1637
votes

I am extremely upset by President Trump’s executive order on immigration. It is immoral, unconstitutional, and fundamentally un-American.

The community on Stack Overflow is made up of users from all over the world. At least 100,000 posts on Stack Overflow were written by users from the seven countries from which President Trump has banned immigration. These posts have been viewed at least 250,000,000 times. That’s a lot of people sharing their knowledge across borders.

Stack Overflow is successful because of the contributions of everyone, regardless of nationality or religion. If Stack Overflow were not a free, open, and welcoming community that ignored borders, it would never work.

It’s impossible not to see the parallel: the only way to build a successful world today is to allow the contributions of everyone. Carving up the world into us vs. them, building walls, and demonizing religions, nations, and refugees is both morally repugnant and counterproductive, and it goes so much against the spirit of Stack Overflow that as a community we must speak out.


Update on how to move forward (Jan 31, added by hairboat):

If you're totally done with this topic and would like to stick to programming Q&A, that's fine. This post is no longer and you're welcome to go on with your day.

But for those of you who'd like to stay and talk…let's talk about it. We've already covered the merits of this question being on MSO at length, here and elsewhere, and we've debated whether or not this particular policy affects Stack Overflow the website.

What we haven't really touched on are the effects of this policy on the Stack Overflow community and how critical Stack Overflow's global nature is to its success. Our data team dug up stats on how answers often span borders and even time zones.

An open immigration policy is one way to strengthen a peaceful global community. Net neutrality is another way, which is also under fire around the world (and non-existent in many areas). This is the best, smartest, and most organized community of programmers on the Internet. What can we do to protect these and other freedoms? How can Stack Overflow the community and Stack Overflow the company best direct our collective influence?

That's the question we should be answering here.

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    Meta-discussion of this post exceeds the practical limits of comments; please find it in chat (includes archived comments), and on meta: 1, 2, 3
    – Shog9
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 21:39

44 Answers 44

682
votes

My name is Kasra. I run the mobile team here. I am an Iranian refugee turned American citizen, who isn't in extreme danger right now but has higher than ambient levels of anxiety and stress.

I tried posting a link to a post I wrote explaining my feelings, how I think we got here (lack of empathy), and how I think we get out of here (lots of empathy, hugging, listening).

I didn't do a great job of explaining what I wanted to explain. I initially started writing just for myself, then realized I was being given a platform so I could actually effect change.

I'm very sorry I got lost in the in-fighting here. Here, in the comments, in the chatrooms. I was shaking yesterday, so angry and upset.

I haven't completely killed my previous post, it's still on an archive linked on the post. I did however:

Completely rewrite my article to try to reach you, the reader, in a better way.

Please, I beg of you, give it a read. I think we have an easy way out of here, if we just stop arguing about if we should be discussing this stuff at all:

I am keeping the older version of this answer here for posterity's sake, because a lot of comments discuss it. Please feel free to ignore it, click the link above, and just read the 8 minutes of text instead.


Self advertising is bad but I work here and feel that my life is in danger, and can't focus at all on writing our Android apps, so:

I run our Mobile Team at Stack Overflow. I've attended meetings and read e-mails and written specs, but I've been unable to write any code. I just can't think about code. Quoting myself:

I keep forgetting to eat, I set off to figure out if I could make the biggest soup with my 3.4 quart dutch oven or my 4L instant pot yesterday, received a call from my grandma, suddenly it was 9 hours later.

I'm a former Iranian refugee.

My green card holding (permanent resident, legally) grandmother is currently stuck unable to use the $3,000 flight we booked for her March 3rd to late July because we don't know if she leaves if she'll be able to come back. She needs to go to Iran to have her yearly physical and check-ups, but we're just getting her American insurance out of pocket.

If you don't understand why we got here, if you do understand why we got here but it shakes you to your core.

If you are still upset that this is all a result of our rigged two party system.

If you are experiencing conflicting thoughts and feelings without knowing what to do.

If you are too busy about the validity of Stack Overflow, a gender imbalanced, at times hostile professional community, using its platform to discuss these issues.

If you are so lost and have no idea what to do, and your grandparents who helped raise you voted for Trump and you don't understand why they still don't believe you that he hurts real people.

Please read my post. It's just a call for people to listen to themselves and others, and love.

Even if you don't care, and you're just scrolling past, I want you to know:

Every single time a seemingly Iranian username notifies me via an upvote or comment on an AndroidDev question on Stack Overflow, every thing I've done in my life is validated over again.

I click on their profile. Try to figure out if they're like me, over here in America, or back home. When their profiles proudly say they're from a beautiful town I've only seen in photo books of myself as a 4 year old going on a tour of, towns that I can't ever visit again, per these new regulations, I think about everything my grandmother has told me about Shiraz and Isfahan.

Edit:

I still feel odd using this platform to share my voice but it's the best one I have, so I don't feel bad. I am beyond honored that my employer even allows me to speak this candidly, let alone give me a direct way to project my voice.

I just saw the comments on Joel's question above though, and god, quoting myself:

The more you continue the infighting and switching of sides and fighting back and forth and pointing out minor details when someone is trying to say something personal and, you get the point. The more you play the game Surkov wants you to play, the quicker I die. The quick I shut down, stop being human, and turn into one of those Without Sky.

Those of you arguing about morality, about if SO is slanting itself choosing political "sides", about anything: Keep in mind, when you treat this as normal, when you say this is "us against them"...

