167

Just wanted to share a graph about IDEs usage vs years programming I made using the 2017 Survey results.

Since there is no "age" question in the survey (why?), we are forced to correlate years programming with age (not too far fetched)

The result for a selected set of IDEs is this (junior programmers to the right)

enter image description here

Couple of things seem interesting:

  1. Visual Studio is the most used IDE, across almost the entire range
  2. Sublime Text seems to be more popular among junior programmers
  3. Atom is slowly gaining traction, especially among junior programmers
  4. Vim usage markedly drops for people with less than 10 years of programming experience

This last point can either be interpreted as:

  1. Senior programmers use Vim a lot, junior programmers do not
  2. It takes at least 10 years of programming experience to finally adopt Vim

Update The 2018 survey results are in this repo in case anyone wants to see it.

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  • 69
    Does Visual Studio include Visual Studio Code? also isn't the x-axis the wrong way round, shouldn't the left side be <1, anyway, I'd say this is mostly true, it's nice to see the data on it.
    – George
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 13:00
  • 16
    Visual Studio was also Windows-only until, um, this year. :-)
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 13:00
  • 5
    @George no, Visual Studio Code is counted as a separate IDE (that's how the survey handles it, not my decision) I draw the x axis inverted on purpose, so that younger programmers are to the right.
    – Gabriel
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 13:01
  • 35
    Is there a good reason that the X-axis is reversed from normal practice? I'd expect to see the values become larger as you moved from left to right. Thanks. Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 14:29
  • 11
    @ThingyWotsit - real programmers sitting at a VAX wouldn't be using vi or vim anyways - they'd be using EDT - AND LOVING IT!!! :-) Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 14:31
  • 36
    I can tell you from hard-won experience that any editor beats the pants off of punch cards. Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 14:34
  • 27
    @Gabriel: but...I want to be on the right. 40+ years of experience - I've EARNED MY PLACE on the right! I AM RIGHT!! RIGHT?!? RIGHT!!!!! :-) Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 14:35
  • 195
    More likely explanation is that it takes on average about 10 years to learn how to exit Vim.
    – Goose
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 15:02
  • 25
    Rather than "it takes 10 years to adopt vim," I think new programmers will never adopt vim. It was taught 10-20 years ago, but probably not taught as much now. I learned to code 15 years ago, and you can pry vim from my cold, dead hands. The next time I write code with a mouse and a dropdown menu will be from a hospital bed. Is 33 old?
    – 22degrees
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 15:12
  • 11
    @George I suspect the graph is the way around it is so that it is shown forward in time. That is: showing a trend that progresses from "past" to "future." If this question was repeated in 10 years, you'd expect that the data would shift to the right (roughly) by 10 increments, with new data on the right. Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 15:14
  • 16
    FWIW - I've been programming for over 40 years, have used editors and IDEs of every generation, and my preferred development tool these days is (drum roll, maestro!) jEdit. It does what I need it to do without muss or fuss, and is sufficiently cross-platform that I can use the same tool no matter where I am. And yes - it means I'd rather program with a mouse and drop-down menus than memorize keyboard sequences, largely because my fingers aren't so agile no more, and my memory went...somewhere. Sometime. Not sure where or when. Were we talking about something..? :-) YMMV. Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 15:18
  • 7
    Or, another way to look at your point "It takes at least 10 years of programming experience to finally adopt Vim", is that after 10 years of messing around with other editors, some people realise that Vim is better than the alternatives, and "go back" to it ;)
    – dean.
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 15:38
  • 11
    @apnorton it just takes that long to set up.
    – I haz kode
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 16:23
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    Who on earth creates a graph with x axis in descending order?
    – NRitH
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 18:16
  • 6
    @NRitH (>'.')> this guy -->
    – Gabriel
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 18:16

8 Answers 8

365

The answer is quite simple. Stack overflow didn't exist 10 years ago. Because of that questions like How to exit the Vim editor?1 could not be asked and everyone was perpetually stuck in VIM as a result. Now we see the old timers that have given up and are just in VIM permanently Vs. new programmers that were able to find out how to exit VIM giving them the freedom to use other Editors/IDE's.

