76

I have been habitually removing statements like the one in this question's title when I edit to improve a question much the same as I remove 'Thanks', 'Kind sir' and other general salutations. I do not edit specifically for the above purposes but if I'm in edit to format a code block or clarify a title, I will take these additional steps.

I have been doing this as I believed that some ESL users may have chosen the wrong turn of phrase to express their intended thought. Personally, I think anyone that actually believes they cannot find absolutely anything on the Internet should have their computer confiscated by the Internet police and given a stone axe to play with.

I'm now reconsidering that position as phrases such as the one in the title or 'I looked for days' seem to be a common trait with questions posed by Help Vampires. Removing the phrase and otherwise improving the post through an edit would seem to lend credence to the question and generate goodwill towards soliciting an answer and that is something I am reluctant to do for suspect Help-Vampires.

Is removing these types of phrases a valid edit or should I leave them stand?

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  • 53
    Such sentences and phrases are a good thing. You just know that the question is going to suck majorly, and so you only need a quick glance to make sure it's not that 'one in a million' before downCloseVoting. Commented Jan 11, 2015 at 2:07
  • 64
    But what if they really couldn't find anything related to their problem? Certain languages for example have atrociously incomplete documentation.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 15:28
  • 1
    How about adding a tag about it? Like content-needed, or something like that. Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 15:36
  • 9
    @BoltClock - I think if someone has honestly looked for a solution to their particular issue they would have found at least something closely related between the official docs and the multitude of help sites available. I'm addressing questions where the OP has stated 'I've looked everywhere' and a simple Google or Bing search of the title to their question produces a dozen solutions on the first page of the search results.
    – user4039065
    Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 15:38
  • 19
    @Jeeped So you want to punish the ones that do their research then? You're supposed to explain what you've tried so far when asking a question, saying you've searched on Google for a solution to your problem is explaining what you've tried. Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 20:31
  • 7
    @Dropped.on.Caprica - You're inferring malice where there is none. I'm re-evaluating my current practice of editing out hyperbole that (to my mind) lowers the overall quality of the post. Reread the title of this question. That is not the same as someone relating that they had 'searched on Google for a solution'.
    – user4039065
    Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 20:45
  • 3
    If you're going around doing this editing to weeks-old questions, you're merely increasing the amount of noise on the site. Let sleeping dogs lie.
    – Hot Licks
    Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 20:50
  • 4
    @Jeeped I worded that a bit awkwardly I'll admit. Still, removing phrases like “I looked [...] on the internet and I did not find anything" still shows that the asker at least tried to look online to find a solution. If you look online and you see answers, it might be a situation where the person doesn't fully understand the answers online and would need a bit of guidance to understand what the solution may be. Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 20:50
  • 4
    @NickL. - Sounds like a meta-tag.
    – JDB
    Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 21:05
  • 14
    @Dropped.on.Caprica: "I looked on the internet and I did not find anything" is not an indicator for having done the research, but for earnestly wanting to get by without the effort, at best trying to crowdsource it on SO. Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 21:31
  • 7
    @Deduplicator I'll just add in my two cents that, about a year ago when I was brand new to SO, I prefaced some of my Google Apps Script questions with phrases similar to this. I didn't do it because I was 'lacking in research effort', I actually added them in because I did scour the internet. Google Apps Script doesn't have a huge community. That said, it's kind of a 'newbie' thing - I don't do it anymore - but phrases like this don't necessarily mean people aren't doing their own research, or that the question is bad/low quality; in fact, I'd say my GAS questions were medium-high quality :) Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 21:58
  • 1
    @ChrisCirefice: Sure, any single indicator alone is not enough. Even if the correlation is really strong. Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 22:09
  • 7
    “I looked everywhere on the internet and I did not find anything” To that I would reply something like.. Share with us the search terms used, as well as the top 5 hits and why they did not sort the problem for you. -- The first I ask is because the search term might be too specific. E.G. if trying to update a DB from a button click and talking about Java Swing, the OP might have used 'JButton MySQL' which is far too specific to throw up good hits on subjects that should be separately researched. The '5 links + explanation' is to encourage them to do the research that they claim. Commented Jan 13, 2015 at 2:46
  • 2
    Just to be fair, many if not most of all questions on SO do not show any research effort and still are highly voted. For example Check if a file exists using Python does not show any research effort at all, even doesn't say if any part of the internet has been searched at all (or somebody edited it out). So my guess is that a lack of research is judged way more severe from a bad/badly perceived question. Commented Jan 13, 2015 at 10:32
  • 5
    And another one I just stumbled upon: matplotlib: add circle to plot is high voted and still does not show any research effort at all (within the one line question). How come it was up/ not downvoted? I think because it's actually a useful question regardless of the research. So this means that as long as a lot of people have the same question, research is not necessarily necessary on SO. Commented Jan 13, 2015 at 12:08

12 Answers 12

32

You should edit a post to improve the quality of the post.

