175

I'm confused. In the answers to the 2021 Moderator Election questionnaire, Zoe's answer to question 5 is:

Realistically, I wouldn't be alone in handling this. I'll show support for the user in question if no one else gets to it before me, and I'll gladly dismantle a few arguments, but I'm just not sure how to deal with these situations. That's where the other mods come in.

and Shree's answer is:

Realistically, I wouldn't be alone in dealing with this. If no one else responds before me, I'll demonstrate my support for the user in issue, and I'll gladly dismantle a few arguments, but I'm not sure how to handle these cases.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding things, but that looks like one of them has copied the other. Or are they both copied from some other resource that I'm unaware of? It makes it hard to know whether any of the answers from either of them are genuinely their own words.

11
  • 22
    You can use Google to easily determine if the text is copied from elsewhere. Then, having concluded its originality, you can look further to see when it was first posted to the election page. I think you will then have all of the information that you need to make a decision.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 5:37
  • 2
    Thanks @CodyGray, it's early for me, I should have thought of both of those :D Having answered the question, I'm in two minds about whether or not to leave this post here. It feels a little unfair to highlight the similarity. Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 5:47
  • 23
    Doesn't seem unfair to me. You aren't slinging accusations. People can make their own decisions about what it means, as well as do their own independent confirmation.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 5:51
  • 26
    That this only comes up today is probably indicative on how much weight is generally given to candidate answers to the questionnaire when choosing who to vote.
    – yivi
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 6:04
  • 9
    @yivi To be fair, It's hard to compare given the SO design. SO should've put each of their answers side by side or designed it that one question has all answers by all contestants - similar to the question/answer format followed by all tags in the rest of SO.
    – TheMaster
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 6:09
  • 27
    @yivi Today is the first day of voting. It makes sense that today would be the first day that someone reads the questionnaire answers carefully.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 6:10
  • 2
    Good point, @Cody. Hadn't thought of it that way. Personally, I've already cast my votes and yeah, I confess to have only read a couple of answers per candidate, at most.
    – yivi
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 6:13
  • 17
    Boy, am I thankful for the feature that lets us change our votes for as long as the election process is still live... I'll have to keep an eye on election...
    – walen
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 13:17
  • 1
    @DaveyDaveDave why did you use the word "identical" here?
    – Nike
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 19:15
  • 10
    Isn't this exactly how programmers solve things when they browse SO?
    – holydragon
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 9:47
  • 6
    @holydragon - Its certainly how many politicians handle elections
    – Sayse
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 10:47

4 Answers 4

51

It's not Zoe's fault, I copied Zoe's answer.

With that question, I agree with Zoe's answer. When I copy that answer, I'm not sure what's going through my head.

It's a blunder on my part.

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  • 34
    "With that question"? What about questions 1, 2 and 10? The answers seem very similar there as well...
    – Tomerikoo
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 9:10
  • 21
    Now you're accusing me.
    – 4b0
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 9:19
  • 22
    The first sentence of question 9 appears to borrow phrasing from mine, as well. "Assume good faith where reasonable, but strive to educate and improve." (mine) vs. "Wherever possible assume good faith but endeavor to educate and improve." (yours).
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 9:31
  • 18
    I struggled with whether to point this out at all (and ignored it until I saw this), because I really do think you're an incredible asset to the community, based on your dedicated work in SOBotics and SOCVR. I still might change my mind and delete these comments. But a few of these answers really do seem to be based on other candidates' answers.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 9:31
  • 75
    I have an impression that Shree has some difficulty with expressing their thoughts in English. All answers are very brief. In such cases it is tempting to use some ready phrases that are available. Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 9:39
  • 15
    Thank you for your honesty in this answer. Please also consider responding to the similarities to Ryan's answers. I will think better of you as a candidate if you do. Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 11:16
  • 49
    I've had difficulty expressing myself in English all my life. That's no reason to plagiarize someone else's answers. And it is very concerning to see Meta's reaction to plagiarism when it is done by someone they root for.
    – user2285236
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 16:23
  • 47
    They did not borrow a few keywords. They either copied directly or downright paraphrased others' answers. Not their words but their ideas. And again, speaking from experience, if you are already at a level where you can paraphrase sentences, you can of course find a way to express yourself.
    – user2285236
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 16:39
  • 73
    These actions do not represent the expected behavior of a moderator.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 22:49
  • 19
    If you agree with their answer and have nothing to add, just say that: "I agree with [Zoe/Ryan M/Dharman]'s answer and have nothing to add."
    – gparyani
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 0:05
  • 37
    @TadeuszKopec Even if we take that at face value: if someone has enough difficulty with English that they cannot formulate brief answers to these kinds of questions, then regardless of their character, they are probably not the most suitable person to moderate an English-language site. Moderators on Stack Overflow will routinely have to read and act on posts, comments and flags written in English, and explain their decisions and actions to other users in English. So it's at most a defense of Shree's character, not a defense of their suitability to be a moderator.
    – kaya3
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 0:36
  • 29
    Well... a moderator is expected to deal with a lot of issues related to plagiarism where someone copies the contents of an SO post and post it as their own, with no attribution given. If someone doesn't understand why this is unacceptable and something you can even get banned for, they are very far from being the person who hands out such a ban.
    – Lundin
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 13:34
  • 16
    @Jean-FrançoisFabre Is it? Plagiarism is bad enough when it is for imaginary internet points. It's a very serious thing when done in an attempt to earn access to real-world power/information.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 13:45
  • 16
    Thanks for your honesty on this issue, it's appreciated. Being a member of Charcoal (and therefore anti-spam, plagiarism, etc.), I take this seriously. It's not what's expected of an elected moderator or a candidate. I'm kinda conflicted over this, especially as a moderator is supposed to be preventing this sort of stuff from happening - I fear that any issue you might deal with in future that involves plagiarism will bounce back at you with a link to this post. Not to mention how this'll affect your election results. No one can forget the incredible curation work you've done, but...
    – Ollie
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 17:17
  • 17
    @Shree In the light that you seem to have paraphrased/copied the majority (7/10) of your answers (see the other answers below), what action would you take if you came across such a case in your work as a moderator?
    – Fabian
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 20:30
96

