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GPS location is always offset in China asks how to solve a very difficult problem - correcting random map offsets in China due to cold war era regulations and/or protectionism1, 2.

The answer is far from trivial, and can't easily be presented in a regular SO answer. Maxime Guilbot, an Objective C programmer, took the time to create a solution for the problem as a library hosted on GitHub. He then signed up for SO and posted it along with a brief description as an answer:

enter image description here

That answer was deleted without explanation by diamond moderator ThiefMaster♦. This was the user's first and only experience with StackOverflow.

So we had a first time user. Who was not a native English speaker. Who had no commercial interest. Not a spam or just link-only answer. Affiliation/conflict of interest disclosed. Without the answer, the problem described in the question appears impossible to solve. The link is hosted on GitHub - unlikely to rot.

Was this deletion warranted?

Was there no better action to be taken by a mod, such as:

  • improving the answer
  • informing the user
  • converting the answer to a comment
  • downvoting

Deletion to me seems too extreme of a measure, and unhelpful.

UPDATE

Now all answers have been deleted and the question has no publicly visible answers whatsoever. How does this ultimately help anyone better than the previous situation when pointers to libraries fixing the problem were present? I'm really, really puzzled.

enter image description here

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  • 4
    I can see how some further usage instructions would be helpful, but that's not justification (to my mind) for deleting it: external software links can squeak by without, since there's no way to "summarize" a program or library like that. That said, it was long enough ago that the mod may not remember their thought process. Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 6:38
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    @NathanTuggy: the useful question is, how can mods be kept in check? That deletion has gone unnoticed for two years, and who knows how many man-hours have been wasted because of it. Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 6:47
  • 1
    10k users have a "recently deleted posts" feed, if memory serves, so any mysterious/counter-intuitive deletions should show up there and be raised on Meta I guess. Other than that... no system is absolutely perfect. Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 6:49
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    I'm over 10k and never stumbled upon that feed, so awareness of it seems imperfect. Also, 10k users are few and far between, and the have better things to do than patrol for deleted answers. How about keeping the finger off the deletion trigger to begin with? From a strictly utilitarian standpoint, deleting that answer has probably hurt many more people than it has spared (of what?). Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 6:49
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    Well, some such answers must be deleted, even though this one shouldn't have been, so I'm not quite sure what you're asking, exactly. (I seem to recall that that was a timeframe in which 2k users weren't able to recommend deletion of NAA, so it's likely mod powers had to be invoked on those more frequently....) Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 6:51
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    Well, as a 10k, I can't vote to undelete, and have to spend even more time posting on Meta. My recommendation is for mods to be more careful about the powers they've been entrusted with. That, and I'm also frustrated by the recurring problem of wanton deletion on SO. Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 6:55
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    Probably should have been converted to a comment. But there are lots of different reasons why this happened. For example, a 1 rep noob posts a link to an outside resource, could be spam. Certainly smells like it. Or the noob was about to get the answer deleted for spam automatically, due to user flags, and the mod preemptively deleted the answer so that the user didn't get penalized as a spammer. Maybe they sent him a mod message discussing the issue and what the user could do. Maybe the user moved on. Who knows? You could always move it into a comment yourself...
    – user1228
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 15:36
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    Paging @George-Stocker given his plea to stop deleting good content. Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 19:30
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    @DanDascalescu But that was not a good answer. If the person provides a good answer, then it won't get deleted. The very question you just linked to has popular answers saying that link only answers should be converted to comments and deleted.
    – mason
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 22:25
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    @mason: Check Robert Harvey's answer: "The mission of Stack Overflow is to collect useful programming knowledge; if that knowledge is useful, but not in a form that we like, the first thing we should reach for is making that knowledge available to the community in a form that is acceptable to us, not removing the information outright." And "[The moderators'] first priority is the preservation of useful information, not a slavish adherence to the rules." What I keep seeing here is exactly slavish adherence to the rules. Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 22:28
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    @mason - can you be better than a machine following the rules and look at the actual answer? It's far from a "random page over the internet". It's the GitHub repo hosting the solution to the problem. It's not a link that will rot, and no matter how much one can explain the GPS offset deviation process in an answer, you can't bring an entire library from GitHub in a StackOverflow answer. Please look at the context. You can't just blindly be following rules. Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 22:38
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    @DanDascalescu I did look at the answer before I posted here. I don't care if it's GitHub or not. The project could go into disuse. GitHub could change their URL's. GitHub could go down, as happened recently. Stack Overflow answers must be self contained. It's been a basic principle here for a long time. Instead of arguing an exception, argue to change the rules if you wish. Arguing for an exception is not going to get you anywhere.
    – mason
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 22:41
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    Like has been said here and in the other comments, it would have been find if it was a decent standalone explanation describing how to go about solving the problem and then provided the link as a supplement to the answer. That's not too much of a burden to ask for.
    – mason
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 22:43
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    @DanDascalescu Because my own expertise is not in the area. If your own expertise happens to be, then feel free. As long as it's a meets our rules, I'd have no problem with it.
    – mason
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 22:49
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    @DanDascalescu I didn't say the answer had to be complete, but it should serve as a solid starting point so that someone who is familiar with that subject matter would have a clear idea of how to implement the solution. And if that's too big of a topic for Stack Overflow, then the question should be closed as Too Broad.
    – mason
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 23:01