With that in mind:

For the question written by someone who has searched the entirety of the known Internet for how to create a regex to parse an HTML document, editing is an unnecessary step as the question cannot, fundamentally, be improved. It should just be downvoted and closed.

For the question written by someone who has searched the entirety of the known Internet for how to diagnose the reason a custom tab is not appearing in their Salesforce community, editing is probably valid as the phrase was probably born more out of frustration than actual exhaustive research. Improve the question by toning down the hysteria.

For the question written by someone who has searched the entirety of the known Internet for how to use a brand new feature of a cutting-edge technology that doesn't have good official documentation, editing is probably inappropriate. The author may be using a literary device to make a valid point - the question is simple, but no answers could be found via the normal channels. I'd leave it in.

These aren't meant to be rules or even guidelines, just examples of made-up scenarios where I'd take very different actions for very different reasons, but all with the goal of improving the article. Let that be your guiding star, use your gut a bit, and most minutiae like this should start falling into place. (Editing, like bug fixing, is, ultimately, subjective.)

1
  • 4
    Agree. The context of the phrase is very important. By itself, "I searched everywhere" usually doesn't say much, but "I searched everywhere and the only reference I found was bug #1234 last updated 2 years ago" has substantial meaning. So does, "I searched everywhere and found lots of info on foo, but I need foo and bar to work together and I get this error when combining them".
    – Tim M.
    Commented Jan 13, 2015 at 19:26
113

Those phrases are there because people pester them to search google before coming to Stack Overflow. They're useless phrases (except to appease those that want to know that they've searched before coming here), so they should be edited out.

The reason they're useless is that the user says, "I searched everywhere", but they don't tell us what they've searched for. That's important.

If they link us to a specific query or something that actually tells us what 'everywhere' and the 'for' means, then it's more helpful; otherwise it serves about the same value as "help me please", or "thanks". It means nothing.

8
  • 23
    I don't think 'thanks' means nothing.
    – GolezTrol
    Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 20:30
  • 19
    @GolezTrol They can thank us afterwards, Thanks is ambiguous and doesn't contribute to the quality of the question.
    – AStopher
    Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 20:35
  • 50
    Or, Upvote. That's a much better thanks than 6 letters that are effectively meaningless.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 20:36
  • 10
    The thanks is surely the most debatable. It doesn't make the question better to understand but it gives the whole thing a human touch. I enjoy it. Maybe we should have a separate discussion just about Thanks. Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 22:02
  • 3
    +1 for "The reason they're useless is that the user says, "I searched everywhere", but they don't tell us what they've searched for.", but -1 for " otherwise it serves about the same value as "help me please", or "thanks". It means nothing."
    – DCShannon
    Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 22:31
  • 4
    @Trilarion There were many discussions about this already: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/17878/… , meta.stackexchange.com/questions/2950/… , meta.stackexchange.com/questions/126180/… etc.
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 22:41
  • 7
    @GolezTrol: Well, you're wrong. Commented Jan 13, 2015 at 1:50
  • I'm sorry, what value do you think in saying I'm searched here with this query, went through this web site table of contents and I also visited this and this forums here and did not get the answer. How is it better? In my experience people WILL leave unhelpful comments unless you convince them you made an effort. And mentioning that you did your homework - the search - goes a long way for deterring them from these smug comments. Commented Jan 13, 2015 at 19:21
20

Those phrases are there because people pester them to search google before coming to Stack Overflow. -George Stocker

I think George has a point here... But I think it points to another problem.

Demonstrating research effort shouldn't mean that they consulted the almighty Google or asked Yahoo.

It should mean that they looked at whatever documentation they could find, grokked it (if even slightly), hammered out some sort of attempt at solving the problem, and then asked a question regarding what they didn't understand... This isn't just demonstrating "effort" its giving us a clear starting point.

When the answer to "What have you tried?" is “I looked everywhere, but...” it really means you haven't actually tried anything yet.


TL;DR

Ya, edit them out. Its just noise and nobody benefits from writing it or reading it.

