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A few months/years back I answered a question about the comparison of AngularJS and Dojo (two JavaScript frameworks). At that time I wasn't familiar with the rules so I still attempted to answer it instead of voting to close.

Recently the question got deleted for reasons of moderation, and though I agree that it should be closed (like it was), I'm not sure if deleting the question is actually helpful or not.

As far as I know only questions that are extremely off topic/low quality and are unlikely to help any other people are deleted, so I wonder why the question got deleted. (https://stackoverflow.com/questions/16463059/angularjs-over-dojo/16473255#16473255)

Looking at the amount of views (I can't see it anymore though), should give a view of how many people actually found the question and thought it was helpful (though it's a gorilla vs shark question).

And right now, we're a few weeks ahead and I'm noticing that the same question is being asked again: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/29790291/angularjs-and-dojo-comparison#29790291 This question should probably be closed, but if the original question/answer was still there, that question might not have been asked and the OP might have been helped (sounds like a win to me).

Can I improve the original question/answer to make it ontopic so it can be undeleted, or is it simply a waste of time?
And more generally, isn't it a better idea to have these questions (even closed)? While the question/answer may not be the best quality, it (kinda) prevents that the same question pops up again.

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    "Can I improve the original question/answer to make it ontopic?" - I highly doubt it (although I have not seen the actual question yet). But it could be a good case for a historical lock, as long as its content is valuable.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Apr 22, 2015 at 7:32
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    It doesn't generally prevent similar questions from appearing; the people who don't check whether it's on topic are often the same people who don't look for duplicates. Indeed, many users will dredge up old, now-off-topic questions to support their new off-topic question (a historical lock at least makes it clear that this isn't acceptable).
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Apr 22, 2015 at 8:32
  • @jonrsharpe true, that's why I added the "(kinda)" to it. It might be a coincidence, but in the few months/year that the link was posted, I've never seen another of the same type of question (and I actively look at the Dojo tag). The question got removed not long ago and then that other question appears. Commented Apr 22, 2015 at 8:34
  • You probably have better odds asking for the rep loss to be avoided when a post is deleted a year after it was written. Which is fair, after all your post was useful for a while until you stopped maintaining it. Otherwise, I think, the usual reason why it is so difficult to fix these broken windows. Commented Apr 22, 2015 at 10:49
  • I can't see the question but if stackoverflow.com/questions/14994391/…" is open and protected I don't see why the other is determined to be so unhelpful/off topic it needed deleted.
    – robbmj
    Commented Apr 23, 2015 at 3:10
  • There has not been any rep loss if the post had score of 3 and 6 months visible, nothing to argue there.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 23, 2015 at 3:33
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    To me, such "comparison questions" have been of great value on StackOverflow. They often contain valuable points of different frameworks as well as list of alternatives Commented Apr 23, 2015 at 5:16
  • related: Can questions that ask for a comparison be constructive?
    – starball
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 22:13

6 Answers 6

14

I'm on the fence about this particular question, but in general:

  • Questions like this are subjective and lead to a lot of debate as opposed to first-hand experience.

  • Comparing two things together only makes sense if they're similar. Dojo is a toolkit more than a framework, and AngularJS is most definitely a framework.

  • The question just reads like it's inviting open discussion instead of an objective answer:

    We know that AngularJS is a framework and Dojo is a mature JavaScript toolkit and the granddaddy of modern JS framework/libraries suitable for enterprise-level apps.

    Is it reasonable to compare AngularJS and Dojo? When building an enterprise app, what factors might lead a developer to choose AngularJS over Dojo?

    The last sentence alone makes it a broad question to answer.

I don't know what improvements you could do to make this on-topic; the crux of the question is asking, "Which should I choose: Dojo or AngularJS?" This is also asked without any context as to the problem being solved, or the specific use cases (enterprise-level apps are using Angular too, as I would imagine the same being true of Dojo).

Perhaps the real reason I'm on the fence is that your answer is pretty good. I want to keep good answers around, but I really don't want this sort of question around. I'd be okay with a wiki lock, but the question kind of weirds me out.

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    Or, perhaps, ask the question the right way.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 23, 2015 at 3:32
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    If the answer is useful, why not get the asker to reform the question in such a way that it provides some context for the answer to exist?
    – maulik13
    Commented Apr 23, 2015 at 5:14
  • @maulik13 : If I knew a way to ask a question for comparing 2 frameworks that could be on topic here I would already have submitted an edit because g00glen00b's answer is a nice answer as objective as it can be. But by definition such questions are off topic. Commented Apr 23, 2015 at 6:19
  • @SergeBallesta I agree that it is indeed very difficult to come up with a good enough question for X vs Y category. If somehow a question can be formed around a good answer though we could avoid losing a good answer that somebody put effort into and that can benefit others.
    – maulik13
    Commented Apr 23, 2015 at 11:25
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Questions which are closed or put on-hold are done so for one of two reasons:

  1. To give the original poster the opportunity to improve the question and make it on-topic for Stack Overflow so it may be reopened and answered.
  2. In the case of a duplicate question, to serve as a signpost the duplicate, directing traffic to it.