Apologies for the extra table, but I wanted to highlight something @41686d6564 pointed out in the comments. I've run each of the alleged original responses through a paraphrasing tool (QuillBot) and the comparisons between the suggested text and the answers to the questionnaire are interesting.

Similar QuillBot AI Shree
1 I'd start off with the standard warning if the comments genuinely push over the line. I don't entirely understand what "arguments" is meant to refer to in this context - a "regular" chain of argumentative comments is potentially fine, but depends on the context. (Zoe) If the comments truly cross the line, I'd start with the normal warning. I'm not sure what "arguments" means in this case - a "normal" series of contentious comments could be fine, but it depends on the context. If the comments truly cross the line, I'd start with the normal warning. I'm not sure what "arguments" means in this situation - a "normal" chain of contentious comments could be fine, but it all relies on the context.
2 Depends on the close reason and the context. If it's a dupe, I'm more inclined to take action first and explain later. That said, when it comes to undoing moderative actions, I'm generally careful. I'll rather check unnecessarily (either with the mod in question, or other users) if I believe whatever action that was taken to have been wrong. (Zoe) It depends on the context and the close reason. If it's a con, I'm more likely to act first and then explain later. However, I'm generally cautious when it comes to undoing moderative activities. I'd rather double-check (either with the mod in question or with other users) if I believe whatever action was taken was incorrect. It is dependent on the context and the close reason. I'm generally cautious when it comes to undoing moderative activities. I'd rather double-check (either with the mod in question or with other users) if I believe whatever action was taken was incorrect.
3 (I've found that dupes require domain knowledge a lot more frequently than a few of the other close categories), getting more eyes on it before taking action matters. (Zoe) I've discovered that dupes necessitate domain expertise far more frequently than some of the other close categories, so getting multiple eyes on it before acting is critical. (After parentheses removed) I've discovered that dupes necessitate domain expertise far more frequently than some of the other close categories, so getting other eyes on it before acting is critical.
4 Because I was not ready at that time, learning times proceeded, and I believe it was a good time to proceed.
5 Realistically, I wouldn't be alone in handling this. I'll show support for the user in question if no one else gets to it before me, and I'll gladly dismantle a few arguments, but I'm just not sure how to deal with these situations. That's where the other mods come in. (Zoe) I wouldn't be alone in dealing with this, realistically. If no one else responds before me, I'll demonstrate my support for the user in issue, and I'll gladly dismantle a few arguments, but I'm not sure how to handle these cases. The other mods step in at this point. (Second version) I wouldn't be alone in dealing with this, realistically. If no one else responds before me, I'll demonstrate my support for the user in issue, and I'll gladly dismantle a few arguments, but I'm not sure how to handle these cases.
6 The candidate score and badge really matter? It's number and my participate on site already demonstrate that.
7 Code-only answers aren't great, but they are still an attempt at answering. They should not be deleted unless they are incomprehensible without an explanation or they look like they might not even be attempts at answering at all. Vigilance is required to determine whether an answer should be deleted or not. ... Users that perform incorrect reviews, need to be reminded of the general guidance. We have plenty of material on meta that can be used to improve our review skills. (Dharman) Although code-only answers aren't ideal, they are nevertheless an attempt to respond. They should not be deleted unless they are incoherent without an explanation or appear to be efforts at answering rather than genuine responses. To evaluate whether a response should be erased or not, vigilance is essential.... Users that write inaccurate reviews should be warned of the basic guidelines. On meta, we have many of resources to help us enhance our review skills. Although code-only answers aren't ideal, they are nevertheless an attempt to respond. They should not be deleted unless they are incoherent without an explanation or appear to be efforts at answering rather than genuine responses. Users that write inaccurate reviews should be warned of the basic guidelines. On meta, we have many of resources to help us enhance our review skills.
8 Voting fraud ? Every night around 03:00 UTC, fraud detection script run and handle the situation. Don't care much about downvote. Toxic behavior must nuked.
9 Assume good faith where reasonable, but strive to educate and improve. (Ryan M) Wherever possible, assume good faith, but endeavor to educate and improve. Wherever possible, assume good faith, but endeavor to educate and improve. If this is not the case, comments must be removed.
10 I don't want to comment much on this because, as is the case with several other questions here, depends on context. I'll voice my opinion internally if I believe it's necessary, but if I see real value to the community, I'll be more inclined to be in favor of it in the first place. (Zoe) I'm not going to say anything about this because it depends on context, as it does with several other topics here. If I believe it is necessary, I will express my opinion privately, but if I perceive true benefit to the community, I will be more inclined to support it in the first place. I don't want to comment much on this because, as in the case with several other questions here, depends on context. I'll voice my opinion internally if I believe it's necessary, but if I see real value to the community, I'll be more inclined to be in favor of it in the first place.

