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Let me start by saying I love this site, and it has been extremely useful to me. There are many very knowledgeable people who are willing to help out and give good answers to questions, and this has solved a lot of problems for me. But after 3 years of using the site I ran into a situation.

The editing procedure seems to be that users with enough reputation can edit anything and then post it in place of the original question. I understand this is part of the plan to have a user-run site. However, as the very numerous discussions of edit show, this plan has some flaws.

A simple change to this protocol would be very beneficial to the site, while maintaining its user run process. Instead of making the edit, posting the change, and then notifying the helpless questioner, why not made the edit and then ask the questioner if it is okay with him/her.

There are several advantages to this approach. The most important is that is is much more respectful of the users. The top instruction on the site is "be nice". Changing someone's post without requesting input is not nice at all, and in fact openly disrepectful (and in fact illegal in some situations). It implies that the editor, due to superior knowledge and wisdom, can override the questioner. Even if that is true, which isn't always the case, there is no need to dump that attitude on anyone (as I said, disrespectful).

Another advantage is that is would substantially reduce the squabbling, a good thing in any community.

Finally it would save the questioner the need to roll back an edit he/she finds misleading, inappropriate or offensive. It can be necessary to do this, because it is not possible to just delete the post.

If the Philadelphia Inquirer can contact me with suggested edits to my letters (and it has), Stack Overflow, with its sophisticated software can surely run its edits by the user before posting them.

Personally I would not refuse any reasonable edit, even if I saw no point to it, as long as the question remained intact. I suspect most users would feel the same. Some who do not speak English well or are not good at formulating questions would probably welcome the help. But it should be help, not a power trip.

Is this a workable approach? What would be required to implement it?

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    What flaws are you describing here, specifically?
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 23:22
  • Check out meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/266901/… meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/285779/…; both of these would be no problem if the original questioner were involved. (continued)
    – Betty Mock
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 23:37
  • at least one other user has asked my question: "What process should be followed when I don't agree with a reviewer's edit of my edit? Is asking a question here on Meta the end of it or is there something else I should do?" And as we discussed on another thread, there are attribution problems when the original poster is not involved in the edit -- leaving him/her holding the bag for material he/she did not write.
    – Betty Mock
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 23:39
  • @BettyMock All changes are held in a publicly accessible revision history. If someone cares that much, they can easily show they did/didn't write a specific piece. Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 23:58
  • It seems like my suggestion is unworkable. Here is something simpler: the page detailing the edits to the OP should contain a line explaining what to do if there is a disagreement; and the original question should be marked as edited. The first is a trivial change to the software (adding a static line); the second is floating around somewhere in the SO software since on the spot edits are so marked, and could be added to this kind of edit as well. (continued)
    – Betty Mock
    Commented Jul 9, 2015 at 17:11
  • The first would avoid having people go to meta to find out what to do. The second would be only accurate; and most helpful if the editor unintentially changed the meaning of the question (as at least one editor has worried about).
    – Betty Mock
    Commented Jul 9, 2015 at 17:12

3 Answers 3

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I'm against this proposal for two reasons:

  • Firstly, as the asker of a question you already have the option of reversing any edits to your question, so there isn't any significantly new functionality here. If you think the edit is detrimental, you can rollback the edit, or just edit it back to the way it was previously. So, the only difference in your proposed scheme would be that the OP's approval would have to come before the edit was applied rather than afterwards. Which brings me to the second point:
  • Timeliness. Most edits to a question occur with a few minutes to half an hour of it being asked, during the brief window of time where it is on the front page and getting lots of views. This is a critical period because for many questions it is when it has the greatest chance of getting an answer. Often in the case of first-time askers these edits help get the question it into a state where it is more likely to be answered. As it is, edits by <2K users require the approval of 3 others before being applied, which slows down the process. If the OP's blessing was also required before these edits were applied then that would just be one more thing clogging the gears and keeping the question from being improved before it falls off the front page and into oblivion. Often, first-time askers do not stick around immediately after posting (not realizing that they will be getting near-instant feedback from other users on their question), but come back an hour or so later. Under your editing scheme, their questions would be in limbo with any edits pending their approval until then.

In most cases, edits are helpful and improve the post. In many cases (code formatting etc) they are trivial, and it's just pointless busywork to have one more person in the loop of effecting them. In the minority of cases where edits deface an question, the existing functions allow the damage to be reversed.

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The editing procedure seems to be that users with enough reputation can edit anything and then post it in place of the original question.

Yes; this is part of the edit questions and answers privilege.

