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99 times already we have discussed burninating tags. Scrolling through those questions it is obvious that most such requests should be acted upon. Yet, we probably have covered only 1% of the useless tags on the site (Source: Me. My homepage is full of useless tags.).

It looks like the current tag destruction process is neither efficient nor effective. Do we really need to devote man-hours of time to discussing whether to light up and or not?

How could we do this differently?

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  • 33
    It's also unclear when a consensus has been made and the order to burn/no burn has been given.
    – gunr2171
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 16:16
  • 6
    Important background information: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/250933. Related post: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/220200
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 16:19
  • 1
    Related meta.stackexchange.com/q/124504/213575
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 17:25
  • 3
    You ought to explain "my homepage is full of useless tags". I'm guessing what you really meant is that somebody took it upon himself to remove tags and inadvertently launched a DOS-attack on your personalized SO front page. Yes, exceedingly painful and I wish they would not do that. Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 18:32
  • Related - Improved automated burnination Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 18:42
  • @gunr2171: exactly, and I think that unless there is a strong consensus, nothing should be done. Worse for tags where only a specific meaning is "wrong" and should be re/untagged.
    – PlasmaHH
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 19:26
  • 3
    "my homepage is full of useless tags" may also mean "I see lots of questions on the homepage that are tagged with irrelevant tags" (just as a result of being asked, not due to retagging efforts).
    – nobody
    Commented Jun 13, 2014 at 20:01

5 Answers 5

62

I tend to agree; in a case where the community has decided to pursue a mass-untagging/retagging, there must be a better way than spamming thousands of edits into the system.

The fact that that's our current course of action is ridiculous on the face of it. It's a huge waste of everybody's time, and allows somewhat shady users an extremely convenient and seemingly sanctioned way to game huge rep gains out of suggesting edits: First, we give them a huge target (thousands of questions needing trivial edits) and then we make it super easy to perform the minimum amount of editing possible. Edits that only remove a tag and address no other problems in the question are usually approved during tag burnination, when they should be rejected as too-minor in normal circumstances.

Moderators should petition the dev team for this ability, and then use it sparingly. I don't think we need to worry about the actual process of selecting which tags get burned (ie, "vote to burninate" buttons), the current meta process is fine, but once a burnination has been decided upon, virtually anything would be better than the current system.

There is an argument that this should be a manual process, where tags are removed and other problems are also addressed in the same edit. This isn't happening. We should cut out the middle man, stop letting users spam bad edits into the system, and just mass-untag via some moderator tool. A low-quality question was already a low-quality question, removing a meaningless tag isn't going to make it better or worse, but at least the job is done and we can move onto more important things.

