44

I recently had an answer downvoted and deleted for not directly answering the question. Whilst I can see the argument that it does not constitute a good answer, I still feel that it was constructive and helpful to finding an actual solution to the issue, and the information I posted would not have fit well in a comment.

What's the balance here between providing helpful information and strictly complying to the SO guidelines? How should I have correctly conveyed this information to other users?

Posting the code sample on an external site and linking in the comments seems appropriate, but feels to me like a failure of SO to provide adequate tools for helping users.

Here's a screenshot of the answer as requested:

Screenshot of my original answer

EDIT

Thank you to everyone for the detailed discussion, I appreciate the input. The outcome seems to be a mix of:

  1. The question did not provide enough information and the correct outcome should be just to vote to close, posting "cannot reproduce" as a comment; and
  2. This technique is borderline acceptable, but it should be clarified that the answer is "not a complete answer" and will be deleted/edited once more information is supplied.

I've accepted the highest rated answer as I'm guessing that it reflects the general consensus (I'm still new to meta)

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  • 3
    I'm not saying whether I think it's appropriate or inappropriate, because others will know better. But one thing that does seem to be somewhat more widely accepted is to explicitly state in your answer that you know it should've been a comment but doesn't fit there, and that you'll delete your answer once the question is cleared up and/or an actual answer is provided.
    – user743382
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 11:25
  • @hvd yeah - I actually had that exact thing at the start of the answer initially and I deleted it in an edit.. Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 11:28
  • 32
    @PeterGibson Thanks for caring about low-rep users (screenshot).
    – rpax
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 11:38
  • 10
    This guy gave his precious time to draft an answer. Get rid of the downvote button. This type of behaviour doesn't make for a helpful, sharing environment. What's the point of this site if people can't ask dumb questions or not provide perfect answers 100% of the time. I've been a developer for 13 years but there are many things I still don't know. I am almost too scared to ask a question around here in case I get the dreaded downvote from some nice fellow.
    – user460114
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 12:06
  • 8
    I personally disagree with what BrenBarn and Warren Dew was saying, if you are going to say that you can't replicate it I wanna see your proof, I want to know that your not just some trolling noob sending me on a wild goose chase. I know of people who say, "I cannot replicate this" and then when pressured you find out they haven't even tried it yet. Upvotes are deserved for ACTUALLY PROVING that you cannot replicate the problem in a valid manner.
    – Sammaye
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 12:53
  • 28
    @user460114: A downvote isn't waterboarding. Why be scared? Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 13:26
  • @rpax, Ditto that. Us low-rep users get a bad rep sometimes, not being able to see stuff and everything....
    – ouflak
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 13:49
  • 43
    @user460114 "Get rid of the downvote button"??? "What's the point of this site if people can't ask dumb questions"??? You seem to be under the gross misconception that Stack Overflow is a "help site". It is not. Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 14:01
  • 2
    I'd also second that this is an acceptable use case for Community Wiki posts. This allows others to add and aid with partial advises as well and help OP to fully clarify a question.
    – mario
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 14:04
  • 3
    @mario This most certainly is not a valid use case for CW. CW is for answers that are collaborative works from multiple users. This isn't even a valid answer. Making a post as CW doesn't automatically make an invalid answer a valid answer. The effect on rep is entirely irrelevant here.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 14:11
  • 2
    @mario CW is for an answer that you want to invite others to improve on. Not for non answers that you want someone else to re-write into an actual answer. The post in question is not actually answering the question that is asked, and so it shouldn't be posted as an answer. Using CW in no way makes posting an otherwise unacceptable answer magically acceptable. It's just there to allow others to improve the otherwise acceptable answer.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 14:43
  • 1
    Related: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/178635/…
    – durron597
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 15:15
  • 2
    @Servy it is a partial answer - it shows that the problem is not with Python's __import__ statement, implying that perhaps the issue is within user code. Maybe I should have explicitly stated that fact. Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 11:38
  • 2
    @Servy I agree that this doesn't answer the question, but if the question should be closed as non reproducible, it seems like some way to show the non-reproducibility to other users would be helpful. Maybe the best option right now really is just a pastebin site and a link in the comments, but something built in could help this kind of case. Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 13:22
  • 2
    @JoshuaTaylor It is the burden of the author to provide code that reproduces the problem. When they don't provide the details of what their doing, and someone guess at what they might be doing doesn't reproduce the issue, the real problem is that the question simply lacks sufficient information to be answerable. In fact, the far more likely case whenever this happens, is that the OP's problem really is reproducible, if you just have sufficient information about what they're doing. Knowing that someone tried something completely different and it didn't work helps no one solve the problem.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 13:41