When you call this regular politics, and say SO shouldn't be about politics, you say you don't care about me. You are avoiding the issue. You are avoiding reality. So that you don't have to be nearly as scared as I am. This affects everyone. Across the globe. Everyone.

Really think about that.

I wrote 2,000 words of emotions down. You didn't read them and attacked my CEO for even giving me a platform to share my opinions. Think about that.

What will the history books say about you? The way we're going, I'll just be a statistic in the deaths section. At least my voice will be saved for all time, in writing, and it won't all be hate speech.

Stop pretending I'm not human. Stop pretending my Grandma isn't human.

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  • 8
    Wanna discuss this post? Join us in chat!.
    – hairboat Staff
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 17:01
287
votes

I'm very uncomfortable with this post. I see three four main issues.

  1. This doesn't belong here. SO is NOT a political platform.
  2. Once you wrote one political post, what is preventing you from writing another one tomorrow? The day after? You just opened the Pandora's box.
  3. What if I wrote the same post? Certainly it would have been deleted. I think you're abusing of your moderator privileges.
  4. This is your personal point of view. This might be mine too (or John Doe's, or whatever), but you cannot associate the whole community with one particular political view.

This doesn't mean I don't agree with the content of your post. It's just not the place to put it. At all.

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  • 70
    It is also re-opened every time it is closed without explanation. - I have asked a similar question, worded as closely as possible to this one to retain a closeness in intent (now linked). It was almost immediately put on hold as off-topic. - I raised all of these issues yesterday, and was told by moderator: Joel is CEO. He can do this if he wants. Comments were summarily deleted and moved to chat. Suggestions in chat, which seemed well reasoned and well intentioned were disregarded by moderators as the moderators 'did not agree' with them.
    – user2654834
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 11:14
  • 12
    5. What about pandora's box of dissenting views and the resulting wars? A well balanced counter post by someone who is a supporter? This is not that playground.
    – Madivad
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 14:30
  • 35
    So, what you're saying is "I am not personally affected by this; why do you make me read things that affect other people and this platform?" Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 15:32
  • 22
    @ken Good job using neutral language to unpolitically voice this. A wholehearted +1 to you.
    – Cullub
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 15:50
  • 30
    @CarrieKendall (1/2) No, I'm saying 1) I don't want to read anything politically related here (me being affected or not), I'm not on facebook/twitter, I came here for code. 2) If you start posting political stuff today, what will become SO tomorrow? Another political platform? Will you post another thing for the next political decision someone made in the world?
    – ken2k
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 16:05
  • 30
    @CarrieKendall 3) Why on earth is someone allowed to post something like that, while on the other hand any other similar post would have been nuked? 4) Don't assume everyone agrees with you. I might agree. Someone else might too. Some people won't. Don't post stuff like this pretending you represent the whole SO community.
    – ken2k
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 16:07
  • 30
    @ken2k meta isn't about coding; it's about the meta issues that SO faces. You might not like it, but this does affect Stack Overflow. If you don't want to engage, then don't, but complaining about your rights as a user of SO like you're owed some kind of exclusive place where we are all blind to bigotry, racism and other discriminatory actions is ridiculous. If you're not affected and don't want to hear about it, then leave the conversation. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 16:13
  • 25
    @CarrieKendall I come here for technical stuff (SO) or to talk about the SO site itself (Meta.SO), not for political views of some CEO. I fail to see a valid reason for this post to exist (see the points I listed above). Let's agree to disagree.
    – ken2k
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 16:21
  • 22
    The protection of human rights shouldn't be a political view. o/ Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 16:22
  • 28
    This isn't about politics. This is about human rights.
    – Brian
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 16:28
  • 63
    "If you're not affected and don't want to hear about it, then leave the conversation." When Joel makes his political stances the official stances of SE (by posting on here instead of his blog or some other medium), we're all affected. We've all spent time building this network into what it is, and the more we participate the more we're associated with it and whatever it stands for. I want it to stand for good technical answers, not Joel's personal crusades (no matter how well-intentioned). On the other hand, this world is full of tragedies - can any of us post a call to action now? Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 17:06
  • 24
    @CarrieKendall Your characterization of this as a human rights issue makes me wonder if you understand what's in this controversial order. No country in the world recognizes an unlimited right for people to immigrate at will. Whose human rights do you think were violated here? You had the people in transit when the order was issued how got stuck in no-man's-land, so I see the issue there. Green card holders were caught up but that seems resolved. For anyone else with a visa, part of getting a visa is knowing it can be revoked any time for any reason. That's true everywhere.
    – Brick
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 20:23
  • 9
    @Brian the idea that human rights is somehow not political is truly perplexing.
    – phoog
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 4:36
  • 15
    Which human rights are being violated? Refugees and asylum seekers still have a hundred other countries they can apply for asylum in. 100 people had their visas questioned.
    – user764357
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 1:04
  • 14
    I totally respect Joel's view and I've smpathy towards all people who are getting effected by this. Even my family and relatives got effected. I am from India; so does that mean I should start writing my political views about my government too? India is going though a challenging face where we've been sacrificing a lot to make it as a developed country. Every political decision cause impact on someone's life. There are some legit ways to oppose govt decision. I am sorry but I can't support this question on meta. Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 6:00
223
votes

Tech companies helped stop SOPA through coordinated messaging to users DIRECTLY through their services.

It's the only industry that has so much leverage for so little cost (free effectively)

Let's put it to use.