1. Thanks to the blog for pointing it out

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    I exited VIM once. But I had to hard-reboot the server. Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 15:15
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    Open-and-shut case. Or just open, forever, for those still stuck in VIM. Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 15:16
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    -1 For adding a exiting-vim-based answer before I had time to. Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 15:21
  • 13
    @Don'tPanic Don't panic, you can add a complementing answer. Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 15:33
  • 9
    Unfortunately, although I've discovered how to use vim to browse meta and comment, sadly I haven't figured out how to add answers with it yet. Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 15:54
  • 51
    Memory is much cheaper now. Unwanted Vim sessions can just be left open until the next time the disk needs formatting. Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 16:34
  • 9
    eat flaming death!
    – NRitH
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 18:14
  • Anyone for TECO? Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 19:51
  • @Draco18s I feel like this should be a t-shirt. I would buy it.
    – l Steveo l
    Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 2:02
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    As a hard VIM user I was sure this post is about quitting the VIM addiction.
    – noname7619
    Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 7:59
  • 5
    commitstrip.com/en/2017/05/29/trapped Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 11:34
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    Chuck Norris exited vim. Twice.
    – bishop
    Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 13:36
  • @Don't Panic Use :!curl with api.stackexchange.com/docs/comments-on-questions
    – IAMZERG
    Commented Jun 21, 2017 at 0:58
  • There is no real need to exit vi. Just put it in bg and proceed to the next file. Commented Jun 21, 2017 at 16:40
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It's a fun graph, but I think it's important to remember that we can only make guesses from this data.

One of the main problems with surveys:

Self-Selection Bias - In statistics, self-selection bias arises in any situation in which individuals select themselves into a group, causing a biased sample with non-probability sampling.

We have no idea how many people decided NOT to take the survey. It could be those users who decided not to participate were also young scrappy VIM users with a strong distaste for surveys.

That's not to say that this data, or picking patterns out of graphs has no place. It very much has a place. That place however is not at the end of the story, it's at the beginning. It's not the answer. To put it another way, we use these techniques to develop hypothesis, not to answer them.

See also

Texas SharpShooter Fallacy:

Texas sharpshooter fallacy is an informal fallacy which is committed when differences in data are ignored, but similarities are stressed. From this reasoning, a false conclusion is inferred. This fallacy is the philosophical/rhetorical application of the multiple comparisons problem (in statistics) and apophenia (in cognitive psychology). It is related to the clustering illusion, which refers to the tendency in human cognition to interpret patterns where none actually exist.

The name comes from a joke about a Texan who fires some gunshots at the side of a barn, then paints a target centered on the tightest cluster of hits and claims to be a sharpshooter.

Example:

A Swedish study in 1992 tried to determine whether power lines caused some kind of poor health effects. The researchers surveyed everyone living within 300 meters of high-voltage power lines over a 25-year period and looked for statistically significant increases in rates of over 800 ailments. The study found that the incidence of childhood leukemia was four times higher among those who lived closest to the power lines, and it spurred calls to action by the Swedish government. The problem with the conclusion, however, was that the number of potential ailments, i.e. over 800, was so large that it created a high probability that at least one ailment would exhibit the appearance of a statistically significant difference by chance alone; ie. the multiple comparisons problem. Subsequent studies failed to show any links between power lines and childhood leukemia, neither in causation nor even in correlation.

Data Dredging:

Data dredging (also data fishing, data snooping, and p-hacking) is the use of data mining to uncover patterns in data that can be presented as statistically significant, without first devising a specific hypothesis as to the underlying causality.

Example

Here is a simple example. Throwing a coin five times, with a result of 2 heads and 3 tails, might lead one to hypothesize that the coin favors tails by 3/5 to 2/5. If this hypothesis is then tested on the existing data set, it is confirmed, but the confirmation is meaningless. The proper procedure would have been to form in advance a hypothesis of what the tails probability is, and then throw the coin various times to see if the hypothesis is rejected or not. If three tails and two heads are observed, another hypothesis, that the tails probability is 3/5, could be formed, but it could only be tested by a new set of coin tosses. It is important to realize that the statistical significance under the incorrect procedure is completely spurious – significance tests do not protect against data dredging.

Multiple Comparisons Problem

In statistics, the multiple comparisons, multiplicity or multiple testing problem occurs when one considers a set of statistical inferences simultaneously or infers a subset of parameters selected based on the observed values. In certain fields it is known as the look-elsewhere effect.

The more inferences are made, the more likely erroneous inferences are to occur. Several statistical techniques have been developed to prevent this from happening, allowing significance levels for single and multiple comparisons to be directly compared. These techniques generally require a stricter significance threshold for individual comparisons, so as to compensate for the number of inferences being made.

