93

Very occasionally I find users who make deliberate writing errors for stylistic effect, such as all lower-case, txtspk, missing punctuation and so forth. Since I frequently edit posts, these sorts of contributors seem to me to be working against the aims of the site, which is to present programming questions and answers in as readable a fashion as possible.

I have encountered this sort of thing before, nearly two years ago, and the user in that case finally mended their ways (and is now of considerable rep). One of the answers on my linked Meta post summarises what I have taken to be a guideline for Stack Overflow:

There is an expectation that users of Stack Overflow treat the site like a professional resource. For the most part, that means using proper spelling, grammar and punctuation. It's an important enough issue to be baked into the system in several ways.

"This is my personal style" is not an acceptable excuse, nor is posting from a cell phone. Find a real computer to post your questions with.

Flag one of their "stylish" posts with a custom explanation, describing what the problem is. We will take the appropriate action.

Emboldened by this policy, I recently asked the author of this question to avoid lower-case posting. His posts also tend towards a rather chatty style, and often need editing. I have received this response in the comments:

have fun editors! by the way, every single website i use in the world i use this way, im human, and this is the way i write! :-)

I have taken this to mean that the OP does not care that their material is creating work, and that they intend to persist. I therefore flagged it for mod attention, but the flag has been pending for eight days, and in my experience a flag that is that old will eventually just be marked as "helpful" and the issue at hand will have passed. I should have made reference in my custom flag message to the above link, so that a mod can see how this sort of thing has been dealt with before (I've tried to add another report, but I get the reply "You have already flagged this question").

Is flagging still the best way to handle this problem? On the other Meta question, it was felt that this issue is tag-dependent: Android is usually of such poor quality generally that it's not worth the effort. However, for all the problems the PHP tag has, I think it is worth encouraging posters there to make an effort with their writing (with appropriate leeway, of course, for posters whose first language is not English).


Final thoughts, after accepting an answer. My original hope was that the user in this case receive a private note from a moderator, but in light of the community's wishes, I have modified my policy of making this sort of thing a moderation matter.

It has been suggested that raising this sort of thing in future with the Meta community (either here or in the chatroom) is also not ideal, as it could raise a voting mob. Unfortunately this post seems to have had that effect, and the user in question has (at the time of writing) weathered -31 for declining to co-operate. I think that's probably enough, so can we now leave him be? His future questions may yet show he is willing to turn over a new leaf.