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    The message could point out that the website they are visiting could not exist without the contributions of software developers from around the world (skilled migrants, open source contributions etc)
    – RodH257
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 6:41
  • 5
    (As an aside I sort of wonder if that's the best comparison; I always personally felt that the only real reason we even needed coordinated messaging to make us aware of SOPA is because we were all too distracted by Occupy to notice anything else going down at the time. I'm not sure Trump-related issues are flying under the radar in quite the same way or need that kind of additional exposure. We're already bombarded by it at every turn, it doesn't need to be on MSO, too. On the other hand, SOPA/PIPA nearly slipped through the cracks.)
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 6:45
  • 6
    @RodH257 being the internet, for these (post) contributions to be made, these people don't actually have to be in the US. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 11:54
  • 33
    The difference between SOPA/PIPA and this is that SOPA/PIPA would have had a direct and noticeable impact to all users of a Internet services, regardless of who or where they are located. As such, it would have had a direct impact on how the Stack Exchange network had to operate. The issue in this "question" does not affect people who use the Internet nor does it affect the SE network. It may affect Stack Overflow the company by impacting current or future employees. It also may not align with the beliefs of SO staff. Those don't belong here, though, but on the company blog. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 12:07
  • 3
    Another difference between SOPA and this, is that SOPA was a bill, which was to pass through Congress, but this is an executive order. In order for SOPA to pass, a majority of Congress had to vote for it, against constituent's wishes, where an executive order takes just one person (albeit, a very specific person).
    – Dan Lowe
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 1:13
  • 1
    This would be a good answer imho. I'm sure we've got enough devs, eng's and CEOS here to do this again.
    – CptEric
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 9:47
  • 1
    If you want to activley get involved also check out the slack/github pages at medium.com/data-for-democracy. The collective of volunteers around Jonathan Morgan could use some more people from SO.
    – Flo
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 17:25
  • Staging a wide-scale Internet blackout, like was done for SOPA, would have a huge effect. It would need to be coordinated: Facebook, Google, Twitter, Wikipedia, SO, Reddit, et. al. would need to be on board, and if it were well coordinated to all happen together, that would be huge.
    – Dan Jones
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 18:46
154
votes

This answer isn't valid anymore.

When I posted it, this question was in its original form. At the time, it wasn't a question, but more of a rant or a good example of soapboxing. I still think some of the words and phrases used in the original post are very opinionated, but at least. In the edits, valid questions are being posed to the Stack Overflow community:

  • What can we do to protect these and other freedoms?
  • How can Stack Overflow the community and Stack Overflow the company best direct our collective influence?

I think that there are also implied questions about if the company or the community should be doing anything. These questions assume the answer to if the company should do anything is yes, but I would hope that a well-thought out answer expressing an alternative viewpoint would be well received. Although given voting patterns on Meta, I would expect it to be down voted in disagreement.

I still think some of the words and phrases used in the original post are very opinionated, but at least the edits bring up issues that the community can actually discuss and debate about.

I wrote a comment to hairboat on the question:

I wanted to thank you for the edits - I was going to post this in the chat room, but wanted to ping you so you see. I objected to the original post, but the part that you added, especially How can Stack Overflow the community and Stack Overflow the company best direct our collective influence? makes this, IMO, a valid meta question. The answers can range from "do nothing" to whatever ideas people can come up with. Plus, there's the analysis from the data team. I hope that, in the future, staff takes a few minutes to do things like this before making an emotionally charged post.

On Stack Exchange, we have communities of experts in everything from programming to cooking, the sciences and engineering to languages and religions, health and fitness to academic and industry.

I hope that at least a few things come out of this:

  • Everyone has learned that Meta is not appropriate for soapboxing. It's for discussing the community or the site - the people and technology that come together.
  • Every community on the network realizes that, yes - they can organize to do things off the network. We have Meta sites and chat rooms for communities to do community stuff. I hope that, going forward, these communities of experts and enthusiasts in various topics band together to make a difference.

This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion, but I need to say it.

First off, I'm upset by Trump's executive order on immigration. I'm also upset that he has ordered construction of a wall on the US-Mexico border. And that he suspended a planned rate cut for Federal Housing Administration home loans. And that he is taking actions against the Affordable Care Act, especially without concrete proposals to ensure access to healthcare for Americans. And that he is supporting two controversial pipelines. And these are just the things done so far, excluding statements on the campaign trail about closing the Internet, appointments of people who are opposed to net neutrality, and countless other social and technology policies. And even then, it's still excluding other statements about any number of groups of people that are downright crass, ignorant, and offensive.

However, I don't think that Stack Overflow (the site) or any other site on the network should get political. Aside from Politics, Law, and chat rooms where it has been determined to be acceptable. We have people from all over the world of all kinds of races, religions, countries, genders, ages, and so on. All of these people have their own political beliefs and, generally speaking, those political beliefs don't belong on the main network.

I think it's beyond great that Stack Overflow, and the whole SE network, has users from all over the world who are writing good questions and answers, helping each other. The Internet enables it, yet so there are still so many communities full of hate. The whole network does a great job of being a safe, welcoming place for everyone that is willing to be nice.

However, so far, the majority of the things done so far have no impact on Stack Exchange actually functioning. If there were proposed policies in the United States, or even anywhere else in the world, that would put the Stack Exchange network at risk - challenges to information security, privacy, net neutrality, and so on - I would hope and even expect that the users of Stack Exchange sites are made aware of this so they can take appropriate actions in their countries.

