, as is literally any other language - this is probably not actually true however.

    Worse, there's no information whatsoever on the format of the input file. It looks like an file; if that's the case, mentioning that (and using the tag) would've helped a great deal; it's guaranteed the folks who have experience working with this format are a much smaller group than "anyone with regex experience in any language on any platform".

  3. No, there's no indication that the asker has put any thought or research into this problem at all, much less any indication of where, specifically, they need help.

  4. Nope; as noted for #1 above, we know nothing aside from that the asker wants to do something with the sequences; since we don't even know where they're having trouble (#3) we can't even assume that simply reading the data into Python datastructures would be sufficient; they may in fact have no knowledge of Python.

In short, this is the very definition of a Very Low Quality question. It is now deleted because of this; even if your edit had been accepted, it would've been for nothing.

A theoretical heroic edit

So what would a useful edit have looked like in this scenario? Well... You'd have needed to correct at least 1 of the four deficiencies outlined above. Realistically, this means you would've needed to guess at what the asker wanted, since they provided no clarifying information in comments or otherwise.

  1. You could've decided the goal was to count the number of distinct values contained in each sequence. There's no indication that this is what the asker wanted, but it's as plausible as anything else; you would then re-write the question to reflect this.

  2. You could have picked "python" and "abaqus" as the two relevant platforms, altered the tags to reflect this, and altered both the title and closing sentence to limit the question to this field.

  3. You could've made up some long back story about how the asker, a beleaguered student, was tasked by his professor with processing a data file in some arbitrary fashion, and after trying for days to make a bash script work had come to the conclusion that Python was a better choice - but knowing nothing about the language was at a loss as to where to start.

  4. This is functionally identical to #1, except that you could possibly get away with just generating a desired output listing instead.

If all of these approaches sound risky, time-consuming and slightly dishonest... That's because they are. No one in their right mind would do any of them unless they were super invested in the question itself for some reason. I mention them only to illustrate just how far this question was from anything remotely acceptable or answerable - while for many questions the biggest problem facing acceptance is the presence of unformatted code, for this one salvation can only come in the form of you taking on the role of short-fiction writer.


This, more than anything else, is what you should look for when deciding whether or not to edit: is the work you're willing to put in likely to make any effective difference in how the question is received? If not, then you can save yourself the time and pick out another question where your efforts will be appreciated.

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    Great answer @shog just wish I could have structured it as elegantly.
    – user692942
    Commented Feb 5, 2018 at 23:26
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    I posit that you can be a hero here: softwareengineering.meta.stackexchange.com/q/7947/102438
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Feb 6, 2018 at 15:45
  • I often see questions in poor English, and my reasoning was always, that I edit, if it improves the question massively. Unclear questions, lacking information, I guess, are at higher risk of getting closed, if they additionally suffer from hard to deduce sentences and poor formatting. IMHO a question shouldn't get closed if it is healable - well, it should get closed but reopened after healing. I don't understand the reopening process as pointed out by BSMP, that there is only one shot, from when it counts and by which logic. I'm an advocate of healthy dying. :) Commented Feb 7, 2018 at 10:51
  • Don't stress too much about the reopen process, @user; you can always just vote to reopen if/when you think a question should be reopened (and if the question isn't closed yet, your edit may help prevent the need for that entirely). The important thing is that you're able to actually make a difference: poor English is one thing, but if there's no question under that... You're back to the situation I describe above.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Feb 7, 2018 at 20:26
  • Thanks for the rundown ! I don't think I'll ever edit something where I have to write down a guess, though. I'd be scared to totally miss the OP's point.
    – Zenoo
    Commented Feb 7, 2018 at 23:47
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When a user with <2000 reputation does an edit, the edit has to go through peer review by other users, through the "suggested edit review queue".

Strictly speaking, the policy is that suggested edit reviews should only address the edit in itself - does it improve the question or does it not? Formally, that's the only concern the edit reviewer should have.

However, reviewers will get frustrated when they get fed edit reviews where people try to polish crap. If a question cannot be made answerable and on-topic by anyone but the OP, we are just wasting time editing it, and reviewing the edits, since it will get closed anyway.

This is what happened in your case - it is a code begging question with no effort shown by the OP. The only way to make it on-topic is if the OP edit it. No amount of polishing by anyone else can make the question on-topic.

So what you should preferably have done here is to flag -> should be closed -> too broad.

Or if you have some pedantic streak and really wish to polish posts, even though they can't be fully fixed, then please wait with doing so until you have more than 2000 reputation. Then your edits don't need to go through review and you can happily polish away.