In the context of point #1, if a question cannot be edited into an on-topic question following the rules and guidelines of StackOverflow, then it does not belong on the site and should be deleted.

The only exception I would make would be for questions that happen to garner good, quality answers before they are closed or put on-hold. Content is king and we don't want to delete good content, period.

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YES these questions should be definitely be deleted.

JavaScript frameworks move really fast and change from version to version. Comparison questions are often very opinion based anyway and what happens is that they end up containing a lot of misinformation.

So while choosing a framework is a real problem programmers face - these questions turn into "my framework is better because" which often ends up ignoring the differences as the frameworks evolve. These cause a real problem as they deliver a lot of false information - while these questions are valuable from an SEO perspective they end up reducing the quality of SO overall.

The worst things you can do to these questions is lock/close them - this will guarantee that they will become outdated and will give developers false information.


Note that questions asking about specific aspects of a framework or a component objectively are fine (like the differences between dojo/request and $http in a specific scenario) and don't have the problems mentioned above.

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  • Your answer by the way would make a pretty good blog post, people treat those differently since they realize they're time dependent and more opinionated than a SO answer. Commented Apr 23, 2015 at 5:48
  • But doesn't that mean that all questions related to JavaScript frameworks become outdated once? Commented Apr 23, 2015 at 5:52
  • @g00glen00b some will, some don't. "How does data-binding work in Knockout" will likely never be outdated (if you consider KO a framework), a "Angular has $http and Knockout doesn't have any way to make web requests" is not a very good argument in a framework comparison. Not to mention these turn out to be very opinionated questions that spread misinformation - especially locked ones. Commented Apr 23, 2015 at 6:04
  • I see it like this: the only valid framework comparisons are those instigated by a specific need. As an example, you might be looking for very specific security characteristics. Thus you need comparisons based on THAT characteristic, and not a generic "framework A vs framework B". IF the question has that particular specific need at its base, then MAYBE it is possible to give a valid answer that can stand the test of time and help multiple people. But generic comparisons to me are already misinformation themselves; a desperate attempt to "catch all" which is doomed to fail.
    – Gimby
    Commented Apr 23, 2015 at 12:30
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    @Gimby I completely agree - that's what the last aspect of the answer is about. Commented Apr 23, 2015 at 12:33
  • @BenjaminGruenbaum about the blog post, I gave it a thought and I decided to put it on my blog. However, I cannot access the original question/answer as I don't have 10k rep. I tried the way back machine and google cache to find it, but without results. Is it possible someone can give me the original contents of the answer (on a pastebin or so)? Or should I best ask this to a mod or wait until I get 10k points? Commented Apr 23, 2015 at 19:42
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I know that such questions are off topic and should not be asked because they attract low quality answers with high noise level for little signal.

I also know that low quality questions with no accepted or upvoted answers are deleted. And I also know that terrible questions can be deleted even with upvoted answers

But here an old closed question has been deleted and IMHO :

  • as it was already closed it could not attract any answer
  • g00glen00b's answer was good with a high level/noise ratio and as much objectivity as can be put in such answers

The only reason I can imagine for deleting the question is that it constitute an example of off topic question that was once accepted. But :

  • most askers of opinion based question are recent users that have not done a lot of research on SO to see what questions can be asked and how they should be
  • for the little part that do some research, they could find the answer and avoid asking same question again
  • it is easy to say that in these old days that question was accepted but that the site is now more mature with plenty of information and that we have now a more restrictive policy

That's the reason why, while I agree that in general case questions asking for opinion based answers must be closed ASAP and deleted, in that particular case I think that this question should not have beed deleted.

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Comparison of frameworks is not purely objective. Genuine information is often gained by the user that gives them a heads up about the pros and cons of their options.

Sure, answers like "framework X is stinky mush" don't give us much to go on.

But there are usually much better answers than that, and there is no reason to delete actual information that was provided.

Also sometimes actual information looks subjective, but is genuine information. Years of experience using something may accumulate into useful suggestions.

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In my opinion, these questions - and all other "opinion" questions - should NOT be deleted. My reasons are as follows.