Example

Suppose we consider the efficacy of a drug in terms of the reduction of any one of a number of disease symptoms. As more symptoms are considered, it becomes increasingly likely that the drug will appear to be an improvement over existing drugs in terms of at least one symptom.

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    It's just an amusing chart made with the available data, don't take it too seriously.
    – Gabriel
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 16:16
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    Oh yeah I know, caught that from the title :) Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 16:19
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    @KellyElton It seems a few voters (me included) don't understand that your understand through the tone of your post ;) Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 16:20
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    "You can't just take arbitrary data and go searching for patterns." Well, you can, if your graphs are pretty enough.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 16:21
  • @CodyGray Awesome Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 16:22
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    @CodyGray Haha yeah for sure. It doesn't make the conclusions any more valid though. Not being a hater here, I'm just pointing this out because not everyone is aware that this is not how you draw actual conclusions. If you search for patterns in data, you will find patterns in data. Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 16:32
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    @FélixGagnon-Grenier My post doesn't have a tone, at least not intentionally. Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 16:35
  • 2
    "differences in data are ignored, but similarities are stressed" How does the original post do that?
    – svick
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 17:21
  • @svick That's a quote from the source. I've provided examples from the sources as well to make it more clear. Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 17:43
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    I don't see how is any of that relevant here. The post does not ignore 799 other statistics, it does not claim anything about statistical significance, or anything like that. You can draw conclusions from this kind of analysis, just as long as you keep in mind the limitations of the data and that the results are not statistically sound (not everything has to be).
    – svick
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 17:59
  • @svick I cleared up my wording a bit. I used the word 'conclusion', but it wasn't exactly what I meant. Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 18:26
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    Another way to illustrate the multiple comparisons problem: Spurious correlations Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 7:34
  • 1
    Another bad thing on StackOverflow survey is that sometime, not all editors are present ! You have a 'others' fields to specify your editor. In this case the OTHERS editor are underevaluated. Example: Eclipse is there, but not Netbeans. Look at pypl.github.io/IDE.html and you will see that Netbeans is 4th. Personnaly, I use Visual Studio and Notepad++. To be correct, survey result must display if Editor in in selection list or in explicit OTHERS field !
    – schlebe
    Commented Jan 26, 2019 at 6:30
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Vim is for newbies. vi is for the middle-aged. ex is for old guys. Teco is for us veterans.

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  • [1]+ Stopped vi abc.txt Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 7:51
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    I have honestly never heard of Teco before, guess age does play a role here.
    – luk2302
    Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 9:37
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    what, there were computers back then? ;) Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 20:54
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    Shameful lack of historical knowledge:( 'I hacked TECO' is kinda like the display of the Medal of Honor by a veteran soldier. All developers should show the utmost respect and salute by buying beer and pizza. Commented Jun 21, 2017 at 11:08
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I think VIM, as an IDE, is simply going out of style. It is very time consuming to setup, it is difficult to use, BUT incredibly more efficient if you set it up and use it correctly!

Perhaps that last point is the answer to this question. VIM takes 10 years to setup! :)

On another note, I'm curious as to how many users of Visual Studio, sublime, atom, etc... use vsVIM, or a similar extension? Perhaps this increased usage in VIM extensions can explain the sharp decline in VIM itself as an IDE?

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    I know I've basically transitioned completely to VIM plugins in other editors. It's probably because I've always been a predominately Windows based developer. When I'm on console though, there's no other way other than VIM. I use VSVim and Vimium Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 17:48
  • Was Vim ever "in style"? Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 6:18
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    Some years ago, I gave up trying these VIM IDE extensions, as they never were worth it. They usually failed on complex actions, in other words, right at the place were their use should eventually pay off. So my personal experience is the opposite of the trend graph; I used VIM a lot in the beginning of my programming career, when IDEs were not worth it, but not so much nowadays. However, I still have the “Edit with VIM” in the context menu of my file manager and still use it a lot, but mainly for non-programming tasks…
    – Holger
    Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 13:45
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    Speaking only for myself, I have used vi/vim since the early 90s, but in recent years as I have moved into web development, I spend most of my time in Atom (and before that, Sublime Text). In both cases I used the Vim keymap emulation. I still use Vim routinely, but usually over ssh on servers. And on a survey, I'll answer "Atom" when asked which editor I'm using, even though Vim is also still in the mix.
    – Dan Lowe
    Commented Jun 21, 2017 at 16:12
  • I set up Vim in under half an hour. People who take 10 years don't know how to use it properly.
    – zondo
    Commented Jun 22, 2017 at 3:20
  • @zondo, I'm sorry if the sarcasm was lost on you in my post. My point is that the configuration is incredibly open, and that openness can be daunting to a new programmer.
    – Andrew
    Commented Jun 26, 2017 at 20:06
  • Old habits die hard. You're much more likely to continue using what you're used to rather than using a new modern heavily marketed/advertised solution, potentially even forced on you via a college/university program.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Dec 16, 2022 at 19:05
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As with all statistics, how you interpret and present the figures is largely unrelated to the actual figures and more to do with your own bias.