23
  • 2
    If the "style" is so bad that the post is not useful, you can always downvote. May 8, 2015 at 22:12
  • 2
    @Bradley: yes, I did on this occasion, but it seems not to have had an effect. I guess some people are so wedded to their writing style (or are just stubborn in general :-) they don't mind weathering the odd downvote for it.
    – halfer
    May 8, 2015 at 22:16
  • 22
    I don't think flagging is appropriate in this case, because moderators don't need to be involved with this. Personally I just downvote in such cases, especially if they're blatantly refusing to fix their question. They'll learn the lesson once they're question banned. May 8, 2015 at 22:17
  • 5
    @Chris: do you think (moderator) Robert Harvey's recommendation from my linked post is now incorrect for Stack Overflow? (That question was originally posted on MSO, but was moved to MSE during the site split). My view is that downvoting is not enough - I can only downvote the user once (so as not to vote-stalk them, which is fair enough) and thus will probably have limited effect.
    – halfer
    May 8, 2015 at 22:19
  • 5
    In the case of SO, where mods (from what I hear) already have enormous flag backlogs to address, I think it's probably incorrect in all but the most egregious cases. I would expect those egregious cases to take care of themselves, unless the person is actually asking really great questions (earning upvotes which prevent a question ban) but deliberately using poor style. It just feels to me like something that the community can handle. May 8, 2015 at 22:22
  • Alright, thanks @Chris. I'll see if any other views come in, but otherwise I may be inclined to change my policy of flagging this sort of thing. In the previous case it was probably the Meta question that encouraged the OP to mend their ways, but I don't know if I want to write a duplicate Meta question every time this comes up (which, to be fair, is not often).
    – halfer
    May 9, 2015 at 0:01
  • 45
    He explicitly says "however, i dont appreciate the downvote, if its based on repeated lower case." So, as long as you make it clear to him that the downvote is based on his refusing to write with proper style, I think that should be enough to get through to him. He cares about his rep, he knows he's losing rep because of his style, now he has to decide which he cares about more. Whether that leads him to write properly, try to write even better questions to compensate for the "unfairly" lost rep, or rage-quit SO, we win in every scenario, right?
    – abarnert
    May 9, 2015 at 0:15
  • 9
    @abarnert: you may be right. His latest meandering effort, complete with LOLs and shouty caps, at least contains some sentence casing. Spotted in the revision notes: "i capitalized this for my capital letter nazi fan lol", heh.
    – halfer
    May 9, 2015 at 7:58
  • 1
    "but the flag has been pending for eight days" I have flags that have been pending for 3 weeks. I think the mods are just way behind for some reason. Flagging does not seem to be a good idea for any timely response these days.
    – Radiodef
    May 9, 2015 at 16:29
  • 1
    @Radiodef: I thought another one I had for a month was just because a mod had reserved it for later handling by themselves, forgotten about it, and then cleared it when there was no longer any point in dealing with it. Has a backlog been discussed here on Meta?
    – halfer
    May 9, 2015 at 16:43
  • 1
    No, a backlog has not been discussed that I'm aware of. However, all of the custom mod flags I've raised recently have taken 2-3 weeks to process. A backlog is a possible guess. If this is a reservation->forget or, as I've sometimes also thought, maybe skipping, it appears to be common.
    – Radiodef
    May 9, 2015 at 16:49
  • Did you intentionally add an English mistake to your first paragraph? "which is to present a programming questions and answers in as readable a fashion as possible."
    – Sammaye
    May 11, 2015 at 10:44
  • @Sammaye, heh! :-] Aha, the singular/plural forms - oops! Good spot (not a test, no).
    – halfer
    May 11, 2015 at 11:32
  • 1
    Sorry couldn't help myself :P, it is always one of those things you do when you spot it
    – Sammaye
    May 11, 2015 at 11:44
  • 2
    I guess it's good that he's modified his style in response to the Meta effect downvotes . OTOH, I'd be tempted to flag "my capital letter nazi fan" as abusive. He might not think the word "nazi" is much of an insult, but that's no excuse for using potentially inflammatory language, IMHO.
    – PM 2Ring
    May 11, 2015 at 12:04

4 Answers 4

40

While I agree that the poor writing style, and especially the unrepentant adherence to it, is annoying, this does not seem to me to rise to the need of moderator intervention.


Even for issues that are clearly and officially stated as Stack Overflow policy, bringing a moderator into the loop is often not the right response. For example, people are supposed to search the site and not ask questions that have been asked before. They are also supposed to provide a minimal, complete code example when asking for debugging help, and/or to show what they've accomplished so far. These requirements are right there in the Tour and Help Center pages. But when a post fails to meet these requirements, there are community-driven actions we take, rather than flagging for moderator intervention.


I took a look at the couple of posts you referenced, and I agree 100% they should have been better-written. It is especially irritating to see the person's edit comments which clearly include a personal jab at you and others who share your viewpoint.

But on the other hand, I see so many poorly-written posts here on Stack Overflow, many far worse than what that guy's done. At the end of the day, while clarity of expression is important, it's not the only thing and I think each post needs to be judged on all of its merits.

I've seen horribly written questions that have some real depth and which address an important need; cleaning these questions up and providing a good answer have a clear benefit to the site, and just because the OP couldn't be bothered to do that work, doesn't mean they need to be moderated or even that the question has a net negative effect.

Similarly, I've seen very well-presented questions that are useless. Either they're a duplicate, or they ask some very broad question that's off-topic, or whatever.

So, as a community, we close well-presented-but-otherwise-inappropriate questions, and on a time-available basis we answer, and even clean up poorly-presented questions.

At the end of the day, any question that is poorly-presented in this way (spelling, capitalization, inappropriate abbreviations, etc.) really amounts to a lack of consideration on the part of the questioner. Some are just more overtly inconsiderate than others.


Bottom line, I don't think we can be going to the moderators every time someone just refuses to capitalize, or to avoid improper abbreviations, or to refrain from being too chatty. We have tools at our disposal: down-voting for poorly-expressed/unclear/non-useful questions, and close votes for posts that are outright off-topic or otherwise unsuitable for Stack Overflow.

Moderators have enough work to do as it is. We should leave the moderator flag for situations where the post is actively harming the site in a way that cannot be addressed by non-moderators.