Some of these answers rely on older revisions of the questionnaire, answer #10 has been edited for example. I didnt' see any similarities when I ran the other questions through the tool.

4
  • 1
    Confession time: One time I took what a teacher wrote down, and rephrased it to seem like I wrote a definition in my own words. Looking between what Quill wrote and what Shree wrote, it looks very likely that Shree did do some rephrasing. Especially with number 10, the rephrasing from "I'm not going to say anything about this" to "I don't want to comment much on this".
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 0:04
  • 1
    However, the said rephrasing requires significant knowledge of english (such as the rephrasing of "I will express my opinion privately" to "I will voice my opinion internally"), so I can't see it happening. I feel like this is all speculation.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 0:05
  • 20
    @10Rep Both of those "rephrasings" in number 10 are not rephrasing, they're word-for-word text from Zoe's answer.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 0:10
  • 12
    Also number 4, 6, and 8, which don't seem to be paraphrased from another answer, shows a different writing style to the others.
    – justhalf
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 6:35
48

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding things, but that looks like one of them has copied the other. Or are they both copied from some other resource that I'm unaware of? It makes it hard to know whether any of the answers from either of them are genuinely their own words.

It looks like Shree copied most of his answers from Zoe, and some answers from Dharman and Ryan M. In general, he did this by changing some of the words with their synonyms and changing the order of the words. For example, Zoe's sentence in her first answer, "a 'regular' chain chain of argumentative comments is potentially fine, but depends on the context." becomes "a 'normal' chain of contentious comments could be fine, but it relies on the context." in Shree's answer. This pattern seems to repeat itself in most of his answers so I would say this is not really a blunder but rather an intentional act.

I've attached a summary of Shree's answers and the original answers. If these were answers to the question on Stack Overflow, they would surely be deleted due to plagiarism. Given that moderators are "held to a higher standard of behavior" (A Theory of Moderation) and we are already at the election phase so there is no chance of going back and fixing these errors, I would expect Shree to withdraw his nomination from this election, and nominate himself again in a future election.