12

I assume good faith when I edit a post to remove casual tone. So I generally don’t edit out the, “I Google for hours and now I have lost my family, can you help me?” stuff unless it is truly set apart/easy to edit. I don’t believe that in doing so any time is being wasted on behalf of others simply because there are more signs of relative incompetence other than just stating that or “I am a n00b! :(”

If you ascribe to the policy that fixing grammar or making things more readable only masks intentions, you assume that by leaving a mess behind that somehow that—in and of itself—will discourage people interacting with the question. I have not seen any evidence of these grammatical “red flags” ever stopping anyone for any reason.

If anything I see the opposite; a profoundly casual post will often lead to more people attempting to answer in an equally lackadaisical way in an attempt to gain rep. At least if the question is cleaned up its true message—and possibly the original poster’s competence—will shine through and then people with half a brain will see that and say, “Whoa! Genius has arrived… Time to flag, close or walk away.”

3

IMHO these sentences are totally useless help-wise, yet useful "review-wise". However, there's a blurry line here. Many times a related framework is not well-known or badly documented (e.g. OpenERP 7), and perhaps the user actually did not find more than just barely related topics on Google (topics which are not what the user was finding).

Yes. There are sometimes where a user did not find anything (useful) in Google - it can happen, and happens frequently.

Short answer: The sentence -for good or bad- should not be deleted. It forces you to actually read the question and perhaps helping them, or downvote them pressing even harder with the mouse click.

Long answer: An easy criteria could be used when you find a sentence like that:

  • Does the user enumerate near alternatives they saw? (topics which look like, but are not what they needed) - the sentence is useful to guide the user about. So that sentence should not be considered a lack of effort if the framework/technology is not a well-known, well-documented one (stuff like PHP, Python, JavaScript, Django, MySQL are pretty well documented - stuff like Magento, OpenERP, Drupal have a not-friendly-at-all documentation).
  • Does the user show code having a very-basic syntax error? Downvote immediately (watch out with python code! indentation is important, and there are a lot of users who do not indent accordingly in the code format tool).
  • If you are not sure, make a Google query. If a topic like that appears in the first two pages, then it's a high chance that they did not research at all.

If neither of them become decisive (this could be caused by a popular-yet-poorly-documented technology - there's a plethora outside) then it is a high-chance that the user researched but did not find anything (happens a lot; OpenERP is my case).

However, the final answer is in the rest of the question. You've the final decision over the questions (downvote or help them), but by deleting such sentences you're erasing the widely-known help-vampires footprints, when that's the case.

1

I agree that in most cases the "I have tried my best" disclaimer conveys no useful information, but in some cases it does, e.g. when

  • The question has an apparent easy answer that can quickly be found with, say, Google, but
  • The answer is unsuitable for some reason that the OP motivates in her disclaimer.

In such case the disclaimer usually sounds like "I have searched Google and found x, y, z, but they are not ok because...".

Coming to the meta-question, disclaimers can be a hint that a question is originating from a help vampire, but they are by no way a proof of that. Let's put it that way: Were the OP in good faith, not improving the post would never allow her to know about how to make a good post. My opinion is to be conservative: One should make her idea about whether a question is useful to the community by reading it in full. Based on this informed opinion you are able to decide whether improving the post is worth the effort or not on a per-case basis.

1
  • 6
    If you re-read George's answer this is exactly what he says. "I searched the internet" is useless, but "I found XYZ and it doesn't work because of ABC" is exactly what we want. That's a demonstration of research and a very useful one as the OP won't get the standard answers, but ones specific to their problem. It saves a lot of the OPs time and everyone else's.
    – Ben
    Commented Jan 13, 2015 at 8:07
1

When I started asking questions on the internet, I used to write phrases like that. I actually did some search but as a french native speaker, it would took me nearly 1 hour to explain what I did in proper english.

I also remember a question that I downvoted recently because it sounded very aggressive and showed no research effort, but when I looked at the editing history, there was a guy with 5k rep who removed a long phrase like this. I wouldn't have downvoted the first version of the question. It was a reasonable question for a new user, didn't sound aggressive and showed some willing to learn (in a bad english), so I would have took some time to comment and ask for more details.

So I wouldn't remove phrases like that. Help vampires will continue to be help vampires whether you close their questions faster or not. It has no benefit but can hurt those who can get better over time.

-4

Personally, I think it's unfair to attack people who come to this site looking for help if they are legitimately looking for help. In my case, I'm not the best programmer in the world; I have a LOT of things to learn.

Now, if the person is asking a question and doesn't show any work that they've attempted then I can understand being frustrated; however, they certainly should not be attacked personally. I know when I post questions I always try to post what code or Excel formula I'm currently trying to figure out. Sometimes, I get very mixed up on the syntax of a function and how different functions in excel can be combined; searching for this sort of thing on your own can be overwhelming sometimes because every resource you go to has a different way of doing things.