As an aside: it seems to me that your question as written (which amounts to "should we use moderator flags here?") is different from the title of the question ("what's the most effective way…"). It would in fact be useful to also know what the most effective way is (other than the obvious "downvote" answer), but frankly that amounts to social engineering, manipulation through psychology, and I'm just not that good at stuff like that. So I'm sticking with what I know in the above. :)

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    I mostly agree with all this, and I think in light of some of the comments and the answers I have received, I will refrain from flagging these in the future - thanks. My minor point of difference, responding to "the many poorly-written posts here", is that the case in point is deliberate. Most poor writing that we see every day is either because the user does not have a command of good writing skills, or that they are unaware that Stack Overflow is not a forum. In the several years I've been here, I think I can count "writing saboteurs" on the fingers of one hand.
    – halfer
    May 9, 2015 at 19:19
  • As it turns out, the Meta effect in this case (and in the last one) seems to be working. Would you say that, if my individual downvote is not persuasive, and a moderator flag is regarded as inappropriate, that an occasional (and essentially duplicate) Meta post is a good way of handling this? Sort of "would the community intervene" rather than a moderator?
    – halfer
    May 9, 2015 at 19:21
  • "Would you say that...an occasional (and essentially duplicate) Meta post is a good way of handling this" -- in my opinion, probably not. I'm far from an expert on the topic, but my understanding is that it is more typical, if you want to bring stuff like this to the community's attention, to use a relevant chat room. Note that I say that only based on my observations; I have no idea what the official policy is, if any. May 9, 2015 at 22:36
  • Peter, thanks. There probably isn't a policy as such, just normal practice - and that sounds like a good approach.
    – halfer
    May 9, 2015 at 23:08
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    @halfer: As I said on the comments to my answer, I think the chat room is warranted if you really are trying to organize a posse to give this guy a good seein' to because you think it's necessary and beneficial in this case, but don't pretend that's not what you're doing.
    – abarnert
    May 10, 2015 at 1:45
  • 4
    As a moderator, I agree. If you think the posts offer great insight that the wilfully poor writing style only seeks to dilute, you'll be doing the community a huge service by fixing up the post - and only involving us should the user then fight those efforts by starting a rollback war. Otherwise, if you think the post isn't worth its salt, and you hate poorly-written posts, downvote and let them stew.
    – BoltClock
    May 10, 2015 at 3:26
  • Thanks @BoltClock. In light of these answers, if you wish to cancel the pending flag and consider it handled already, that's fine by me.
    – halfer
    May 10, 2015 at 8:20
  • @BoltCLock, i agree with the first if condition, its your else condition that caught my eye. So, just make sure your down-voting the OP(did you catch that? it was my only point), not just as an ass-kissing fashion of adding flame to something that a famous-mod-with-a-following of down-votes ensues. That's the whiff i got a taste of, and it kinda stunk, personally. Thus far, some characters in here is proved me wrong, others not yet. If i am to be a comfortable member here, i either those remaining do need to show either some maturity, diplomacy, and or self control, them i'm good there too
    – blamb
    May 11, 2015 at 22:08
  • I had to edit, something came off wrong in that last comment. I wanted to clarify, the place i got that whiff, was not here, or anything you said @BoltClock, but in my OP last week with the downvotes, not because i asked a question in lowercase, but becaue of the mods responses in the OP. Thats kind of absurd isnt it to allow this community behaviour?? Downvote the OP because of the mod? I mean. cant every mod make his own opinion on my post? SHOULD MODES EVEN BE ALLOWED TO EVEN SEE OTHER MODS COMMENTS UNTIL THEY THEMSELVES HAVE COMMENTED UNBIASED??
    – blamb
    May 11, 2015 at 22:15
  • @Brian: there was no moderator response on your question - all of those users are ordinary users (though one, who requested the use of correct casing and the avoidance of txtspk, does have high rep). What you have experienced is sometimes called The Meta Effect - a phenomenon where a question is drawn attention to on this separate site, and readers up/down vote accordingly. Some people see each vote as a separate event based on individual choices, others see it as a group behaviour where people feel encouraged to vote in a similar way. Difficult to say!
    – halfer
    May 12, 2015 at 8:06
  • Hmm.. Interesting.
    – blamb
    May 12, 2015 at 19:17
26

I like Animuson's response from the original question you posted.

The simple fact is, some people just don't care enough to use the Shift key, just like some don't care to hit the ' key when appropriate. They've adapted themselves to an alternate way of typing that is irritating to some people.

The main thing here is that some people will just type that. The only three things we could do are:

  • Edit the post for grammar correctness, or
  • Downvote as it is "not useful", or
  • Vote to Close as being "Unclear".