Shree's answer Similar Answer
1 If the comments truly cross the line, I'd start with the normal warning. I'm not sure what "arguments" means in this situation - a "normal" chain of contentious comments could be fine, but it all relies on the context. I'd start off with the standard warning if the comments genuinely push over the line. I don't entirely understand what "arguments" is meant to refer to in this context - a "regular" chain of argumentative comments is potentially fine, but depends on the context. (Zoe)
2 It is dependent on the context and the close reason. I'm generally cautious when it comes to undoing moderative activities. I'd rather double-check (either with the mod in question or with other users) if I believe whatever action was taken was incorrect. Depends on the close reason and the context. If it's a dupe, I'm more inclined to take action first and explain later. That said, when it comes to undoing moderative actions, I'm generally careful. I'll rather check unnecessarily (either with the mod in question, or other users) if I believe whatever action that was taken to have been wrong. (Zoe)
3 I've discovered that dupes necessitate domain expertise far more frequently than some of the other close categories, so getting other eyes on it before acting is critical. (I've found that dupes require domain knowledge a lot more frequently than a few of the other close categories), getting more eyes on it before taking action matters. (Zoe)
4 Because I was not ready at that time, learning times proceeded, and I believe it was a good time to proceed.
5 I wouldn't be alone in dealing with this, realistically. If no one else responds before me, I'll demonstrate my support for the user in issue, and I'll gladly dismantle a few arguments, but I'm not sure how to handle these cases. Realistically, I wouldn't be alone in handling this. I'll show support for the user in question if no one else gets to it before me, and I'll gladly dismantle a few arguments, but I'm just not sure how to deal with these situations. That's where the other mods come in. (Zoe)
6 The candidate score and badge really matter? It's number and my participate on site already demonstrate that.
7 Although code-only answers aren't ideal, they are nevertheless an attempt to respond. They should not be deleted unless they are incoherent without an explanation or appear to be efforts at answering rather than genuine responses. Users that write inaccurate reviews should be warned of the basic guidelines. On meta, we have many of resources to help us enhance our review skills. Code-only answers aren't great, but they are still an attempt at answering. They should not be deleted unless they are incomprehensible without an explanation or they look like they might not even be attempts at answering at all. Vigilance is required to determine whether an answer should be deleted or not. ... Users that perform incorrect reviews, need to be reminded of the general guidance. We have plenty of material on meta that can be used to improve our review skills. (Dharman)
8 Voting fraud ? Every night around 03:00 UTC, fraud detection script run and handle the situation. Don't care much about downvote. Toxic behavior must nuked.
9 Wherever possible, assume good faith, but endeavor to educate and improve. If this is not the case, comments must be removed. Assume good faith where reasonable, but strive to educate and improve. (Ryan M)
10 I don't want to comment much on this because, as in the case with several other questions here, depends on context. I'll voice my opinion internally if I believe it's necessary, but if I see real value to the community, I'll be more inclined to be in favor of it in the first place. I don't want to comment much on this because, as is the case with several other questions here, depends on context. I'll voice my opinion internally if I believe it's necessary, but if I see real value to the community, I'll be more inclined to be in favor of it in the first place. (Zoe)
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    "there is no chance of going back and fixing these errors" -- I just made two (insignificant; for science) edits to my questionnaire and nomination. Doesn't look too late to me Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 22:23
  • 18
    "this is not really a blunder but rather an intentional act." - What stops it being both? It was intentional... and still a mistake. - Regardless, I don't think this answer is remotely useful, they've admitted to what they've done and calling out every place that they copied is simply shaming them. Everyone knows Shree struggles to communicate in English and makes mistakes doing so. While I'm not impressed that he copied, I understand why he did, and frankly would still consider him an asset to the mod team and him withdrawing would be a mistake. Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 22:29
  • 4
    @Zoe The election has already started and some people have already voted so I would disagree that editing now solves the problem.
    – user2285236
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 22:33
  • 24
    This answer is useful in that it allows people to make their own judgement about the extent of the answers' originality. That said, it is unfortunate that it combines the information with an opinion about what should be done with that information. It would be better to split this into a neutral post containing only the information, and a separate post containing the opinion on what should be done in response. That way, the information and the opinion can be voted on separately.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 22:36
  • 25
    I could be wrong (and I apologize to Shree in advance if I am) but those "rephrased" answers look like they were generated using some sort of a paraphraser tool. For example, I used this tool, copied the first "original" answer from the table above and pasted it there. I got results that are almost identical to Shree's version: 1, 2.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 22:51
  • 26
    @Nick Plagiarism is not an issue that you can apologize for and move forward. The answers are still there and people are voting based on those answers. I am not shaming anybody but given that Shree hasn't taken any public action to fix the issue, I feel like the level of similarity has to be shown because the question only talks about a single answer.
    – user2285236
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 22:51
  • 16
    I agree ayhan. Moreover, this is made worse by the fact that Shree only addressed the single answer here, and clearly not the whole set of answers, which all had the same approach used.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 22:53
  • 8
    @TravisJ When I thought it was a single sentence, I was willing to overlook it as simple agreement and a few borrowed words. What I've seen after looking more closely, I cannot overlook.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 22:58
  • 14
    @41686d6564 Of the six provided answers I checked with that tool, they all matched. The only differences were slight additions, a handful of corrections when it suggested the wrong word, and one or two times a difficult to understand sentence was removed. Damn.
    – anon
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 23:12
  • 10
    FWIW, I'm not seeing any unique approaches in any of the other candidate answers either. They all seem to parrot the same tone/idea.
    – TheMaster
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 23:13
  • 16
    Thanks for putting this together, ayhan. Your answer taken along with this denial above has made me retract the vote I had cast. Not sure what compelled @Shree to so blatantly plagiarize other answers when he's clearly able to express himself in English just fine, or what compels others in the comments to hold him to a lower standard just because English isn't his first language. It's frankly insulting to non-native English speakers. Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 23:52
  • 7
    Shree isn't a native English speaker, he can express himself, but harder in English, he needed to copy some of other nominations questionnaire answers, so he can express himself. I believe he would be a good moderator. I disagree about your statement of "I would expect Shree to withdraw his nomination from this election". There are also not a lot of versions on how to answer these questionnaires, what do you expect a non native English speaker to do? Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 1:14
  • 15
    @U12-Forward Write the answers in their own language and translate it using a translation service.
    – user12867493
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 1:22
  • 31
    I had initially ranked Shree above multiple other candidates, in part based on the questionnaire answers reassuring me that their English communication was sufficient for the job. Upon learning that they those answers seem to be mostly written by other candidates, I felt that I had been deceived. As a moderator interacting with the community and explaining your moderation actions, you won't have other people's answers to copy from. I'd expect anyone to write their own answers, as we require everywhere on the site. If one wants to simply state agreement, do so. But don't copy without citations.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 1:35
  • 30
    @U12-Forward Not sure where you got this idea from. Shree said no such thing in his answer here. It's insulting to all non-native English speakers to suggest their only recourse to express themselves is to plagiarize other candidates' answers word for word without attribution. I would also like to hear what makes you think he would be a good moderator in light of the fact that you think he cannot express himself well enough in English without copying from others, and that he committed an act of plagiarism, something which is forbidden on SE. Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 1:49
48