4 Answers 4

37

It's indeed too much to post as a comment, but from what I can see you didn't add any information that isn't already in the question. In that sense, a comment along the lines of "I'm unable to reproduce this." is enough.

If nobody is able to reproduce the behaviour, the question can also be closed with "This question was caused by a problem that can no longer be reproduced". It may be that the question is omitting some code detail that makes the difference.

In a similar discussion at MSE, people seem to agree that "works for me" and the like are Not An Answer: Are "works for me" answers valid?
There is some support though for answers like yours, if you include details like interpreter and version, operating system, working directory, CPU architecture. But I still wouldn't rule out the risk of having such answers deleted.

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  • 18
    My thinking was that it would allow other users to easily repeat my tests (on other platforms say), and also to correct me on any mistakes in my method of testing. It provided information that the fault was not in the __import__ statement itself, and (arguably) helped lead to the fault being found in the user application code. Thanks for the links to the "works for me" discussions and the "can no longer be reproduced" close reason though Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 7:11
  • @PeterGibson I somewhat agree that this is a bit of an edge case, hopefully someone will come along and provide a better answer than mine :)
    – user247702
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 7:15
  • 2
    eval.in is also great to link to with "cannot replicate this and it works fine - see for yourself" as it includes syntax highlighting, output and supports a big variety of languages. You can then put your comments in regular comment tags inside the code.
    – h2ooooooo
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 12:05
  • 1
    @h2ooooooo in this case, no. This problem require a series of files and folders.
    – Davidmh
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 13:27
  • 4
    @PeterGibson: If that stuff is relevant/required, then there is more debugging to do, and the OP shouldn't have posted the question. SO is not a forum or discussion board; if you wish to iteratively discuss techniques for getting to the root of some problem, take it into a chat room. SO is a Q&A, not a help venue. Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 14:03
  • 3
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit OP was likely under the (mistaken) impression that they had posted enough information to allow a solution to be found. Commenting "I can't reproduce this" is helpful, but showing the steps involved is more so. I agree that putting the info in an answer is not ideal, but SO doesn't provide another option. Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 11:35
  • 1
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit: Answering questions constitutes helping, and this website promotes itself also to enthusiast programmers, i.e. those perhaps not professionally trained. Remember: we're all here to learn, so be friendly and helpful!
    – sigma
    Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 11:36
  • 1
    @sigma: Stack Overflow is not a help venue. Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 12:09
  • @LightnessRacesinOrbit: Unfortunately, it is, since plenty of people find help here. Learning from one's own or others' mistakes, however infantile in the eyes of more senior programmers, is valuable. There is nothing that can stop people from replying helpfully to this type of question. This is IMO not in any way contrary to the goal of providing an easy way to sort through questions and answers.
    – sigma
    Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 16:12
  • @sigma: No indeed there is a huge overlap, and that's as must be otherwise it just wouldn't work. But one must not prioritise the "help" at the expense of the actual goal. Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 16:36
16

So far, I've always seemed to get away with:

  • Indicating at the top that it's not a direct answer, but indicated why I've used the answer box - I.e. it's far too large for a comment, I need to apply formatting etc.