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  • Yep, that was my conclusion too in the comments of the accepted answer, thanks !
    – Zenoo
    Commented Feb 5, 2018 at 14:22
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    +1 for pointing out that "Strictly speaking, the policy is that suggested edit reviews should only address the edit in itself - does it improve the question or does it not? Formally, that's the only concern the edit reviewer should have." The other commentary and answers seem largely focused on justifying the reviewer, whose behavior, though understandable, was technically incorrect. Commented Feb 5, 2018 at 15:16
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    @JohnBollinger The thing is, I disagree with this policy and do not always follow it myself, even though I am aware of it. The SO policies are set by the community, but if the majority of the community thinks a policy is stupid, it needs to change. Nothing is set in stone, in case SO is truly community moderated. If someone is editing "gimme teh codez plz" into "kindly give me the code, please", then the editor is clearly lacking every trace of common sense and needs to be smacked down, not encouraged.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 5, 2018 at 15:24
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    @Lundin, I'm not condemning the particular reviewer's behavior, nor any other reviewers'. I'm simply approving that you point out that there is a bona fide discrepancy between what we say and what some of us do. Commented Feb 5, 2018 at 15:27
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Never bother with things that are unsalvageable.

Especially with things that are obviously just going to be closed.

Wastes your time, and everyone else's time that has to deal with it in the edit queue.

Mark it to be closed and move on to the next thing that can be salvaged.

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  • Would it be more appropriate to say "Never bother fixing things that are unsalvageable" instead? It seems that telling the user why their post is broken beyond repair would be the first step in turning them into the kind of user that posts non-broken questions (or, at least, salvageable questions...)
    – corsiKa
    Commented Feb 6, 2018 at 15:26
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    That would be a contradictory statement, @corsika: if you can fix it, then it isn't unsalvageable. This is a fine line at times: if you look at some of the top answerers here, they're often able to identify problems that seem opaque to casual observers based on experience with the class of problem - in some cases delving into what Raymond Chen called "psychic debugging", or synthesizing a likely scenario based only on the described symptoms... What's problematic are "turd polishing" or "rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic": nominally beneficial actions that leave fatal flaws unaddressed.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Feb 6, 2018 at 16:04
  • @Shog9 I think we're saying the same thing. If you can fix it, then sure, fix it. If you can't, don't other trying. But when possible, let the user know why it can't be fixed so either they can fix it or try to redefine the problem and write a new question that can be answered.
    – corsiKa
    Commented Feb 6, 2018 at 16:40
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A bad question with bad formatting is harder to fix than a bad question with good formatting.

A bad question with bad formatting is harder to be certain the question is bad than a bad question with good formatting.

Good formatting is useful even on bad questions. I've taken a question, fixed its formatting, and only after doing so voted to close it; before fixing the formatting, I couldn't be certain it was as bad as it was.

Reviewers do get frustrated by people polishing turds: but the official policy of SO at this point is that any strict improvement to a post should be approved, regardless of if it is insufficient.

And sometimes a horrible question with bad formatting being formatted into shape teaches the question asker how to format. It can happen. They don't learn how to ask a good question from the format fix, but see above; I'd rather have well formatted horrible questions than poorly formatted horrible questions, even if the only thing I do is vote to close/delete them.

Who knows, maybe the horse will learn to sing.

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  • This is the correct answer: edit then close. The review should have been approved. The "too minor" rejection reason was explicitly removed to allow such edits. The community cannot overrule the clearly stated rules, but some still try and that's one of the reasons why people talk about elitism on SO. Commented Feb 6, 2018 at 21:40
  • @ChristianStrempfer: read the 7 point road map to a possible edit-then-close history in the accepted answer. Note that the editor did not have immediate-edit privileges, and so not only his time got wasted but that of the reviewers too. That counts heavily for me; they could have spent their review on checking a question worth keeping.
    – Jongware
    Commented Feb 6, 2018 at 23:52
  • @usr2564301: I did read all answers before commenting and my personal opinion is that driving away users who want to help is worse than one "wasted" review. Especially because that are the official rules no matter if that counts heavily for you. Commented Feb 7, 2018 at 5:56
-10

I was answering some question, and my answer was edited. I review the edit and now I know, how to do:

this 

this

and

this

So, I think OP can learn something even if question will be deleted.

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    You're too kind. If the OP posts a question like this without any information or attempt, what makes you think that they will care about this?
    – Rakete1111
    Commented Feb 4, 2018 at 20:19
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    What happened to "be nice"?
    – SandPiper
    Commented Feb 4, 2018 at 21:46
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    I was the one rejecting the edit and leaving the comment. So, let me ask you as well: how does formatting a bad question correctly make it a good question? I'd rather see lots of good questions with bad formatting. (In which case I might feel generous and edit it into shape.)
    – Jongware
    Commented Feb 4, 2018 at 23:23
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    You can know how to format just by looking at the "How to format" page. If someone doesn't bother to read SE help pages before asking they are not likely to want to ask good question anyway.
    – user202729
    Commented Feb 5, 2018 at 6:19
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    @user202729: or they are just overwhelmed by the information...or think that it'sbetter to ask forgiveness than permission
    – serv-inc
    Commented Feb 5, 2018 at 10:49

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