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    I really don't want to get political here, but I can't resist. I can understand where you're coming from, in that it may not directly impact Stack Exchange, but nevertheless, it's an issue that many in the community can take to heart. It affects us all. How can Stack Exchange and its community work together to fight this, and what can we do - that's what the discussion is about here, is it not?
    – Zizouz212
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 3:38
  • 98
    @Zizouz212 I don't think that the Stack Exchange community should be working together to fight this because it doesn't impact the Stack Exchange community. If this was about SOPA or PIPA or another action that would have a direct impact on the ability of people to safely and effectively use the network, I can understand the need for members of the community to do something. But only as a Stack Exchange user, how do immigration laws affect me? They don't change who can ask or answer questions on any site on the network. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 3:40
  • 118
    @Zizouz212 That said, if Stack Overflow the company wants to write about their stance and what they as a company are doing, then there should be a blog post on the company blog. If Joel wants to write about his stance and what he is doing as an individual, he has his personal blog. Or if members of the Stack Exchange community have questions or want to talk about this, they can take advantage of some good Q&A sites (like Law or Politics) or our chat rooms. But it doesn't belong here. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 3:43
  • 33
    Does stack overflow not employ anyone from any of these countries? If they do, then it affects stack overflow the company, and the whole stack exchange network
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 3:44
  • 74
    @TinyGiant I'm not sure, but even if it does, this doesn't belong on Meta.SO. It would belong on the company blog, on the company's Twitter feed, etc. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 3:45
  • 30
    I'm sorry you feel that way.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 3:49
  • 135
    @duplode If anyone other than Joel made this post, do you think that it would still be open? It would be highly down voted, closed, and probably even deleted. I agree that this is an interesting discussion, but this is not the place for it. No site - main or meta - on the SE network is a good place for this discussion. It's only made worse by the fact that there's no useful information presented on how this impacts Stack Overflow (the company or the site) or the SE network. It's essentially a blog post, which should be on someone's blog. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 4:32
  • 23
    "If anyone other than Joel made this post, do you think that it would still be open?" -- Certainly not, and rightly so. Would this post fit more naturally in a company blog? In principle, it would. However, Joel has exceptionally chosen to post it here -- perhaps to reach as much of the community as possible, perhaps to give the message more weight by having it at the (Meta) site proper rather than somewhere else. I don't think that is a big deal, as it being here doesn't really affect the regular activites elsewhere in the site.
    – duplode
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 4:56
  • 48
    Thank you. I come to SO to talk about code, not debate politics. It's bad enough that everything Trump is plastered all over the HNQ. At most, this belongs on the general meta, not on SO's.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 4:56
  • 36
    "We have people from all over the world of all kinds of races, religions, countries, genders, ages, and so on." -- exactly. There's something going on in the world that's making things extremely difficult for people from certain countries. Looking after our community, and encouraging this kind of collaboration, means supporting everyone, not turning a blind eye. We can't just say "oh, that's politics" because the president of the US did it. At some point, things stop being about politics and start being fundamental human decency.
    – Cascabel
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 6:08
  • 52
    "it doesn't impact the Stack Exchange community" -- that's incredibly naive. Maybe it doesn't impact most of us, but it does impact some of us. There are plenty of people in the US on visas or green cards from these countries. Some of them work in the software industry. Some of them work a couple desks away from me. I know it's not pleasant, I know we'd love if it would just go away, but it's happening and it matters.
    – Cascabel
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 6:13
  • 33
    That's like as long as it doesn't harm me, it's none of my business.
    – Noah
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 6:14
  • 18
    I'm sort of in half-agreement here. The "question" is certainly not a question. Insofar as it is an announcement, the announcement has little directly to do with SO (or the SE network, or SE Inc.). Were this an announcement of how SE will "take a stand" (or an appeal for ideas thereto) that would be one thing. But as it currently stands it's pretty much soapboxing and doesn't really have a place of SO, meta.SO, meta.SE, or anywhere else on the SE network. (I say this as someone who finds the recent actions of President Trump to be deplorable and incredibly short-sighted.)
    – user2361699
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 11:14
  • 72
    Totally agree with Thomas. Its pretty lame that a CEO of mainly tech/code sites uses his power to push his own political views on those platforms. I'm sitting here in South Africa, wondering why I'm getting the Trump topic consistently shoved down my throat, and then find this.... So even though I agree with Spolsky's points, I don't think it belongs here. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 13:50
  • 61
    @Nzall You seem to be under the wrong impression that I don't think that Joel or Stack Overflow staff should be speaking up. I'm saying that they should go to an appropriate venue. I follow and participate in my local and national politics. Recently, I have been inundated with information from multiple perspectives from my news feeds and Twitter/Facebook streams. When I go to Stack Overflow (or most other sites in the network, except Politics and Law), I would like to get away from politics for a little while and focus on something else. I don't think I'm alone in this, either, based on votes. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 14:27
132
votes

I am extremely upset by the continuous actions of the Saudi Arabian government. It is immoral, unethical, morally repugnant and fundamentally anti-humanitarian.

The use of anti-Jewish, anti-Christian propaganda in school textbooks. The inability of opposition religions to freely operate in the country, and the inability of opposition political ideals to freely operate in the country, both at pain of death. -- [Source: Various US NGO reports amongst others.]