Anyways, it just comes down to common courtesy. I just personally think it's rude to down-vote someone's question because it seems easy to answer, especially if you can tell the person is new to the site. The only caveat there is if you can tell it's basically a "Hey can you do my homework?" kind of question.

4
  • 1
    If a person is being attacked personally then you should flag the comments doing so. However downvotes and votes to close are in no way attacks on a person. They are simply to indicate the quality of the question/answer that is being voted on. If your posts are being downvoted, they are not meeting the quality standards of the site. In that case, you should compare your posts to the tips on the How to Ask and How to Answer pages and try to edit to improve quality. You're not only less likely to be downvoted, but more likely to be upvoted when your post meets quality guidelines.
    – Kendra
    Commented Nov 9, 2015 at 19:18
  • And won't you look at that??? My post got down-voted. I'm a beginner. I want to be able to ask questions and learn from people without feeling like I have to walk on eggshells.
    – Ryan_C
    Commented Nov 9, 2015 at 19:21
  • First off, downvotes on Meta are different. In this specific case, you should note that downvotes on Meta do not affect your reputation. Second, I at least explained my downvote: Your answer is incorrect, at least in how you assume the site works. I downvoted not only for that, but because this comes up time and again from people who do not read the help, do not take the tour (there's even a badge for that so I can see that you for instance have not), and do not understand how this site works. I suggest you check out the help pages, for your own sanity, and browse Meta a bit.
    – Kendra
    Commented Nov 9, 2015 at 19:23
  • And third, you don't have to walk on eggshells. My first question was an easy beginner question. I have no downvotes on that question, as I wrote what is considered here to be a good, quality question. All that took was reading the How to Ask page, which is filled with tips to help you get answers to your questions. The better your question is written, the more answers (and the better) you're likely to get. It's in your own interest to go check out the help pages and learn to write a good post.
    – Kendra
    Commented Nov 9, 2015 at 19:25
-12

This is exactly that kind of thing that irks me on this site. People are putting phrases like that in because they are AFRAID of the aggressive portion of the Stack Overflow community that often attacks question askers. I know I put a phrase like that in most of my questions, because I am legitimately scared of the Stack Overflow community and only come here as a last resort.

Removing those sentences may or may not be a good idea, but people are writing those sentences in for the reasons I have described.

You called them "help vampires", but that just goes to show that you have an elitist coding attitude. Sometimes new programmers are having trouble grasping concepts that seem intuitive to you. I doubt people are writing that sentence in and lying about it.

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  • 3
    So, they are terrified of their reception when showing they don't want to put in the effort neccessary to write a worthwhile question, and thus demonstrate their earnest desire to avoid the work by trying for a cargo-cult solution, which demonstrates it even more. That about sums it up? Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 21:36
  • 9
    Certainly they are lying. They haven't searched 'everywhere'. If they had, they would have found it. What they usually have done is trawl aimlessly for a couple of days in undisclosed ways. This isn't research, it is just time-wasting, as, usually, is the question.
    – user207421
    Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 21:37
  • 7
    Then what is the point of this site? According to this logic nobody can ask questions because the answer has to be out there somewhere. Aren't people supposed to just help each other on here? Why the judging and ridiculing of the question askers? lol, I'm not going down this road let's agree to disagree.
    – jnel899
    Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 21:41
  • 8
    Non sequitur. They aren't required to look everywhere, but they are required not to lie about it. At least I require it.
    – user207421
    Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 21:45
  • 4
    @EJP Hyperbole != lying
    – DCShannon
    Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 22:29
  • 4
    "Sometimes new programmers are having trouble grasping concepts that seem intuitive to you." That's not the definition of a help vampire, and also using this term isn't enough for the definition of the word "elitist".
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 22:50
  • 5
    It's a good thing that you're only posting a question on SO as your last resort. That's exactly what we want. If the solution is actually reasonably discoverable without SO, then that's exactly what you should do first. Don't use up resources when there's no need to. Yes, quality answers on SO are a scarce and limited resource. Figuring it out yourself is often a much longer lasting learning experience than being presented with the answer on a silver platter. Through this you also learn how to figure out more stuff yourself in the future.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jan 13, 2015 at 2:13
  • 3
    Labeling me a 'coding elitist' shows you know absolutely NOTHING about me or the many years and tens of thousands of online help contributions that I have put in. Perhaps you should do a little research of your own.
    – user4039065
    Commented Jan 13, 2015 at 6:49
  • very good answer
    – davidhigh
    Commented Jan 13, 2015 at 19:07
-15

Note that the statement "I have tried everything," and they give an amount of code, may have edited pieces of code and you may not see the older pieces of code then what is shown.

