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How to handle the stream of new-user questions (Caveat: the subset of beginner questions [on the topic of Python classes] that are good, as in **"a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development", per the SO FAQ: what's on-topic. Rants about bad questions and how badly they deserve to die are offtopic)

Since even the good ones get closed (often mistakenly) as offtopic they'll never get any canonical, so in order to not be unwelcoming to beginners, when we handle/close the good ones, what else should we do/not do? There is a real and non-trivial paradigm shift when migrating to Python from PERL, Java or SQL.

  • are they on-topic for CodeReview.SE? SoftwareEngineering.SE? if not, then where in SE universe to migrate to? if nowhere, then isn't that damaging to how SO handles (good) beginners' questions?
  • also, it's often ok to vote-to-migrate/close, but why should quality questions get downvoted heavily (as long as the code is near-working, shows effort, is not VLQ/Too Broad, asks a coherent question)? Seems unreasonable.
  • should we tag them? , or what? (Incidentally, this is also a clear reason why suggestions to burninate class would make SO/SE new-user-unfriendly)

Examples:

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  • 6
    "damaging" -> just how fragile do you believe they are? Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 23:25
  • 1
    @MarkBenningfield: IMO, that's more of a statement on how savage we are with our code quality. One I both agree and struggle with.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 23:55
  • @MarkBenningfield: that's exactly the sort of sneering that we badly need to lose on SO; "damaging" means "damaging to SO site and how well it handles beginners", not "damaging to asker's ego". Obvious tractable example: way back when I learned Python, it's hard to understand the difference between a class variable and an instance variable (/property), and on the occasions I made the wrong class design decision, it led me down a non-OO path.
    – smci
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 0:02
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    @smci: You'll have to forgive me, the quote is "damaging to beginners", so I naturally assumed you meant "damaging to asker's ego". I'll try to get it right next time. Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 0:05
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    SO inherently handles 'beginners' bad questions badly because it's not a site for beginners bad questions. 'professional and enthusiast programmers' excludes those with insufficient competence and seeking basic tuition. SO is not primarily a teaching site. Asking how to use classes in an OO language is asking for tution, no matter how clearly and eruditely it is phrased. Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 0:37
  • @MartinJames: not necessarily, no. Asking when to use property vs method, class-member vs instance-member, classmethod vs instancemethod, when to delegate, when to composite vs subclass, when to separate out methods into a separate mixin class, how to follow srp or Law of Demeter are all examples of asking how to use classes. These are things that both beginners and experienced users struggle with. No that's not tuition. SO is not an ego-tripping platform, it allows asking "a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development")
    – smci
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 0:44
  • (Witness the number of advanced talks on this topic at Python conferences. Cannot be dismissed as "newbie-only" question. You all seem to dismiss questions asked by beginners as being necessarily low-grade).
    – smci
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 0:44
  • 1
    @smci then your meta question is too broad. If there are specific issues with specifc problems, rather than 'Python for Dummies' copypasta, then I would agree that such questions are not off-topic for SO. If, however,, copypasta of the exact title into a popular search engine returns 'About 19,500,000 results', with several SO Q&A on the first page, I would say dupe or off-topic/tutorial request. Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 0:50
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    Good questions about design should have a home on SE.SE, and I don't even think the more hands-in-code variety are really out of scope for SO. Well-written posts that evaluate to requests for mentoring aren't good StackExchange questions. I think this is the root of the disconnect in the comments and answers here.
    – jscs
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 0:55
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    I'm trying very hard to remain 'nice' here. 'sneering' 'ego-tripping' etc. are getting perilously close to rude and abusive:( Is this meta thread about to spiral into 'egotistic, uncaring, fascist mob-downvoting trolls' territory? If so, I want no part of it. Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 0:58
  • 2
    I don't think repeatedly declaring a question on-topic actually makes it so.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 5:22
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    I’m commenting as a Python expert and as an experienced answerer: You are mistaken in thinking these are all good questions. Many of them are simply too broad. The third in the list is just a debugging question, wrapped in a beginners doubt and misunderstanding, but at least it contained an MCVE. The fourth one was just a debugging question, but lacked the MCVE; it was off-topic because it was just a typo. These are hardly good examples.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 9:43
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    Note that when a question is too broad, it no longer is a practical, answerable question.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 9:48
  • 2
    @MartijnPieters indeed, they are good questions to ask in a classroom or a study group, an environment where you can receive personal guidance and support. Things any website totally suck at. On websites where it is condoned it generally doesn't end up being a pretty process as far as I've seen in my many years of forum-dwelling. Something that would have been tackled in a 30 minute sparring session ends up being a gruelling 2-day back and forth where one dictates what to type next and the other stops thinking.
    – Gimby
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 9:50
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    Side note: if you are going to edit these questions, please do read the post and try to correct all mistakes and spelling errors. I must always be written as a capital, keyword is not spelled keyboard, don’t repeat tags in th title where feasible, remove ‘thanks’ and EDIT: noise, etc. I do appreciate that you edited some of these to focus on the actual problem at hand, rather than the vague 'how do I use a class' direction.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 9:53