"Older programmers use Vim a lot, younger programmers do not."

vs

"Experienced programmers use Vim a lot, inexperienced programmers do not."

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    Guess after 12+ years I'm still inexperienced then, or still young. Either way, I'm okay with it :)
    – Gimby
    Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 7:25
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    I started coding professionally over 30 years ago and only use vim (or vi) when forced. All I'm illustrating here is the difference between data and interpretation. Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 12:24
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You need to master multiple things to fully take advantage of Vim :

  • Know the key binds
  • Do not use the mouse
  • Be able to type fast without looking at your keyboard
  • Do not use the numpad (if you're a purist)

Personally, I've been coding for 3 years, I've tried Vim, but I can't type fast enough and don't know the keyboard layer by heart (except for WASD). Plus, I'm having a hard time getting rid of the mouse, especially for selecting text. That's why I gave up on using Vim.

I noticed that a lot of my young comrades like some "gimmick" functionalities a lot in their IDE (like pre-completion,...) while I only need something that writes text.

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  • You can select text with the mouse just fine in Vim. It's not the "Vim purist way" of doing things, but don't let that stop you. Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 22:06
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No substitute for any flavour of vi when you have to maintain sites across the world with only SSH access, a BASH shell prompt and a terminal emulator. Vi will outlive any of the other editors in this survey; of that I'm quite sure. It is for instance an entry requirement to work at our company to be proficient in vi.

Personally i've tried a hand full of times over my 20+ years career to migrate to other coding environments to be hip but I've never managed more than one day before running back to vi and makefiles as they don't get in the way of getting the job done. The closest i've gotten was when the IDE has a vi plugin but eventually the sluggishness of these GUI's breaks the camel's back.

... and Vim should be deprecated in favour of Vile which is 10x better.

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    That's just vile....
    – Celebrian
    Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 10:08
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    "It is for instance an entry requirement to work at our company to be proficient in vi." This seems like the kind of narrow-minded thinking that will prevent your company from ever having the fate you predict for Vi: "Vi will outlive any of the other editors…"
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 11:22
  • Haha, this company is 30 years old. Probably one of the oldest software companies in the country. Don't speak about things you know nothing about son.
    – Waslap
    Commented Jun 21, 2017 at 9:16
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    The elitism manifests itself strongly. Is it really beyond your imagination that there exist smart, capable programmers who just haven't learned vi? What if they know of some tool that is even better? Heck, maybe they wrote their own editor, like Bill Joy did once upon a sunny summer in Southern California. Well, your loss I guess. By the way, 30 years isn't really "old" for a software company. Silly little Microsoft was founded 42 years ago.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 21, 2017 at 12:14
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    Y'all are missing @Waslap's point -- because it's reasonable to expect 'vi' and 'make' to be available on a general-purpose *nix machine, filtering candidates by looking for those skills is kinda standard when you have a global install base with text-only remote access. It also sounds to me like the difference in perspective here is "programmer" versus "sysadmin/devops" -- we're talking about different layers. Devops folks need to be able to debug their code via remote text access; switching back and forth between text and gui is a distraction, so they tend to stick with text on both ends.
    – stevegt
    Commented Jun 21, 2017 at 18:40
-1

This graph insists that Emacs is the MOST unused/unpopular editor. That must sound crazy to anyone who is anyhow interested in this industry. Even on StackExchange itself - Emacs community is the MOST popular one. Conclusion - this data cannot be trusted.

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    "Even on StackExchange itself - Emacs community is the MOST popular one." What? Citation needed.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 21, 2017 at 12:07
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    stackexchange.com/sites#traffic Emacs is the most popular editor community on stack exchange. It has 3 times more questions in total and per day than Vim community. Commented Jun 21, 2017 at 12:17
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    Maybe that just means that Emacs is harder to use. Either way, it's not really a compelling argument when Windows Phone is beating you in a popularity contest.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 21, 2017 at 12:19

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