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    How would automation work when a tag is too vague (e.g. [foo]), and questions using it need to be retagged to either, e.g., [java-foo], [c-foo], or [foo-bar] as appropriate?
    – Michelle
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 18:24
  • 2
    Why isn't removing tags from questions upon burnination automatic?
    – Dan
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 18:25
  • 6
    @Michelle Don't know. Maybe don't use the tool for retagging, only untagging? Counter-point: The current system doesn't work in that case either. Edit-spammers just remove the tag, they don't replace it with the correct one.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 18:25
  • @Dan: at least because this would lead some questions without tags at all, and quite some need retagging/closing/whatever anyways which should be done as a drive by
    – PlasmaHH
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 19:24
  • 8
    @PlasmaHH Well, having one useless tag isn't really any better than having no tags at all. And in those rare cases the orphaned tags can be addressed manually. It tends to be a small percentage of tags in any given cleanup effort. As for all of the other things that should be done, I'm going to repeat meagar's point, because it's just that important. As much as tag cleanups would benefit from these human editors fixing all of the problems with these questions, they don't actually do it. They just go through removing/replacing the tag without ever looking at anything else.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 19:38
  • @Servy: Yes, all the robo editing/reviewing etc. is a real problem, but should we really say "hey, it would happen anyways, so make this automatic"? I think in an automatic case, the chance to miss questions left with bad/none tags is 100%, while in non automatic process it is lower. Maybe we have to make a tradeof though to save work time. But if there is anything automatic, there should be a way to find those questions that still need work on, and not to have them float in limbo where no one will ever find them again.
    – PlasmaHH
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 19:41
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    @PlasmaHH A question with one bad tag has, for all intents and purposes, no tags. Removing the bad tag just makes it explicit. Ideally, a zero-tag question should fall into a larger pool of questions needing attention, since we know that questions can't normally be created without tags. That, I suppose, would be a different feature request: Some way of viewing the big list of "orphaned" questions with no tags.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 19:42
  • 1
    @PlasmaHH It's quite trivial to say that a manual cleanup needs to cover the 1% of questions in a cleanup in which that is the only tag, before running an automated process. Likewise, it's equally easy to rely on the automated task's function of applying the untagged tag when removing the last tag to create a queue of posts that need manual retagging (just search on that tag for posts that need some tag loving). These problems you're bringing up are very easy to solve without wasting tons of effort using human computers to automate tag cleanups.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 19:44
  • @Servy: If someone implements something that addresses all of these concerns, I am fine with it. It just seems to me that there is something harder than we think of, since otherwise this would have been done here already: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/124504/… if it is so trivial to add, why isn't the mentioned feature wrapped up and packaged already...
    – PlasmaHH
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 19:47
  • 1
    @PlasmaHH It's not done, as per past discussions, because the intent is that human tag janitors will fix more complex problems with these tags rather than just blindly removing them or blindly replacing them. If this theory were to have been correct, then it would be a valid justification. If it used to be correct, then it was the correct decision to make at the time. In my experiences, it's not correct now, and as such there is no reason to not automate this at this point in time. It's not done because of a theoretical ideal that is clearly not being achieved.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 19:51
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    Alternate feature request: Remove the +2 reward for suggesting edits...
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 19:51
  • @meagar: oh yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, YESSSS!
    – PlasmaHH
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 19:53
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    @meagar I think that that needs its own post, so that it doesn't get drowned out here.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 19:55
  • 2
    @Servy I'm pretty sure it's been suggested before and turned down, though it's something I'd love to see happen.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 19:57
  • Some worthless tags, like methods, have far too many questions to be able to do manually while trying to fix anything else at the same time.
    – dfeuer
    Commented Jun 13, 2014 at 7:44
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Let's have a monthly burnination spree. We collect ideas for burnination somewhere. Once a month, a moderator asks a single question about all tags collected at once. Every tag to potentially be destroyed is a added as an answer. People now vote and comment on everything for three days. After that, the same process that we have right now is started.

This is about efficiency. We no longer need to click open many questions and work through them. The process no longer occupies the mind of the meta people frequently and intermittently. Thinking about it once per month is enough. And we can track the status of our efforts in one place.


The question could look like this:

Burnination decisions 2014-06

Here are the burnination requests collected during the last month. Please observe the usual rules (linked or repeated here).


An answer could look like this:

  • Q: Will this tag ever be favorited or excluded? A: No, it means nothing specifically.
  • Q: Will this tag ever clarify a question? A: No, even in addition to other tags is will not help.
  • Q: How could we retag? A: ...
  • Q: What decision has been made and by whom? A: None yet.
  • Q: What's the retagging status? A: Not yet begun (update this line!).

Answers could give a short reasoning and track the status of this tag.

As long as the developers don't give us proper "IT support" for burnination we can do with this simple convention.

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  • As long as the discussion about the tags is short enough to stay in the comments, this could work.
    – gunr2171
    Commented Jun 12, 2014 at 16:50
  • What about testing this process once? Depending on how it goes, it could become monthly, yearly... or at worst, "oncely". It looks like that its main advantage is that anyone can launch it with very little special authorization and no new tools to develop. Commented May 14, 2018 at 12:38
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I think the “key” part of any process is a mod should be able to “lock” a tag.

A locked tag should not be allowed to be used on any new questions, if someone tries to use it, they should be shown a message explain why the given tag is not allowed to be used.

An edit to a question should still be allowed if it had a “banished” tag, provided the tags are not change. If any tags are changed, then the banished tag should have to be removed by the person that is editing the tags.