All public gatherings, including peaceful demonstrations, remained prohibited under an order issued by the Ministry of the Interior in 2011. Those who sought to defy the ban faced arrest, prosecution and imprisonment on charges such as “inciting people against the authorities”. In March last year, the government warned that it would arrest and prosecute anyone who publicly criticized Saudi Arabia’s military actions in Yemen; in November last year, the Ministry of Justice was reported to have said it would sue anyone who compared Saudi Arabia’s justice system to that operated by IS. -- [Source: amnesty International]

Most of all, any country that implements the death penalty for the 'non-crime' of apostasy is committing a terrible crime against humanity and is carving up the world into us vs. them, building walls, and demonizing religions, nations, and refugees and is of course, both morally repugnant and counterproductive, and it goes so much against the spirit of Stack Overflow that as a community we must speak out.

7
  • 19
    Daily vote limit reached here, I'm coming back in 10 hours to upvote this.
    – ken2k
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 13:04
  • 1
    @ken2k I've set the timer for you ...
    – rene
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 13:40
  • Not that I disagree with you, but how is this relevant? Saudi Arabia isn't even one of the countries on the ban list. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 19:38
  • 41
    @AsadSaeeduddin It's not. In fact, it's completely irrelevant; that's the whole point. This answer is meant to illustrate the irrelevance of the original post by mirroring it's format but pleading a different cause. The logic being that if this answer is irrelevant (which it clearly is), so is the original post.
    – Ajedi32
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 20:10
  • 7
    Wow. I think this is indeed the strongest/only viewpoint against all this. Except maybe that Saudi Arabia has a lesser impact on the world than USA does, but apart from proportions, this is pretty on point. The whole "it doesn't affect me" viewpoint is incredibly short sighted. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 20:35
  • 2
    Fallacy of relative privation. Also, SO isn't based in Saudi Arabia, it's an American website. Saudi Arabia also doesn't import lots of programmers, so their policies don't affect programmers so much.
    – samgak
    Commented Feb 2, 2017 at 18:47
  • @samgak Fallacy of relative privation ("not as bad as") – dismissing an argument or complaint due to the existence of more important problems in the world, regardless of whether those problems bear relevance to the initial argument.
    – nmit026
    Commented Feb 21, 2017 at 23:57
130
votes

The community on Stack Overflow is made up of users from all over the world. At least 100,000 posts on Stack Overflow were written by users from the seven countries from which President Trump has banned immigration. These posts have been viewed at least 250,000,000 times. That’s a lot of people sharing their knowledge across borders.

How about highlighting these kinds of facts more prominently?
They are worth celebrating, no matter who the President of the United States happens to be.
Highlighting and celebrating those facts are also clearly within scope for Stack Overflow.

Again independent of any external politics, seeing these stats highlighted (like what was done previously) would make me - and probably others too - feel more proud to be part of this community.

8
  • 3
    I think that highlighting is something that is missing. Highlight the user base of the networks as well as individual sites to show diversity. Speaking of individual sites, more can be done to promote relevant questions/answers on individual sites or even sites themselves based on outside events. I think that is totally appropriate to do and can only expand the SE user base. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 16:00
  • 7
    I think this is far more likely to influence the situation in a positive way than a political grandstanding post. By highlighting the facts and not politicizing them directly, it makes a far more compelling case to people who may agree with Trump's policy - it shows evidence and builds a case. Rather then sensationalizing it.
    – enderland
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 14:53
  • 2
    These statistics, both in the question and in the answer, are really beside the point. Trump didn't ban anyone from any country from posting on or reading from SO.
    – Brick
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 20:15
  • @Brick I think that is a large part of the point: that [almost] no matter what political leaders may do, they are not stopping the large amount of cross-border knowledge sharing that we, the community, find very valuable. Leaders (not just in the US) may try to divide people-groups against one another, emphasize the mindset of "us vs. them" and attempt to dehumanize the "other" - but at least on this platform, that's not working. We will continue to help each other across borders as we have done for years, having already come so far that it's worth celebrating the tremendous value in this.
    – WBT
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 21:55
  • 4
    Partly inspired by your suggestion, we've shared some statistics and thoughts in this company blog post.
    – David Robinson Staff
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 22:15
  • 1
    @DavidRobinson Thanks, and thanks for linking that in!
    – WBT
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 22:16
  • 1
    @WBT Where I'm lost on this point is who you think is doing what you claim. You've created a fictitious villain to slay. I don't see how anyone - Trump and advisors included - would complain about sharing programming ideas via internet.
    – Brick
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 23:32
  • @Brick This post isn't about slaying Trump, though it could impede attempts to divide and dehumanize others. It's about responding to a situation that OP and many others find stressful with a community-appropriate positive affirmation of something worth celebrating. With David Robinson's link (he's one of who I think is doing some of what I propose), I could even see this becoming an Accepted answer, if Kasra can take the irony of winning a Populist badge on this question and Joel can take the irony of awarding one. If you want a stronger response, upvote other answers that call for them.
    – WBT
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 4:27
128
votes

As a fellow member of the Stack Overflow and Stack Exchange communities, I would like to voice my opinion.

Let me start off by saying I'm just a normal guy, using this site to help others and myself with their programming problems. I was raised in a traditionally right-leaning family, but this recent order has shaken me and the people around me.

Ever since the campaign trail, I feared something like this would happen, so I started frequenting Stack Overflow. I saw this place as a safe-haven from all the politics, where us members could just help each other. As I started to engage, I became part of the community and felt very welcome.