3 Answers 3

4

Alright, well I undeleted the two answers that provided links to some code. The third answer that railed about Chinese censorship was rightfully deleted.

I undeleted the answers because they might actually contain a solution to the posted problem.

Some observations:

  1. "Not an Answer" flags were used on these answers. A better flag would have been a custom one, explaining why these answers are actively harmful to the site and require removal by a moderator.

  2. If you don't like the "link-only" character of the answers, there are a number of things that you can do first that don't require moderator intervention. You can edit the answer to provide clarifying information from the link. You can notify the poster that they need to provide some clarification. You can downvote.

  3. "Link-Only" != "Not an Answer." It even says this in Your answer is in another castle.

It's been awhile, so it bears repeating: Do not use NAA flags on answers like this. You're not going to get the results you want.

Further Reading
https://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/251701

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    Would you mind pointing out where Shog says link-only answers are not NAA? Because he seems to be saying the exact opposite. I just see him upset about the fact that many people cry link-only even if it isn't. Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 22:51
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    Start reading under the heading "And all those other answers with links in them"
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 22:51
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    What if I just starting answer every question with "I figured out how to solve your problem using this tool"? Also now we're required to go off-site in order to evaluate an answer. I realize this was a link to GitHub, not just any random place. But we have to download the code to find out if it works. We have to read through it's documentation which may be poor. A link only answer is really not an answer. Our goal is to be similar to an Encyclopedia right? What if Wikipedia started linking to Whitehouse.gov's description of the US President? A dangerous precedent.
    – mason
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 22:59
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    What if I just starting answer every question with "I figured out how to solve your problem using this tool"? -- But that's not the case here.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 23:00
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    Also now we're required to go off-site in order to evaluate an answer. -- A poor condition, but better than no answer whatsoever. We have ways to fix it that don't involve outright deletion.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 23:01
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    @DanDascalescu What does that have to do with us? If the answer is too complex, for SO's format, the question should be closed as too broad.
    – mason
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 23:04
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    @mason: No, I won't, because I have no interest in slavishly following rules that result in a net loss of knowledge. Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 23:09
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    @DanDascalescu I'm not saying that the information in those questions wouldn't be useful. But if the question requires an answer that's too broad for Stack Overflow, then the information doesn't belong on this site. It should perhaps be an academic paper, or the subject of a dedicated site, or a series of blog entries. SO just isn't geared towards that stuff. If you don't like the rules, feel free to argue to have them changed. But until they're changed, you should enforce them when applicable.
    – mason
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 23:11
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    Explaining what exactly the problem is, and thus what the linked code does to compensate, in detail. Now, there's nothing. And as there's an answer which at least named the problem, why bother? I acknowledge your strong opposition to deletion of link-only-answers is good for keeping excesses in check, but here it seems misplaced on one of the posts. Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 23:35
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    @mason - You seem to be confusing 'breadth' with 'depth'. Not every question that requires an intricate, lengthy, and technical response in order to fully answer is "too broad". No useful purpose is served by deleting questions about deep topics just because a 'proper' answer would necessarily involve a deep discussion of various technical aspects and pre-requisite knowledge. Unless your goal is to build a very broad and shallow knowledge-base, that is.
    – aroth
    Commented Apr 7, 2015 at 2:08
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    @aroth There's only two possibilities here. Either the question is too broad, or the question deserves an answer that is not link only. It's one or the other. I haven't confused anything here. There is a purpose to only allowing answers that meet our criteria on here, as we've mentioned several times in the comments now.
    – mason
    Commented Apr 7, 2015 at 2:10
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    @mason - 'There's only two possibilities here'. I don't believe that's the case. The question is not too broad. It's about mapping deviations in China when using a specific mapping library, and compensating for them. It deserves any answer that helps the OP solve their problem.
    – aroth
    Commented Apr 7, 2015 at 2:20
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    @aroth If it's not too broad, then an answer should be able to fit the format of Stack Overflow. Is it possible? I'm not a subject matter expert on that particular question. If it is possible, then the link only answer should be removed and someone should come along and give it an answer. If it's not possible to answer the question in the format of Stack Overflow, then it turns out the question was too broad. It's one or the other. It's not a false dilemma: we've got two mutually exclusive possibilities.
    – mason
    Commented Apr 7, 2015 at 2:22
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    @mason My conclusion is that the explanation of how the library solves the problem is technically deep (though admittedly not as deep as this or this). You're trying to pigeonhole that into 'question too broad'. As I said, breadth and depth aren't the same, and rules/criteria can't make them be.
    – aroth
    Commented Apr 7, 2015 at 6:50
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    @aroth I'm not trying to say that the question is too broad, because I am not a subject matter expert on that topic. What I am saying is that it must be one or the other - either the question is too broad (meaning that it can't be answered in SO format) or it's not too broad (in which case the link only answer should be removed). It's one or the other. And based upon what you said above, it sounds like it was too broad.
    – mason
    Commented Apr 7, 2015 at 13:14
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Yes, I think the deletion was warranted. You say:

Not a... link-only answer

That assertion is incorrect; it was a link-only answer. It does not answer the question by itself.

For the canonical discussion of the problems with this, see MetaSE: Your answer is in another castle: when is an answer not an answer?


The answer is far from trivial, and can't be presented in a regular SO answer.

Then why try to crowbar it into the SO format?