  • Mark it a community wiki so that it's clear I'm not rep-hunting

  • Indicate at the top that I have marked it as community wiki and I'm perfectly happy to delete it once the question asker has either dismissed it as irrelevant or absorbed required parts into their question.

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  • 9
    If you're going to tell people that it's not an answer that just means you're freely admitting to doing something that you know is wrong. That's far worse than doing something wrong without realizing that it's wrong. Posting a non-answer as CW doesn't make it any better. It's still not an answer. Answers should be reserved for answering the question not asking for clarification from the question author.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 14:09
  • 11
    Freely admitting to doing something that you know is wrong is usually a bad thing, but not necessarily. If there are many options, all bad, and you make a well-considered decision to pick the least bad of the options, then IMHO, that's far better than not bothering to think whether it might be wrong. Of course, whether it is indeed the least bad of the available options will be a matter of opinion.
    – user743382
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 15:26
  • 2
    @Servy - in the few cases where I've done it, it's not been that it's "not an answer", more that it's an answer to a meta-question that the OP hasn't even thought to bring up - it may help them to solve their overall problem, and in some sense it may be an answer - but it's not an answer if you take their main question and answer it. I doubt that there's a mood to bring full formatting to comments but sometimes that's what's needed - so I've chosen the least-worst solution of a CW answer to provide assistance. Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 17:34
  • 4
    If you start your answer with 'This isn't an answer', it's getting an automatic NAA flag from me.
    – Joe
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 19:35
  • 14
    @Servy if the system doesn't provide the tools you need, you deal the best you can. I would choose being helpful over being pedantic any day. Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 19:51
  • 6
    @MarkRansom But it's not helpful, in the long term. That's the problem here. The whole design of SO is that answer actually answer the question so that when readers come across the question two years from now they can just go look and see the answers, without needing to sort through a ton of people's posts asking clarifying questions. And, as has been mentioned by others, you do have sufficient tools to solve this particular problem appropriately, this is actively choosing not to use the correct tool, and using an incorrect tool instead, harming future readers in the process.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 20:02
  • @Servy I don't really see how no answer (omitting the information) is better than a partial answer. If a better answer comes along, then the voting/accept system will promote it's visibility. The posts that have said this is the wrong way to do it, basically say that you shouldn't post the information at all - I don't see how that's helping anyone Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 11:30
  • @Servy It is helpful though. It's the justification for voting to close a question as "this is not reproducible". A simple comment of "I tried it, and it's not reproducible" doesn't provide as much justification because it's not clear whether the comment poster tried to reproduce it correctly. If the question should be closed as non-reproducible, an "answer" (I agree, it's not quite an answer) like this helps that happen faster. Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 13:26
  • @JoshuaTaylor The burden is on the question author to show that the issue is reproducible, not on readers to show that it's not. Regardless of whether or not Peter's code reproduces the problem the OP of that question needs to show what he is doing. The question needs to be closed either way until edited. Seeing what Peter tried has no real bearing on that.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 13:36
  • 2
    @Servy - if the post demonstrates a method to further develop information about the problem - whilst not immediately answering the direct question asked - is that not useful for people finding the question in future years - a "here's how to develop better diagnostics if you're at the point the OP was when they asked"; Or are we assuming that future searchers of answers have already discovered and used all possible diagnostic techniques? Because I don't believe that that belief reflects reality. Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 17:33
  • @Damien_The_Unbeliever Fundamentally the question doesn't have enough information. The most helpful action is for the question to be edited to actually include the information to reproduce the given problem, at which point it can be answered and other people in the same position can find the question and their answer. An answer that says, "I tried this code that I just wrote to replicate the problem you describe, but it doesn't replicate the problem you describe" isn't particularly helpful. It's not even a diagnostic tool. It's a divination tool. The OP just needs to post his code.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 18:07
  • @Servy - I think we fundamentally disagree here - the most helpful action, so far as I'm concerned, is to give people more tools to work out whether they're in the same situation as the OP or a different one. Now, you may be focussing a lot on the Meta-OPs question here - I'm not really considered whether their usage was valid or not - but I'm speaking for the general point of posting a not-quite-an-answer that may help everyone move along. Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 18:24
  • @Damien_The_Unbeliever Well, first off, if you want to talk about something entirely unrelated to the topic at hand, then start a new question, rather than proposing a solution that isn't relevant to the topic at hand. But having said that, I refer you again to my earlier comment The design of the site is that when you look through answers you see answers to the question. Filling answers with non-answers makes finding actual answers harder.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 18:41
  • @Servy - do you really believe that, in addition to finding answers to the question, finding information helping people to discover if they even are in the same situation unhelpful? Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 18:50
  • 1
    @Damien_The_Unbeliever When posted as an answer, yes. When posted using an appropriate medium, clarifying questions can certainly be useful. Basically the entire reason for the existance of the Q/A model in the first place, as opposed to traditional forum posts, is that future readers generally don't care at all about the discussion between the author and other readers about the process of finding the answer, they just want to see the answer, and don't want it buried among a complex discussion. As such, SO decided that answers should be treated differently than clarifying questions.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 18:55
7