I think at some point, we need to think hard about what those questionaires are going to give us.

Right now, with the exception of maybe one or two questions that change every cycle, it has become cookie cutter questions that basically allow only one answer. There is a "correct" answer. The question is just, does the candidate know it (should be trivial if you want to be a moderator) and how many different ways of phrasing the same answer do we find before we need to look for English Majors instead of developers for the moderator job.

While I think copying verbatim is bad... maybe we should think about the fact why we have those questions to start with. They don't seem to do their job, when you need to "paraphrase better", instead of actually showing differences between moderator candidates, the question certainly does not help me to decide.

As an example, let’s take the first question:

How would you deal with a user who produced a steady stream of valuable answers, but tends to generate a large number of arguments/flags from comments?

How many different ways of saying "I will treat everybody the same regardless of points" / "I will look into each flag if they are right about it" are there? Do we have any candidate that said something else?

And if all candidates basically just have the same answer, then what good is this question? And the same goes for many others.

6
  • 5
    And if all candidates basically just have the same answer, then what good is this question? Exactly. So, some "exact" words were used by these two candidates. But the idea is exactly the same among all answers. Honestly, I would've picked the odd one out to the top, even if they didn't give the "correct" answer, but spoke from their heart.
    – TheMaster
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 11:04
  • 37
    While I don't disagree that the questions are mostly fluff, IMO that is entirely irrelevant to the fact that a candidate in this mod election a) plagiarized content and b) does not seem to be comfortable expressing themselves in english and thus resorted to plagiarization. A debate about the usefulness of the questionaire should be entirely separate from the debate about the plagiarization.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 11:53
  • 34
    Au contraire, this very meta question shows that we learn a lot about a candidate from their answers. Just not always in the way we were expecting.
    – Laurel
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 14:33
  • 13
    Well, but if we had questions that actually require the candidate to do more than paraphrasing "the one correct answer", we would have noticed this much sooner.
    – nvoigt
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 15:31
  • Fun fact: I had actually proposed a rephrasing of this question back when they were selecting questions that'd expand its scope to other places where arguments/flags can be generated in addition to comments as well as provide specific examples. But the team opted to use the original wording instead.
    – gparyani
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 20:31
  • 6
    Seems like your thoughts are a a separate question now...
    – Suraj Rao
    Commented Oct 21, 2021 at 14:34

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