I whole-heartedly agree that this is a problem that needs attention and I'm truly upset. I have never faced hardship in my life, but my heart goes out to those who face it everyday. But I do not sympathize with the people who look to block those with conflicting political views, as bad as they may seem.

In my honest opinion, I think the site itself, Stack Overflow, and the network, should not act on this. I always thought of Stack Overflow (the site anyways) as a politics-free zone and I would like to keep it that way. Some users have conflicting views and we can't censor them or neglect them. Stack Overflow is made up of its users, and alienating them through politics can get really ugly. By making such a statement, on Meta.SO, you risk misrepresenting the community.

If Joel wants to personally assemble willing others away from the site, I would be happy to join, but please don't do it here. By doing it here, you associate us, the whole community, under one political view. Shoving your views down the community's throat is not the way to go, even if your view is the majority.

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    "By doing it here, you associate us, the whole community, under one political view. Shoving your views down the community's throat is not the way to go, even if your view is the majority." +1 for that.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 7:52
  • 5
    Views tend to be in majority within the same church. And I agree with your general statement, and this point is why SE/SO should be completely free of politics (and by that also inclusive to those who disagree with Spolsky's personal views/agendas).
    – user1693593
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 9:33
  • Yes, yes, yes. Is there a Meta SO post allowed which presents the alternate view—that Trump's actions were legal, constitutional, moral and the responsible thing to do, and that they in fact mirror Obama's own actions? Of course not. Only politics which AGREE with Joel's personal opinions are allowed. This is a disgusting abuse of the site, frankly.
    – Wildcard
    Commented Feb 22, 2017 at 19:12
108
votes

What does this have to do with programming or the SE community? Just because you live in the USA and have certain political views it has become an issue. No other user would have gotten away with posting it.

I don't live in the USA. Many foreign countries have varying restrictions on immigration. Do China, Russia, Brazil, ect have 100% equal treatment for immigration purposes? I doubt it, almost every country has preferential treatment for varying countries.

It's never affected me in the past and isn't affecting me now. I'm looking forward to learning more about programming in a politically neutral environment.

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    "I'm looking forward to learning more about programming in a politically neutral environment." So are those of us who live in the USA. I guess you're saying we need to join you in Canada?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 16:18
  • 30
    @Cody You really twisted that statement the wrong way.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 16:28
  • 20
    Did I? Can you really call it a "politically neutral" climate when people are scared for their lives and livelihoods because of the color of their skin, their religious beliefs, or their birthplace? A "politically neutral" climate is one where everyone is free to coexist and cooperate regardless of politics. When politics interfere with one's ability to do that, neutrality has been lost, @jason, whether you agree with the political motivations that led to the climate or not.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 16:31
  • 54
    +1, this is solely a US immigration issue. Of course it "affects the world", it's immigration. It necessarily involves other countries. But I highly doubt any other country's immigration laws would be allowed to be discussed here. I find it contradictory that Joel speaks of the network as a global resource but also uses it as a soapbox to discuss US policy.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 16:31
  • 16
    @Cody Since this poster was referring to SE being "politically neutral", not to the US, yes. Because no matter what happens with US immigration laws, people aren't scared for their lives on SE, they're scared for their lives in the US. Your twist was taking what this poster said about this web service and implying that it was actually about the United States. That's not what "politically neutral" is referring to here, just like SE is politically neutral wrt any other country regardless of the civil rights state in that country. Neutrality on SE isn't the same as neutrality in the US.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 16:34
  • 2
    @codygray why didn't the USA stop bombing all these countries 8 years ago? Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 17:06
  • 6
    I have no idea. I voted against it every chance I got, and have repeatedly spoken out against it and the rest of our imperialist foreign policy. I saw your first (deleted) comment, where you asked the same question, and I didn't have an answer, nor did I see how it was relevant. Of course, you vastly oversimplify. The US has not been bombing all 7 of these countries, and one transgression does not justify more transgressions.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 17:12
  • This post is about the community. Does it affect the community? Yes. Does it matter where the problem origins? No. I live far more away than you from usa and i do care about my fellow programmer's and the injustices they face.
    – CptEric
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 11:59
  • Do China, Russia, Brazil, ect have 100% equal treatment for immigration purposes? No, and probably no countries do, and neither did pre-Trump US. So ? Don't pretend you don't realize that the immigration issue discussed here (which BTW IMO shouldn't be discussed here) is not some preferential, non-100%-equal treatment for immigration from some countries vs. other ones but a full ban on immigration from specific countries "because those people are too likely to be terrorists compared to people from elsewhere". It's easy to see how describing the latter as if it were the former is sneaky. Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 12:08
  • @SantiBailors So you know for a fact that none of those countries has enacted an immigration ban in recent history? Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 12:11
  • No, why do you ask ? And not being the land of freedoms or something like that, they might well have. What's your point ? Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 12:13
  • My point is I care as much about Russia's immigration policy as I do that of the USA (that is not at all). @SantiBailors Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 12:14
  • 1
    Clearly you are not planning to emigrate to other countries in search of jobs, good for you. You still were very sneaky in your choice of words (except No other user would have gotten away with posting it., which was my first thought as well as soon as I saw the Q). Actually, also except your pointing out that this shouldn't be discussed here because it doesn't affect you; that was not sneaky. Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 12:29
79
votes

I am politically conservative (in the American sense). I won't be expressing my view on this particular policy here, but I think this fact is relevant because it gives me a more sympathetic perspective on the opposing view than most readers here seem to have.