Unless the user is actively engaging in reverting edits that have better grammar in favor of the txtspeak style, flagging for moderator attention should not be done.

9
  • Thanks Makoto. Alright, I will amend my policy of flagging in this case, since there seems to be some unanimity on the matter. My minor feedback on the post you refer to was that it was written based on the premise that we don't know the OP is writing stylistically. However, in this case we do - the OP has admitted it, and doesn't care. I think that deserves some sanction, and it is rare enough that handling it (IMO) does not present us with too much of a burden. I have suggested on the other answer that a Meta post per instance seems to be working well.
    – halfer
    May 9, 2015 at 19:25
  • That's tough to say. That could just be how they type. I wouldn't assume malice necessarily, but I assume one could deal with them in the same way we deal with users who don't post in English.
    – Makoto
    May 9, 2015 at 20:51
  • Ah, okay. I think we disagree there - I think malice is quite evident from the comment (especially "have fun editors" - do as much work as you like, I don't care). Thanks for the response though.
    – halfer
    May 9, 2015 at 21:19
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    This is basically a tl;dr of Peter Duniho's answer with the additional comment about rollback wars. Likewise I agree - that is one of the only situations in which a moderator should be involved.
    – BoltClock
    May 10, 2015 at 3:27
  • closing as "unclear" for the lack of capitalization is evil.
    – jfs
    May 10, 2015 at 22:17
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    @J.F.Sebastian: im not tlking about just the lack of caps, i mean the lack of grammer or wording or sth to make the content unclear. i hope u get wht im saying since its rly hard to type like this just 2 make an xample.
    – Makoto
    May 11, 2015 at 0:03
  • 1
    "The only three things we could do are..." - disagree. The site could easily add a filter for this sort of thing, and deny the submission until it better adheres to site policy. I'd rather see Stack Overflow deny the submission because Stack Overflow is full of so much junk....
    – jww
    May 11, 2015 at 0:24
  • The low quality filter does this to an extent. Perhaps what you're suggesting is a strengthening of that algorithm, of which I do agree. I would caution though: "full of junk" is highly subjective and it entirely depends on what you're referring to specifically.
    – Makoto
    May 11, 2015 at 0:34
  • yes. Your comment is less legible but it is not less comprehensible. It is dangerous to encourage "Unclear" close reason usage to mean the former instead of the latter. If you are creating a power tool; it is your responsibility to make it safe (hard to misuse).
    – jfs
    May 11, 2015 at 11:35
10

Of course it depends on the particular user, but at least in some cases, downvoting, and (politely) explaining why you downvoted, should be the most effective option. (Of course the Meta effect caused by a question like this can speed up the process, but it shouldn't usually be necessary.)

Not every user cares enough about rep for this to do anything at all—but in this case, the user in question explicitly says, "however, i dont appreciate the downvote, if its based on repeated lower case." Which means he only has a few choices:

  • Stop using that style.
  • Find some way to compensate for his "unfairly" lost rep—maybe by writing questions and answers that are so much better in every other way that he stays ahead of the game.
  • Come to meta and try to argue his case and learn that he's wrong.
  • Get progressively angrier about how "unfair" SO is until he rage-quits.

The first three are clear wins for SO. The last, you have to judge the user's contributions to decide whether it would be better to have him around and annoying than not around at all, and, if so, decide whether the risk is worth it.

(Of course he also might try to take revenge on you by stalking and serially downvoting or something like that, but that's really no different than any other time you give comments in support of a downvote.)

5
  • I have doubts that a downvote from a single user will change the mind of a stubborn individual, but I agree with most of this. I think most people who do not come to Meta can either tolerate deliberately poor writing, or perhaps do not write very well themselves, and so do not notice it. Peter on another answer suggests a chatroom to bring this sort of thing to the attention of Meta-dwellers, which seems like a good idea to me (whilst it is frowned upon to ask others to DV a particular post, I think asking for feedback on a post will usually independently result in that).
    – halfer
    May 9, 2015 at 22:43
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    @halfer: I don't want to encourage people to cheat the system. Trying to use the meta effect or the chat room effect to create a mob is still trying to create a mob even if you preface it by saying "Of course I'm not saying I want you all to go to his castle with pitchforks and torches and downvotes, I just want to know whether you all agree with me that someone should go to his castle with pitchforks and torches and downvotes…" If you think a mob is warranted, be open about it; if you don't, don't play coy and organize a mob "by accident".
    – abarnert
    May 10, 2015 at 1:42
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    @halfer: Meanwhile, in my experience, downvoting with an explanation tends to encourage downvotes (without explanation) from people who agree—unless the person defends their post appropriately (or you're being an ass), in which case it tends to encourage upvotes from people who disagree. That feels a lot more fair. It isn't likely that the SO community in general will agree with this guy that capital letters are for chumps, and if they do, that sucks… but if that's what happens, you have to accept it. And on the other hand, if they agree with you, their votes will speak for you.
    – abarnert
    May 10, 2015 at 1:43
  • Heh, I think your approach to organising a mob is much better than my way ;-)
    – halfer
    May 10, 2015 at 8:15
  • But, I don't disagree. Maybe comment/vote/move on is the best way - I just have to keep my OCD under control now!
    – halfer
    May 10, 2015 at 8:16
7