2 Answers 2

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are they on-topic for CodeReview.SE?

No, it's not a code review.

SoftwareEngineering.SE?

Not what you've described, no. It'd be Too Broad, for starters.

if not, then where in SE universe to migrate to?

Nowhere. Don't migrate crap. Only migrate good questions.

if nowhere, then isn't that damaging to beginners?

It's the consequences of them asking a bad question. Trying to ignore that they've done something wrong would be extremely damaging to the entirety of the rest of the community. Why do you think others should be burdened with dealing with the problems that they have caused, and why shouldn't they have to deal with the consequences of their own actions?

also, it's ok to vote-to-migrate/close,

Not migrate, no, but close, yes.

but why should they get downvoted heavily (as long as the code is near-working, shows effort, and the question is coherent albeit offtopic for SO)? Seems unreasonable.

Because, "This question does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful" That's the downvote tooltip. The upvote tooltip says, "This question shows research effort; it is useful and clear" not, "They tried hard, posted some code, and their question is somewhat coherent". The site simply has higher standards than, "the question is coherent". You think it's unreasonable to have higher than normal quality standards, and yet that's the reason there's so much useful content on the site, and why there's so little useful information on so many other sites.

should we tag them?

No. Don't waste your time trying to figure out how to tag an unsalvageable question. Save your time for a question that's worth keeping.

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  • (Aside: I really do feel like "No, it's not a code review" deserves to be bold. Or title text. Y'know.)
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 23:54
  • Servy: You're grossly misrepresenting me as having made some sort of appeal to save bad questions, I specifically said the opposite ("as long as the code is near-working, shows effort, and the question is coherent albeit offtopic for SO") Many of the questions with non-working code are not "crap questions", they highlight changes in paradigm which each of us had to make when migrating to Python. Who says they're not necessarily a code review?Some of them are. They each might or might not be a code review, you have to make an individual determination, you can't just react to the title
    – smci
    Commented Jan 25, 2018 at 23:56
  • Makoto and Servy: you're both grossly misrepresenting what I wrote, just stop already. The subset that are valid code-review-type questions are valid code-review-type questions, the non-c/r ones are not. The subset that are valid SWEng ones are valid SWEng ones, the ones that aren't, aren't. Questions should not bounce around the SO/SE universe for weeks until they find their rightful home (if any). The ones that are good beginner questions (shows effort, has decent code, coherent, asks an actual question) yet still offtopic for SO, should simply be closed with no downvotes.
    – smci
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 0:02
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    @smci: The point isn't to let bad questions bounce around. It's to shoot them dead where they stand so they don't have the opportunity to bounce anymore. You may be missing some context with the whole "code review" thing, but I would encourage you to read their tour and see what they want as on-topic there before assuming that a beginner question would qualify there.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 0:05
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    Downvotes are not inherently harmful to the poster. They are a very important metric to denote quality, and useful signal to automated systems like the roomba. Not downvoting is actually more actively harmful to the site than anything else.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 0:08
  • @Makoto: stop misrepresenting me! This question is about the subset of beginner questions [on the topic of Python classes] that are good, albeit offtopic on SO. There is zero value a to a Two Minutes Hate on bad questions.
    – smci
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 0:10
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    @smci "near working" code is not welcome on CR... Overall it sounds like you use "good" as synonym of "well written" and Servy/Makoto using "bad" as synonym of "not suitable" - I don't think there is any "misrepresenting"... Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 0:38
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    This is SO and SO meta. How can question be both 'good' and 'off-topic'? Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 0:42
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    If the argument is that the questions are good somewhere else, fine - they can be not-downvoted somewhere else. Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 0:43
  • @MartinJames: I just double-checked SO FAQ and it explicitly says "a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development". So actually many of those questions aren't even off-topic, or bad. I should have said "frequently miscategorized or dismissed as being offtopic". So, for some of those "Leave open on SO" is the correct answer.
    – smci
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 0:50
  • @AlexeiLevenkov: for the subset where the question asks "a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development"", then it's on-topic on SO itself, and near-working code is perfectly acceptable. You can find lots of such examples. No, I used "good" as meaning "good", as per SO FAQ: what's on-topic
    – smci
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 0:52
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    @smci "good, albeit offtopic on SO" does not align with "good per FAQ"... just saying. Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 1:05
  • @AlexeiLevenkov: 20-30 minutes ago we determined that SO FAQ says some of them are on-topic, and I shouldn't have even conceded "good, albeit offtopic". So that's resolved.
    – smci
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 1:12
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    @smci some off-topic questions are on-topic? I'm completely confused now. The questions still states that it is about posts that are "offtopic for SO" and seem to be disagreeing with downvotes on such off-topic questions. I'll wait till you or someone figures out what exactly you mean and edit the question than before any more comments. Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 1:24
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    @smci but your examples have NOTHING to do with the kind of questions you talk about.... that's why the conversation seems "derailed"... you talk about "good, on topic questions" then provide "bad, off topic questions"....
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 4:13
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Well, at the risk of having you edit out from under me again, let me quote you just one more time:

(Caveat: the subset of beginner questions [on the topic of Python classes] that are good, albeit offtopic on SO ...

This is an empty set.

It is precisely our standards -- taken in light of our purpose -- that determine the question of quality on Stack Overflow.

If a question is a good question with respect to learning how to use Python, that doesn't mean it's a good question on Stack Overflow -- primarily because Stack Overflow is not meant to teach Python. Which means it is an off-topic question.

Questions that are off-topic do not meet out standards, which makes them, ipso facto, bad questions on Stack Overflow.


Very well then, from the FAQ:

•a specific programming problem, or
•a software algorithm, or
•software tools commonly used by programmers;

and is

•a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development

8
  • I should not have conceded "albeit off-topic" (asks "a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development"). You haven't tried to give a constructive answer. There's no point going in semantic circles, arguing that on-topic questions are off-topic if enough herd mentality wishes them to be, or look down on on-topic beginner questions. I showed how some of these questions are on-topic per the SO FAQ. Sure we have standards, and many on-topic beginner questions meet those, yet get shabbily treated. We must do better on that subset. What are your constructive comments on how?
    – smci
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 1:03
  • @smci: At this point, I think it's best if we just accept the fact that we disagree. Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 1:09
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    We can do better by closing them quickly before some 500k rep cucumber decides to explain OO basics, again, again, for a bit of extra rep. Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 1:12
  • @MarkBenningfield: No, many of them are not offtopic, the FAQ says so, I should not have conceded "albeit offtopic", and hence this is not even an answer to the question. Please either delete it or post an answer to the question. You might like to cite the FAQ if you feel it supports your viewpoint on what's off-topic.
    – smci
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 1:22
  • @MartinJames: uhuh, ok we should further refine to "repetitive yet frequently on-topic beginner questions, not VLQ, not Too Broad, asks a specific question, shows effort", i.e. good question. It is not rephounding to answer those, right? Rephounding refers to doing that on bad or offtopic questions.
    – smci
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 1:25
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    @martin how many 500k rep cucumbers do you know that answer Python questions?
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 10:27
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    @MartijnPieters None - I don't go near Python;) I just assumed the tag had the same salad-dressing as C++ etc. Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 11:53
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    @MartinJames: we have some very active high-rep users in the tag that are also active in the Python chat room, that do a great job of keeping the tag focused and clean. The chat room maintains a list of canonical questions that help close duplicates too, so it works really well.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jan 26, 2018 at 12:30

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