I think this post goes against the spirit of Stack Overflow and Stack Exchange. Stack Exchange is supposed to be a place where people come to share ideas and learn from each other. This post doesn't seek to do that. This post instead starts off by insisting that Trump's policy is "immoral" and "fundamentally un-American." This immediately discourages any discussion or learning about the actual issue at hand, before going on to claim that openness to anyone's contributions is a virtue. It dismisses everyone who doesn't agree with the post's position. It is not respectful to them. It is not nice to them. It attempts to shame them. It denies them of their dignity, in a forum where it's inappropriate for them to even try to defend it or explain their position. And then it's featured so that it's prominent on a site that has nothing to do with political activism. As a conservative, whether I do or do not agree with the policy, I understand that it's not based on any kind of hatred, but rather on a desire to protect American lives from real people who wish us harm. Call it misguided if you think it is, but the derisive tone in this post is part of the problem in politics today, not part of the solution.

SO staff has had to deal with this kind of behavior from users before. In that situation, Shog advocates that it's not okay to continue a discussion in a general chat room about SciFi when it's causing tempers to flare or it actively makes people uncomfortable. Instead, he writes that respect and kindness demand that you take it to a more appropriate venue, and even then, it needs to remain respectful in that venue. I thought Shog's views and instructions in that situation were reasonable, fair, and turned the view that everyone should be heard into actual policy.

But before, they were just users. This is different. This post comes from arguably the most powerful person in the Stack Overflow organization, and if it comes down to it, that person's word is probably going to be law. Really, the only person who can make this right is the person who posted it. This post undermines everything moderators and SO staff have tried to do to make the Stack Exchange network a friendlier place for everyone by going against all the guidelines put in place. After all, if the top of the company doesn't try to follow them, why would the users?

To make this right, I suggest the following 2 very simple actions:

  1. Tone it down. Change the wording so that this is respectful to everyone, those who agree and those who don't. If you're interested in opposing viewpoints, make it encourage them. If not, still make sure that the post doesn't imply that anyone who agrees with the policy is automatically a terrible person.

  2. Move it out of SO's meta. It clearly has nothing to do with moderating SO and so is off-topic. I think the best place for it is the company blog or Joel's personal blog, but the main meta would be a significant improvement regardless.

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    Part of the problem with the classic liberal idea of tolerance is that it implies you have to tolerate everything, including things that should be intolerable. A blanket ban on individuals, based on where they happened to be born, is one of those things that should rightfully be intolerable. In fact, anything that denies the basic dignity of a human being is intolerable. There are many problems with politics today, but a willingness to call out bigotry, racism, and exclusion is not among them. Moreover, a person stating their opinion flatly does not discourage discussion or learning.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 9:34
  • 30
    @CodyGray I am no advocate of tolerance as a virtue. But I am an advocate of kindness as a virtue, in spite of my imperfections at achieving it. Joel's post is neither. And Joel's post does not "flatly" state an opinion. It actively attacks the character of anyone holding a particular opinion. Also, "exclusion" pretty much is intolerance, the thing you're saying doesn't really work as a factor on a moral scale. As for bigotry and racism... I did end up including a small response to that already. See above.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 9:38
  • 20
    @CodyGray Let me turn the tables. What would you say if I posted something about abortion being murder? Is that appropriate in this venue?
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 9:44
  • 32
    whether I do or do not agree with the policy, I understand that it's not based on any kind of hatred, but rather on a desire to protect American lives from real people who wish us harm. given the background of those who are said to have authored the executive order, and who pushed for Green Card holders (who have been thoroughly vetted and have their lives, livelihood & loved ones in the country) to be included in it even though they initially weren't, I don't think I can agree. Even if you take away the hyperbole present everywhere.
    – Pekka
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 9:45
  • 26
    But I see where you're coming from, we shouldn't be arguing things like this on Meta SO in the first place. It's unlikely to change any minds, or do anything else to improve the situation, if we do. (Happy to be proven otherwise here.) I agree it belongs on the blog.
    – Pekka
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 9:49
  • 25
    In an atmosphere like this, I'm surprised there's even one post where the author clearly states that they're conservative.I applaud your level-headed appeal to the site's basic rule, "Be Nice." Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 11:40
  • 7
    Food for thought: Some of the worst atrocities in history were committed with the best of intentions. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 13:11
  • 15
    @KevinLyda We don't have "general, shared" principles on this issue. Certainly, Joel's post here isn't based on any. Many Americans feel it is more important to protect American lives than it is to take in people from the most volatile portion of the world right now. Others feel it's more important to help them out of that area right now. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. All I ask for is that given the fact this is based on weighing different but legitimate concerns, that SO take a stand on a view that's been central to it's success: respect for everyone.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 14:39
  • 6
    @jpmc26 - Yes footnote 1 states that it is since 9/11. AFAIK none of the hijackers were from countries subject to the ban though. Not a single American was killed on U.S. soil by citizens from any of those countries between 1975 and 2015 if serious about protecting American lives from harm better gun control and not repealing Obamacare would doubtless be more effective. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 14:52
  • 15
    @MartinSmith I'm not here to debate policies, so please don't try to. As my answer says, this is not an appropriate venue to respond to those sorts of claims. The only point that I am making is that the motives behind this policy are not so unreasonable that respect is unwarranted.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 14:55
  • 10
    @duplode There are times when a careful reading and interpretation can be reasonably expected from your audience. Discussing a politically charged issue in a public venue is not one of those times. Joel's tone is clearly one of anger, and there is no clear indication that he is attempting to reach out to those who disagree with his position. He opens and closes with emotionally charged moral absolutes. Any reasonable dissenter is going to feel antagonized, perhaps even some who are undecided. Some of that comes from the overall political climate, but that isn't something that can be ignored.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 15:28
  • 14
    Well said I'm here for the programming I thought SE was above this Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 16:04
  • 5
    @duplode In a strict sense, you may be right. I'd have to think on it more. On the other hand, SO forbids this kind of language from normal users because it wishes to remain a place where people can discuss their views safely. Joel makes a huge point about openness and then includes language that no other user would be allowed to post because it discourages openness. That's why I appeal to the Be Nice policy and prior discussions by SO staff about these issues. SO already has a stance against this kind of thing. SO certainly seems to think this kind of post is disrespectful.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 16:26
  • 8
    @duplode Re: not supporting the view = terrible person. I think an important thing to keep in mind, though, is that like it or not, the reality is that in the US decent folks who don't vocally disagree with Trump have been being explicitly painted as terrible people since the start of the campaigns. The Dem campaign strategy generally follows a divide-and-conquer tactic, it's just always been like that, and when it works it works well. This time it didn't but it left us split as a nation. But we are sensitive to that right now. 1/2
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 16:57
  • 9
    2/2 So you have to keep in mind that even if Joel doesn't explicitly imply you're bad if you disagree, that is the environment we are in right now, and the feeling is implicit. That said, the first sentence does carry the unspoken implication that the opposing view is necessarily immoral and un-American. Also keep in mind this comes from the CEO of the site were all using here, which for many carries more weight than a random user. Hope that all made sense being brief on phone.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 16:58
68
votes