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    "Then why try to crowbar it into the SO format?" Would it be better to not answer the question at all? That's the net result of deleting Maxime's answer. He's spent his time solving the problem with working code, and the README in his repo offers a good overview of the code. He was a first-time SO user and linked to the repo, which describes the solution. Should the punishment for not pasting the README be deleting the answer and thus turning the user off from SE forever? Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 8:35
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    @DanDascalescu the README also doesn't actually answer the question. If the OP wanted to know how to do this, they are still none the wiser, without digging through the source code. If they wanted someone to provide a tool to do it, then: success! But that's not an acceptable question for SO. I think it would have been perfectly possible to write a couple of paragraphs on the problem and approach to solution, which would have answered the question, and provide the link to an implementation.
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 8:38
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    Can then the answer be undeleted and some sort of notice be added to a similar effect to the stub template in Wikipedia? Surely that would better than no answer at all? Someone else could drop by, see the link to the code, then write a summary that does answer the question. Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 8:40
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    @DanDascalescu no, it's not appropriate to have a non-answer including "fill in the blanks to create your very own answer". If the answer is edited to actually be an answer, I will happily vote to undelete, though.
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 8:41
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    It might have worked better as a comment, but "There's a category you can use to solve this problem, you can find it at <URL>" is a valid-enough answer. What was the respondent supposed to do? Dump all their github code into SO? Or their Readme.md? Granted, link fragility is a valid concern. However, I think it's safe to say that links to github are not particularly fragile.
    – aroth
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 10:06
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    It's also worth nothing that the current top-voted answer on that question is basically another one-sentence answer with a link to some code on github to work-around the problem (which seems no more or less likely to fix the problem than the code in the deleted answer). Why is that answer allowed while the other one was deleted? If there's some rule that's being enforced here, the enforcement should at least be consistent.
    – aroth
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 10:11
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    @aroth "...is a valid-enough answer" - no, it isn't. "What was the respondent supposed to do?" - explain (briefly) how to solve the problem. What does their code actually do? I've no problem with a GitHub link to an implementation, but the answer should stand alone. "Why is that answer allowed while the other one was deleted?" - good question, I can only assume that one was flagged and the other wasn't. None of the answers are actually answers, and I have now flagged as such.
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 10:12
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    The deleted answer said what the code does; it "offset[s] the position in China to compensate for the error". For specifics the source-code is generally a better reference than someone's summary of the source-code. And perhaps this is domain-specific, as a category is a well-defined construct in obj-c, which makes it clear both 1) how the solution is structured and 2) how it can be used. In any case, I think it would have been more appropriate for the OP to gauge the value of the answer and seek clarification if needed, as opposed to a mod simply deleting a potentially helpful answer.
    – aroth
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 11:28