First, often even the framing of a question can be helpful to others with a similar enquiry; also, any answers that slip in before the question is closed/deleted can also be very useful. For instance, I've often spotted questions and answers that received many upvotes before the questions were closed. There is no benefit to our StackX/O community in deleting a question/answer if it MAY be of use to others simply because it doesn't perfectly fit some StackX/O rule. Deletion of a question should be reserved for spam, etc, not for valid technical questions.

Second, as you point out, keeping the question posted (whether closed or not) allows others to see the same question and is very likely to reduce the likelihood of the question being asked again. Most users of this site are sensible enough to search the site before posting, so on this count alone it is valuable to retain the questions.

Third, people ask these sorts of questions - e.g. questions about the merits of different frameworks - because they are hungry for knowledge and understanding. Sometimes those questions are perfectly black & white and therefore fit within the requirements of the StackX/O. At other times we stray into questions that are seeking opinions rather than precise answers

Regardless, that hunger for knowledge and understanding should be encouraged, not slammed down. Our economy and society need more developers (especially more good developers using the best languages and frameworks!), as well as more people who are thirsty for knowledge. So our technical community ought to be kinder and more supportive of people who ask questions, even if the questions don't perfectly fit the requirements of the site.

Fourth, it's wrong on multiple levels to treat a marginally off-topic or "against the rules" question as though the person were posting spam or porn. Embarrassing or rejecting a newbie for asking a "wrong question" or asking a question "in the wrong format" achieves nothing of value. It simply humiliates the person and makes them less likely to be a valued ongoing member of the StackX community in the future.

Finally, and most importantly, there is obviously a real need for informed answers to questions of an opinion nature - such as the relative merits of different Javascript frameworks. So isn't it time that StackExchange or StackOverflow created a site where these sort of questions can be asked legitimately, without rejection - and answered by the informed technical community?

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    Opinion based questions do not work well in the Q&A format that Stack Overflow and Stack Exchange use. As such, they are off-topic, and therefore should, in fact, be deleted (Minus very rare exceptions). I can understand there being a "need," if you could call it that, for opinion based questions, but they do not belong here. If you have one, take it to a forum of your choice please, and help us keep things here on-topic and high-quality.
    – Kendra
    Commented Apr 22, 2015 at 19:07
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    Kendra - If there were such a forum people would happily use it, but there isn't. The StackX/StackO communities are the ideal for tapping into for giving these sorts of answers, because the members of this community are those with the experience to present informed judgements. This is precisely why I suggested the creation of a NEW forum within the StackX/StackO family where such questions could be asked and answered.
    – TechnoCat
    Commented Apr 22, 2015 at 19:14
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    There are plenty of such forums out there- I didn't specify anything more than a forum of your choice outside of the Stack Exchange network. I'm fairly certain that idea of yours was tried at one point, and did not pan out. EDIT: I believe this is the post I was thinking of. You might want to read over that a bit, and you'll understand why a site designed for these subjective questions won't work well.
    – Kendra
    Commented Apr 22, 2015 at 19:15
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    Kendra, The fact that the need for judgements exists indicates a business opportunity to meet that need. For instance, if I want a deeply informed judgement about whether Sinatra or Rails would be the better for a particular new Ruby project I'm building or funding, I could burn $2 million on building two projects in parallel and then discovering where the limitations lie before discarding one of the two. Or I could ask a question of an informed and experienced community. So I'm simply pushing the case for a new forum within the StackX/StackO family. Cheers.
    – TechnoCat
    Commented Apr 22, 2015 at 19:23
  • Also, Kendra, the example you provided (a forum titled "not programming related") has nothing to do with the forum I proposed, nor with the issue under discussion. If you take the example in the question which started this whole discussion, it was about the merits of different Javascript frameworks (Angular vs Dojo) - clearly an intensely programming related question! So - sorry - your answer is actually both irrelevant and off topic.
    – TechnoCat
    Commented Apr 22, 2015 at 19:30
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    I think you need to look again. That site was originally made for subjective (opinion based) and too broad questions. It did not work in this network. You are advocating a site for opinion based (subjective) questions. It will not work in this network. I will not argue this further. I have given you a link to an explanation of what happened when a site like you suggest was tried, if you choose to reject it and assume I am mistaken, that is your choice.
    – Kendra
    Commented Apr 22, 2015 at 19:40
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    @GingerCat: It does still exist, it was never a forum, and while it was originally titled "Not Programming Related" it is now called Software Engineering. P.SE has probably had the rockiest history of any SE site because of its initial confusion over purpose and scope. Commented Apr 22, 2015 at 23:55
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    There may well be a widespread need for some place to ask questions of this kind, but Stack Exchange is not the answer. We are simply not set up with that purpose in mind, and we're not equipped to treat those kinds of questions properly. Let somebody else create such a site if there's the need for it; it doesn't belong here. Commented Apr 23, 2015 at 5:19

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