5

Sorry, could not find any more 'h' words to alliterate in the title.

Broad context: The question to "The Answer" about branch prediction turned into Community Wiki

It is clear that high-traffic, high-score posts attract edit trolls/rep scavengers and strain SO moderation resources. Some of the egregious edits get robo-reviewed which leads to grief and suffering.

I think Stack Overflow needs more fine-grained logic when setting review rules for the gems of our Q&A collection (no other SE sites have the traffic to warrant such measures, so I'm not posting this on Meta SE).

My suggestion is as follows (numerical parameters subject to discussion and tuning based on data):

  1. Definitions: Edit-protection is a condition set on a post, meaning the post:

    • can be edited by moderators and the original poster only;
    • allows normal up- and downvoting;
    • allows adding comments as usual.
  2. As soon as a post's net score gets over 100, three rules kick in:

    • Edit reviewers must be in consensus before an edit is approved.
    • Number of edit reviewers to approve an edit is increased.
    • The post gets onto a watch list.
  3. If a post on the watch list receives 5 edit suggestions (obviously, this number needs tuning!) it is edit-protected.

  4. Any time a mod sees unusually high number of suggested edits on a post on the watch list he/she can edit-protect the post.

Opinions and critique are very much welcome.

Another related question on Meta SE (why we still need the ability to edit old content): How do we encourage edits to obsolete/out of date answers?

Relevant queries on Data SE: https://data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/429677/suggested-edits-vs-post-score-on-stack-overflow (suggests we are dealing with 775 posts with score>=100 and number of successful edits by non-owner>=10 - not overwhelming but also not insignificant in terms of mod/reviewer burden).

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  • 5
    I think an edit lock that didn't affect the ability to vote would be swell.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 22:42
  • @GeorgeStocker - edited into the question, thanks a bunch. Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 22:47
  • 9
    The suggested edit modifications sound like overkill. If this is really such a problem, a better solution might be to just disable suggested edits completely on posts over a certain score. All this other stuff is rather unnecessary and overly complicated.
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 22:47
  • @animuson - yes, I know it's a hassle to test & debug. I considered this very idea until I recalled reading meta.stackexchange.com/questions/261817/… Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 22:52
  • Disabling suggested edits would only block users under 2,000 reputation, though. Users higher than that would still have their normal editing privileges and would be unaffected by all of the changes you're proposing here, as they do nt have to suggest edits.
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 22:56
  • @animuson - the definition of edit-protection I gave leaves editing to mods and the original posters only. Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 23:02
  • @DeerHunter Yes, but if we just completely disabled suggested edits, then reaching a threshold of 5 would never happen because low-rep users can't suggest edits, and thus edit protection would be unnecessary.
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 23:04
  • 6
    There are thousands of edit reviews and rollbacks every day. I find it very hard to believe that the dozens (?) of them on our most valued Q+A are an excessive burden. Let's not knee-jerk because of one moderator's questionable decision. Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 23:04
  • @HansPassant - we need some Data from Data SE, it seems. Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 23:06
  • The post in question has received 185 flags alone. I wish SEDE showed flags, but suffice it to say it's in the 10 ten for most flagged posts of all time.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 23:26
  • 1
    It's in the top 3, actually @George. This is #1, and you can probably guess #2 without too much eldritch horror.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jan 30, 2016 at 0:48
  • What are you referring to by "consensus" in reviews for posts over 100 score? All suggestions must already reach consensus to be applied. Commented Jan 30, 2016 at 1:37
  • 2
    @NathanTuggy I guess they mean unanimous approval. Still isn't bulletproof: latest useless edit to Branch Prediction went through 3/3. Commented Jan 30, 2016 at 1:41
  • 1
    alliterate in the title ... Remember the advice Avoid Alliteration Always Commented Feb 1, 2016 at 7:12

3 Answers 3

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Just to be clear, we had heuristics like this at one point. They triggered automatic conversion to Community Wiki.

We replaced them with moderator flags, presuming human oversight was likely to be less error-prone than fully automated actions.

We were correct. For all the hand-wringing yesterday, that's the first error in two years, out of 10 posts that would've been unnecessarily bothered by the automated system. Given the error was swiftly corrected and the heuristics tweaked in response to it, I don't see the need for further automation here.

An "edit lock" would be handy, but I'd still want that in the hands of moderators.

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  • I still don't understand how CW comes into the picture. Is what you're saying that after a sufficient number of edits a mod flag is raised about the question suggesting CW? Doesn't CW imply a loosening of edits, rather then a restriction? I might be dense today, but I feel I'm missing the point. Commented Jan 30, 2016 at 1:33
  • 3
    Forget the nature of CW; the point is that a heuristic is a poor substitute for experienced humans. The actual heuristic proposed here is a far sight less selective than the one we actually used, and that was still not great compared to getting folks to just look & see if there's anything fishy going on.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jan 30, 2016 at 1:42
  • @Shog9 - Should I post a new feature request for mod edit lock to be implemented? Commented Jan 30, 2016 at 8:37
  • 4
    I would rather instruct moderators to treat these flags as signals to ban editors and reviewers who approve garbage
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 30, 2016 at 8:45
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I don't agree with these proposed changes. I would consider myself to be a very good editor and I would also consider my changes to be very responsible. I've also earned the privilege to make direct edits to content.

And yes, I know that there are others with that privilege who really should have their edits reviewed once or twice. It cuts both ways.

Why then, would I require consensus on a post I'm editing? Why should the system trust me in one context, but not another?

From what I'm seeing that sparked this whole discussion, a way to lock a post for editing only would be preferred to locking it down entirely. Even that solution has its own problems, but that's preferable to distrusting those with the full-edit privilege.

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  • Thank you very much for your feedback. I may not agree fully with what you write re high-impact posts, but I understand your misgivings. Wikipedia has been putting layer upon layer of bureacracy and protective measures, and we certainly don't want to fall victim to Wikipedia-scale bloat. Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 23:00
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In the same vein of thought as Makoto, I would like to make a slight alternative suggestion to the restrictions. Instead of making edit protection moderator/post-owner only, let's make it a high-level privilege; protecting questions already instills a reputation requirement, anyway (admittedly a pretty low one).

Giving users the ability to edit "edit-protected" posts at, say, 10,000 reputation (the privilege level where you're already granted access to various moderation tools, anyway) would be a much better solution to me. This would greatly limit the number of users who could make edits to the top 3% of the site's users; people who almost never make bad edits, and who are typically the most interested in maintaining/improving the quality of Stack Overflow.

As someone who cares more than a little about grammar, spelling, and overall readability of posts, and since the staff's position on edits is that the smallest edit is considered beneficial (obviously there's some back-and-forth here if you're over 2k vs under 2k rep), and since I see lots and lots of old, popular posts in need of fixing, however slight (even locked answers with scores in the thousands have small typos that go uncaught years later; Marc Gravell was wrong on one small point), I would consider it a regression in the site's interface and quality if certain posts were essentially barred from improvement just because a couple people on a site with over a quarter million users tried to make a poor-quality edit.

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  • Sounds reasonable, thank you for the answer and for proofreading the question. Commented Feb 1, 2016 at 7:17

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