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    @aroth do you not think "apply an offset to compensate" is a somewhat unhelpful answer to a question asking how to compensate for an offset? I agree that providing source code is good, but that doesn't change anything; if the code is too long for an answer, an explanation of what it does should be included with the link. Answers should stand alone, that is a basic principle of SO.
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 11:31
  • @aroth the current answer at least hints at the supposed cause (apparently Google doesn't take into account that China uses a different coordinate systems than the U.S.)
    – oefe
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 11:32
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    @jonrsharpe - I think 'unhelpful' depends on what the OP wanted. As I read the question, it sounds like they want a workaround more than they want an explanation of how to implement a workaround. Though mostly I think it would have made more sense to let the OP and other community members evaluate the merits of the answer by by voting, commenting upon, and editing it, as opposed to having a mod come in and delete it. I'm not saying the answer couldn't or shouldn't have been made better, just that deletion wasn't the most appropriate approach.
    – aroth
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 14:37
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    @aroth: Doesn't change the fact that any answer must be a valid SO answer, even if you personally are happy with a hint that there is some code somewhere which might help. Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 18:31
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    @DanDascalescu questions like that aren't really suitable for SO. This isn't all things to all people, it tries to do a subset well.
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 19:38
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    @DanDascalescu: If one does not have the time or inclination to write an answer instead of just giving a nudge in a direction which might lead one to something which might possibly help, labeling it an answer does not actually make it one... and your examples are well answered by johnsharpe's comment directly above: Don't go to the butcher to buy timber. Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 21:05
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    @DanDascalescu you can please some of the people, some of the time... (and some people are never pleased)
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Apr 6, 2015 at 21:26
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I deleted this answer because it was a very, very, very bad answer; to the point where Shog9's guidance of 'delete crap answers' started sounding off in my head.

Let's break the answer down into its parts (as I saw it from the mod queue):

Isn't this due to the different coordinate system used in China to the one we use of WGS84?

This sounds like a clarifying comment; so it should probably be a comment.

Here is some code that can handle translations from WGS84

By itself, this answer would be deleted (because it's similar to "Use this tutorial HERE"), it provides no information in the text of the answer that would be useful without visiting the link.

The "Not an answer" flag wasn't 100% on target, but it was pretty close; at best I'd say this was a rotten apple (in Shog9's parlance) and could have been deleted for that reason.

In order for this to be a useful answer, it should:

  • Be edited with how to use that library to solve the OP's problem
  • include sample implementation code
  • A greater understanding of how to install it
  • Include its weaknesses

In this case, the 'answer' had none of those, and couldn't survive on its own as anything more than a comment, so it was deleted.

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  • I believe it was this one that the OP was referring to. The one you're talking about is still actually an answer.
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Apr 7, 2015 at 15:59
  • @jonrsharpe I didn't delete the one the OP was referring to in the first part of his question; another mod did. I would have deleted it though had I processed the flag on it.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Apr 7, 2015 at 18:04

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