What is the most effective way of encouraging a user not to make deliberate writing errors?

I think the most effective way to handle a majority of the cases is to put a filter in place. The filter will help promote compliance with site policies, and help reduce the number of sub-standard submissions.

It would be most effective for many situations because:

  1. it teaches the user about site policies
  2. it teaches the user how to use the site in an acceptable manner
  3. it enforces site policies
  4. it denies many junk submissions
  5. it relieves the editor of the burden
  6. it avoids retaliation and serial down voting

There will still be corner cases that slip though. But they can be handled in a one-off fashion or per-question basis. Handling them in one-off fashion or per-question basis is what we have now, but for all of them.

The filter for "text speak" has already been asked for, but nothing was done. See Hold questions that use “text speak”?.


I'll address this in particular because its one of those things that makes my blood boil. Actually, I don't have to address it because Josh Caswell did a good job of addressing it on another post:

have fun editors! by the way, every single website i use in the world i use this way, im human, and this is the way i write! :-)

Josh's response:

-1 for casting "I suck when I post everywhere else on the web, so why can't I suck when I post on SE" as an acceptable attitude. You want to play in our sweet ballcourt? Play by our rules...


One of the biggest problems with Stack Overflow is lack of user education. The filter addresses the user education problem as detailed in (1), (2) and (3).

Effectively, a user who shuns site policy or develops bad habits is allowed to continue without responsibility or accountability. So a little problem that could be corrected early proliferates geometrically. And because a user does not learn they way things are done, they cannot teach other new users. So they other users eventually dump their exponential quantity of deficient questions on us.

As a matter of fact, Take the Tour is optional. They don't even have to learn how to use the site in its most basic form before posting. Hell, I would give them a quiz and make them pass the quiz if it reduces all those junk questions we see.

You can tell programmers run the Stack Exchange network because RTFM is expected, and they often don't know how to deal with other cases (q.v.). If RTFM was going to work, then it would have happened in the last 40 or 50 years or so...


Maybe the next question to ask is: Why hasn't a similar filter been put in place?

5
  • 4
    I think some more filtering would be an excellent idea (we already do this for certain trigger works in the title, and code posts without any body, and a few other things). I've already suggested a couple of phrases that happen hundreds of times a week, would be easy to detect, and never have any value in the body of a post. The above question remains a feature request, no notes as to whether it might be implemented as far as I can see.
    – halfer
    May 11, 2015 at 0:55
  • (I should add I am in favour of optional filters to start with, to see how it modifies user behaviour and edit workload. It could be made mandatory later on, but there's always the risk of false positives).
    – halfer
    May 11, 2015 at 9:02
  • "Josh's response"... -- mischaracterizes the attitude of the post to which he was commenting. No one is saying the attitude is acceptable. Just that we need to take the high road when dealing with it. As far as filtering goes, there are limits there too; not only would a filter fail to catch all problematic posts, it would also block posts that are perfectly fine (or at least "close enough"). And frankly, it's like copy-protection; it's better to accept that some undesirable content will occur, than to annoy the users who are honestly trying to help. May 11, 2015 at 16:38
  • 1
    @Peter - "As far as filtering goes, there are limits there too..." - agreed. But it sounds like a typical plea to over thinking and over engineering. You are worried about the 1% or 5% of corner cases, so you don't do anything about 95% of the problems. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
    – jww
    May 11, 2015 at 18:37
  • @Peter - "it would also block posts that are perfectly fine..." - yep. I've had it happen to me when summarizing an issue in a title (something about not meeting quality standards, which seemed incorrect to me). It was easy enough to work around ... I just "improved" the title.
    – jww
    May 11, 2015 at 18:39

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