We then need an option a mod can enable to “hide” a given “locked” tag so it does not show up on any question that has it, but can still be used for searching.

So process will be:

  • Agreement tag is not useful,
  • Mod locks tag and write message to be shown to anyone that trieds to use the tag.
  • Questions with the tag, that needs to have another tags added are dealt with, (e.g. question only have 1 tag)
  • Mod then hides the tag.
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  • So with this idea would unlock proposals have to be a meta discussion?
    – Amicable
    Commented Jun 13, 2014 at 12:24
  • @Amicable that up to the mods to decide on each site. Commented Jun 13, 2014 at 12:51
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Maybe the 1500 rep threshold for creating a tag is too low? Perhaps if one needed 3000 rep to make a tag, tags would be created more responsibly, by a smaller group of people?

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    At this point why not raise it even higher? There are plenty of 10k rep and higher users.
    – N_A
    Commented Jun 13, 2014 at 19:48
  • Yes! Otherwise people create random tags just to get the taxonomist-badge. Commented Jun 14, 2014 at 8:19
2

I think we still need some kind of meta consensus about almost every single tag. Going on a burnination spree without the community consent just calls for trouble, and if it only is a bunch of moderator flags for edit reviews when someone serial retags.

I see some problems with any kind of automated tools to remove tags.

  • they might leave a question completely untagged
  • the question might have further problems (not uncommon for totally useless tags) and further action needs to be done (delete, more retagging, editing etc.) that should definetly be done as a "drive by".

What might be useful is a tool that pumps questions into a special branch of the edit queue, at a certain rate (maybe with more than one approve necessary). Additionally to the current display, it would display a link to the burnination meta post, along with some "free text" explaining the desired action (e.g. "retag everything" or "retag only the meaning of XXX").

The rate should depend on the current throughput of the edit queue so that N% of all edit reviews are tag burnination reviews.

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  • 1
    Yes, it has been the justification from the very start that tag cleanup should be done manually so that other problems with the posts can be fixed, rather than only removing a tag or replacing it with another tag. Sadly this doesn't actually happen and when a tag cleanup does actually happen it just ends up being a few people mechanically removing/replacing the tags without looking at anything else. This results in a ton more work than automating it with none of the benefits of human intervention.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 19:41
  • @Servy: Can we back this up with some hard numbers? I know from myself that after a while you get somewhat frustrated with all the crap going on on SO but it might be that since there is so much going on, the absolute amount of crap seems to be bad, but the relative isn't that much. It might be ok if for a (semi)-manual process only 30% of the questions that should be improved otherwise are.
    – PlasmaHH
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 19:44
  • That's the problem with a manual process, there's no real way to say. Who can know whether an edit/vote to close/flag is due to someone going the extra mile in a tag cleanup vs someone who just happened to come across a question that coincidentally fell into a tag cleanup.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 19:46
  • @Servy: maybe we can just write this off as statistical uncertainty and use tags with more than N (1000?) where the chance of this happening is probably low, and just look at a time span from "burnination approved" +X days?
    – PlasmaHH
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 19:49
  • But a large sample size doesn't fix the problem. If there is a 20% chance that a given post will be randomly found by someone and improved in some way over a given period of time, tag cleanup or no tag cleanup, your proposed metric would incorrectly attribute that to the tag cleanup. I would also expect that the standard deviation of "review actions on questions in a given tag" to be sufficiently high that you couldn't just use non-cleanup tags as a control.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 19:54
  • @Servy: I doubt that number, but unless we have a way to measure it, it is a valid point. Can we maybe hack up some heuristics based on the history of questions with these tags before the burnination requestion and use that as a kind of baseline/background to view the new development over?
    – PlasmaHH
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 19:57
  • You also need to account for the fact that the edits that just edit nothing but the tags are bumping the posts in the activity feeds, potentially resulting in extra attention from people not involved in the tag cleanup. That can't really be measured through control groups.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 19:59
  • they might leave a question completely untagged - there are already processes in place that cause this to happen sometimes (e.g. deletion of single-use tags after six months).
    – senshin
    Commented Jun 12, 2014 at 6:36

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