Normally, an edit has to make its way through a peer review system, to determine if the edit has improved the original content or not. If it doesn't, it's usually rejected.

Instead of making the edit, posting the change, and then notifying the helpless questioner, why not made the edit and then ask the questioner if it is okay with him/her.

This won't scale. You use an example of a newspaper/magazine requesting permission to revise what you had submitted. Compare that scenario to a site like Stack Overflow, and you'd see a few differences:

  • The number of content submitters and editors to a local newspaper/magazine compared to a site like Stack Overflow could be seen as a rounding error.
  • All content on Stack Overflow is at least CC-by-SA with Attribution Required.

The licensing piece directly addresses the legality complaint; since all content is submitted under the above terms, it is legal to modify or remix it so long as attribution remains. Attribution for each edit is found in the edit history of any question or answer.

I'm not going to deny that there are some people that have taken offense to edits on their content, but so long as the edit to the content has improved what was there before, there really shouldn't be any issues. Mind you, we've stepped into a subject matter which is well above my pay grade, so take what I say with a grain of salt and have legal counsel nearby.

Another advantage is that is would substantially reduce the squabbling, a good thing in any community.

There really hasn't been all that much squabbling. Every now and then we get a flare-up of comments, but it's usually rationalized and resolved fairly quickly. It's never been that big of a deal, save for copying and pasting code into production code bases - but that's a whole 'nother discussion.


All of that to say no, I don't think we need to change anything up. The edit system we have works well; the only real disagreements with it result from a misunderstanding of what the site is, and who has what rights to what content.

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    To add to your excellent post, editing also bumps a post to the top of the "active" pages. Truly malicious edits will be spotted and rolled back very quickly (and far more often than not, these edits are by the OP, not some random 2K+ user) Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 23:59
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    I think you mean "it is legal".
    – nobody
    Commented Jul 8, 2015 at 0:16
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    @AndrewMedico: Yes, I missed that one. Why didn't you edit it? :P
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 8, 2015 at 0:34
  • Hi Makoto, as I point out on the other thread, this process as currently set up is probably in breach of your license. As for scale, Stack Overflow is software driven, and any questions about an edit can be send automatically to the user. In fact I did get a notification -- but it was ex post facto. See Samgak below about making a simple improvement to the process.
    – Betty Mock
    Commented Jul 8, 2015 at 15:25
  • Re the legality, I believe Makoto has misread the license. It says that you must maintain attribution to the original author, but it does NOT say that you can attribute your alterations to the original author. An important difference. The former makes excellent sense. That latter is most likely illegal, and in breach of the license.
    – Betty Mock
    Commented Jul 8, 2015 at 15:28
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this plan has some flaws.

A lot of things on this site has flaws.
Before I get downvoted to hell, let me expand and say:

Nearly everything in the world which has some level of complexity and caters for more than one person has flaws.
It's impossible to have a perfect system when you cater for millions.

Given the requirements of the site, and the fact it's maintained by people with so many varying opinions, I think it works pretty well as it is.

Instead of making the edit, posting the change, and then notifying the helpless questioner

The questioner is not helpless, at any rep level they can re-edit their question to change bits of the edit they didn't like, or roll back the entire thing.

why not made the edit and then ask the questioner if it is okay with him/her

Because the OP might not be around to approve the edits, and in the meantime their question might be downvoted, or closed.
So it helps them too!

Also, this is then no longer a "community driven site", and OPs have too much ownership over their content.
Sure, OPs get their question answered, but the Q&as are supposed to be to help more than the OP, and if the question needs editing to be improved then it should be.
There are not many scenarios where an edit improves the question and the OP would not be happy about it.

So you lose out on community control and thereby fast improvements to content, just to give more control to the OPs.
I see no point.

Also, and this is not intended to be offensive to anyone, sometimes (maybe often) the OP doesn't know that the edit is better for them and the site.
New users aren't familiar with the concept that their content is supposed to help more people than just them. So with your system a lot of OPs would just reject the edits.

What if the OP never accepts or rejects? What happens then?
The edit sits there forever? Auto accepted/rejected?
This would happen a fair bit, and this = more/lots of poor questions.


Advantages

the most important is that is is much more respectful of the users.

Changing someone's post without requesting input is not nice at all, and in fact openly disrepectful (and in fact illegal in some situations).

I don't think users spending their time helping someone improve their question is disrespectful at all.

Not only is it not illegal here, it's part of the terms people agree to that their content will be edited.
It's part of what makes the Stack Exchange sites work so well. No, it's not perfect, but it's better than the alternative (forums etc) and sitting waiting for a moderator to get time to edit the post.