If your primary concern is with making it easier for others to replicate the answer, then edit the code to replicate the issue into the question (with clear mark that it is not from the OP). Technically the OP should be providing that already, after all. Then you can easily just comment "I cannot replicate given the above code".

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    Editing the question will twist and falsify the question since it will not longer be the OPs question but an edited partial answer.
    – Sammaye
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 21:43
  • 5
    @Sammaye Absolutely not. Editing in how to produce the error (or, what 'should' produce the error) is perfectly reasonable - it is not a matter of answering the question at all, but it is something that ought to be in the question in the first place. Editing in sample fixed code would be, of course, but that would be an acceptable answer.
    – Joe
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 22:25
  • 1
    @Sammaye: If there's partial code in the question, this edit will NOT replace it, but add a self-contained compilable example on the end.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 6:47
  • 3
    I guess this would make sense if the code I was including in the question did replicate the behavior, however it seems confusing to say "here's some code that doesn't replicate the above" Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 11:25
  • 1
    Would this even work if you had to go through suggested edit approval?
    – Troyen
    Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 23:45
  • @Troyen Why wouldn't it?
    – Joe
    Commented Jun 20, 2014 at 13:42
  • Based on the commentary on MSO and my own experience trying to get more benign changes approved, I'd expect large edits to questions to be rejected as "too radical". Of course, depends on who exactly reviews the edit, but large edits seem to be discouraged for <2k users on SO.
    – Troyen
    Commented Jun 20, 2014 at 18:45
  • Well, I can't help whether people correctly approve edits or not... but it should work, in theory.
    – Joe
    Commented Jun 20, 2014 at 19:43
3

The balance at Stack Overflow is too much in favor of complete answers, and against part answers or even helpful leads.

What's wrong with allowing a complete answer to be created in stages? - Rather than never. A part answer gets me closer to a complete answer than no answer at all.

There is 1.7 million reasons to support this claim. 1.7 million questions without upvoted answers (20%), that could become helpful to seekers if partial answers of even useful leads were allowed as responses to the question. So often I find that the only questions that relate to my problem have no answers. Not to mention the upvoted answers that could be more useful with more information associated with them.

Additionally, more often than not, when im searching for solutions to my problems, Stack Overflow complete answers are just a part answer to my particular problem. So actual part answers are usually going to be just as useful to me.

How about a menu that lets users choose between "Answer", "Alternative strategy", "Suggestion"? "Answer"s get grouped at the top.

1
  • 3
    I agree, there needs to be more support in the community for partial answers. I don't think the site needs to change, rather update the rules so providing additional details as an answer does not get your answer down voted or deleted. Sometimes I spend 30 minutes researching a question with a high bounty, but don't actually find a solution. I should be able to post everything I learned as an answer without worrying about down votes. Commented Jun 20, 2014 at 12:30

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