8
  • The question still is neither clear, nor concise, nor demonstrably well-researched... that null-value sentence even lowers one of the important metrics. Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 21:40
  • 1
    'I have tried everything' is clearly and by definition false. If they really had tried everything they would have found a solution, if there is one. The statement is therefore merely noise and should be removed,
    – user207421
    Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 21:54
  • 1
    And you would just down vote? Not actually helping them? Just commenting "provide more evidence," or "be more concise," cast your vote and move on? This would provide for people becoming uninterested in the programming communities. Thus fewer programmers and then a steady decline. Which could be solved by allowing them a chance to save themselves and teach them. Being constructive with your comment, not just saying well that one sentence is unclear flag it. Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 21:54
  • @EJP Yet, "clear" is subjective. What is clear to one person may not be clear to another. Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 21:55
  • 1
    In the case of my comment, 'clearly' is the result of a trivial logical inference. Nothig subjective about it.
    – user207421
    Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 21:57
  • However, at least for the commenter: What is unclear about the topic? My first question, which has been deleted by myself, the comments I got were useless in regards of improving my topic. Most of them stated, "It is unclear." Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 22:05
  • If you're talking to me about some other use of the word 'clear', you're talking to the wrong person. I haven't said a word about it.
    – user207421
    Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 22:07
  • I have, my mistake. However the statement stands. Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 23:12
-33

If you take them out then other people reviewing their question don't know the person asking has actually put some effort into finding the answer before posing the question - and hence may lead to unwarranted downvotes.

9
  • 49
    "Effort" isn't demonstrated by a magic keyword in the question, effort is demonstrated by demonstrating effort (I have looked here and there, tried this and that, failed with X, Y or Z). Otherwise "I've googled for days" just becomes a secret passphrase to pass the "demonstrate effort" criterion.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jan 11, 2015 at 7:12
  • 4
    I call 'em 'The touchstones of mediocrity' :) Commented Jan 11, 2015 at 13:08
  • 26
    @deceze - The one I like is I've tried everything! (without relating a single example of what has actually been tried). It seems to me that if everything was tried, it is pretty pointless to keep looking any further.
    – user4039065
    Commented Jan 11, 2015 at 13:36
  • 1
    @Jeeped: I see it in a similar way: If everything was tried, then far too much time was spend measures that have nothing to do with the original problem. Like reinstalling Windows or feeding the cat.
    – honk
    Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 21:29
  • 4
    You know "searched alot" is like Clinically studied :) Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 21:52
  • I've tried everything! always reminds me of the quote from the movie, Top Secret...
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Jan 13, 2015 at 7:15
  • @deceze Yeah, not everything is that black and white. People could of spent a good while googling for an answer and not finding one - there is no need to go into much more detail than saying you have done that.
    – Brett
    Commented Jan 13, 2015 at 8:22
  • 4
    We do not actually want people to "prove effort". Nobody cares how long anyone has been staring at Google. We do not withhold information because we feel the person doesn't deserve it. "I have googled for weeks!" doesn't do anything; it doesn't make us more sympathetic or improve the question in any way. Questions should/must "show effort" in order to make them answerable. A user detailing what they have tried and what failed helps us narrow down the problem. Questions which just state "It's not working, I have googled!" are often not answerable because they contain no information.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jan 13, 2015 at 8:39
  • 2
    Feature Request: Disable downvote arrow if the question contains "I've tried everything!" Commented Jan 13, 2015 at 18:40
-35

If you edit them out, subsequent contributors visiting the question will waste more time before downCloseVoting. Leave them in.

4
  • Fair enough and certainly along the way I am currently viewing the problem. I'll adjust my edit practices.
    – user4039065
    Commented Jan 11, 2015 at 2:40
  • 13
    Agree with the conclusion but not with the reasoning. If the question is one of the very rare useful and good questions containing this phrase, edit it out. In the way more likely alternative that the quesiton is crap, refrain from editing it at all; mostly because it bumps it back on the front page and thus more people have to look at it.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jan 12, 2015 at 11:15
  • 4
    @Jeeped are you sure this is the best answer? Commented Jan 13, 2015 at 1:52
  • @immibis - It was when I accepted it. I've already upvoted many of the answers and comments but I'm waiting for the semi-viral dust to settle down before revisiting my choice for accepted answer.
    – user4039065
    Commented Jan 13, 2015 at 5:42

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