The "rules" are well documented and linked to, as well as other info stating that content can be edited. It's not just hidden in the small print in the TOS.
It's in the Help Center, Tour, etc.

It's not like someone edits to make it their own question, it is supposed to be an improvement which helps the OP get a better answer. I cannot emphasise it enough - it's in their interests to have their question as high quality as possible, and as quickly as possible.

It implies that the editor, due to superior knowledge and wisdom, can override the questioner. Even if that is true, which isn't always the case

It's not about "superiority", you seem to have made it about that.

there is no need to dump that attitude on anyone (as I said, disrespectful).

I'm not sure where you are getting this "attitude" problem from.
It's only fabricated in your question here, and then you seem to run with it as if it's how the site is.

Sure, some questions get bad edits, or even malicious ones now and then I would imagine.
But for the X thousands of questions/edits every day, the majority of edits are mostly improvements - people trying to help each other.

Another advantage is that is would substantially reduce the squabbling, a good thing in any community.

What squabbling?

Regardless of if there is squabbling or not:
You may argue it reduces "squabbling" but it also drastically reduces many other things more detrimental to any possible squabbling which may occur.

And, as with any large group of people, it wouldn't stop it it would just change it.
If people are squabbling over something now, they'll just squabble over the new thing - "why won't this OP accept my edit" - "why did this OP reject my edit", etc.

Finally it would save the questioner the need to roll back an edit he/she finds misleading, inappropriate or offensive. It can be necessary to do this, because it is not possible to just delete the post.

How many edits are "misleading, inappropriate or offensive" compared to how many are perfectly fine?

Neither of us know the answer to that, so I cannot claim you are wrong, but you cannot claim your argument is valid either.
You'd need some facts/data to even begin to argue this is a problem.

If the Philadelphia Inquirer can contact me with suggested edits to my letters (and it has), Stack Overflow, with its sophisticated software can surely run its edits by the user before posting them.

The two are entirely different things. Comparing in the way you have brings no valid argument for anything really.
It's like saying "Twitter only allow 160 chars, so Stack Overflow should too".

Personally I would not refuse any reasonable edit, even if I saw no point to it,

If there is no point to it then it should be rejected.
Otherwise the editor will just go around the site making other pointless edits. And this is a waste of site resources, and the OPs time.

Some who do not speak English well or are not good at formulating questions would probably welcome the help.

Or they would ignore the edit because they do not understand it, and it would sit there.

But it should be help, not a power trip.

Again, I do not know why you feel there is a bad smell in the air.
If you've had some bad experience, I am sorry, perhaps it could be addressed differently?

Either way, I don't see any power trips. And if these power trips do exist as you claim when community review is in play, won't it get worse if we shift responsibility from X users to 1 user?

The top instruction on the site is "be nice".

Not really, there are many "top" requirements, and not one more important than the other.



I really think you are trying to fix something which is not broken, and mostly because you feel OPs are badly done to, and should have more control.

While I'm against your idea for reasons I've outlined, I also don't think you have provided any real arguments as to why your idea should be implemented.
There simply isn't the sour grapes on the site you seem think there is, nor a problem with the edit system.
OPs are not badly done to, they get their question edited by helpful users, and can re-edit or rollback if they wish.

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  • Couldn't disagree with you more. Will not cover all your points but: of course there are flaws everywhere. That doesn't mean we should never try to improve things... Simple administration suggests that if the OP does not weigh in on edits then they are assumed agreed to ...There certainly are trivial edits, also edits that change the question, etc....re overriding someone's post without permission, you are welcome to your opinion, but many people would agree it is disrespectful. If it is an improvement, surely I would agree to it so no problem.
    – Betty Mock
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 23:47
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    "Simple administration suggests that if the OP does not weigh in on edits then they are assumed agreed to" Not at all. Just because they were not involved in the decision making does not leave them out. First they can be involved in the decision making, and secondly even after decision is completed they can still edit or rollback. They have control. "also edits that change the question" these should be rolled back. You argue these points, but your proposal does not fix them. OPs would auth trivial and bad edits. On top of them rejecting so many people would stop bothering to edit.
    – James
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 23:51
  • The notification of the edit does not say that it can be rolled back, nor provide any instructions for doing so. I had to get on meta and complain in order to find out that a rollback is possible, and I still haven't figured out how to do it. Samgak below makes a much better case for the process, and see my comments about improving it.
    – Betty Mock
    Commented Jul 8, 2015 at 15:21

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