Some ideas where Stack Overflow could have some influence:

  • Figure out a way to solve the hard problem of how do people have constructive, respectful political dialog online that doesn't turn into personal attacks. Seems adjacent to Q&A with lots of community building aspects. See also Neutral Politics
  • Advertising/Campaigns to support ACLU and other resistance groups (not excluding conservative organizations, such as Evan McMullin's Stand Up Republic)
  • Provide guidance/areas where techies can contribute their skills to resisting Trump/Bannon, helping their colleagues internationally, etc.
  • Pressure large multinational corporations like Google to more forcefully do what they can
  • Organize an international developer strike/walk out on one day.
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    You honestly think people want emotion-free, neutral politics? The OP can't even refrain from it in his post. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 4:02
  • 13
    I, too, long for a more rational debate in politics. Seeing the posts/comments here it seems that the ratio of rational contributions is not significantly higher here than anywhere else. Political participation seems mostly motivated by emotional based self-interest. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 11:58
  • @katastic I could see benefit to moderated political debate where there's a wiki-style way to edit multiple, competing, fact-based positions on various issues. At the very least it would serve to seed Google with guidance on issues. It won't be emotion free, and it would need a way to have more lengthy discussion about the specific issue. Whether people want it or not, the general political discourse has gone the wrong way. Gotta be a way to change the incentives away from the Twitter "she who says the most outrageous thing gets most RTs" model
    – Doug T.
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 16:00
  • 4
    "Organize an international developer strike/walk out on one day." - I've been thinking about this. If everyone in Tech organized a big strike, it could be powerful. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 17:51
  • 5
    @TimothyKanski That presumes that everyone in tech has the exact same beliefs.
    – user764357
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 20:23
  • 2
    @LegoStormtroopr lol no one will even care in 2 days Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 20:53
  • 3
    @LegoStormtroopr When people say "everyone" in hypothetical statements, they aren't usually being literal. Like, when you said "exactly" should I presume that you mean people with even slight differences in beliefs could not organize a strike together? Careful not to miss the forest for them trees. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 21:33
  • 3
    @TimothyKanski What I'm saying is that not all developers are against Trump. Approximately 45% of American voters voted for Trump, so upwards of 45% of developers may have voted the same. Also, not every developer is from the US and may have their own local political opinions on migration.
    – user764357
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 21:46
  • 2
    @Lego I fail to see how misstating the fact that 45% of American voters who voted has any bearing on how many American developers voted for trump. I haven't seen any evidence that suggests there is any way to know how many American developers voted for trump.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 23:30
  • 1
    @TinyGiant Which fact did I misstate? 45% of voters voted for Trump? The fact that up to 45% of developers could have voted in line with the national split?
    – user764357
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 23:37
  • 3
    A great number of voters did not vote at all. Hence "45% of American voters who voted". And there is no evidence to suggest that any specific percentage of developers voting for trump is any more likely than any other percentage. Hence you're making a baseless claim with no evidence.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 23:41
64
votes

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

That includes here, at Stack Overflow.

So what does taking a stand look like?

Here, perhaps there will not be much change as Stack Overflow itself is already an open and welcoming community focused on content and not user attributes.

From my point of view we of similar belief do have the availability to enact change elsewhere though. There is only one reprieve from the recent unconstitutional acts, and the unfortunate truth is that it is a slow process.

We must commit to pressing for a lawsuit against the unconstitutional executive orders. These acts damage our community here, and challenge our moral integrity.

We must respond to this challenge. State governors or entities who can represent damages have the right to sue the President for these acts. It is up to us to convince them to do so. This is done very simply by taking only 2 minutes out of your day to contact your local representative, and calmly but persistently (daily) explaining how the specific executive order is damaging.

Luckily, there was already a lawsuit from an individual citing damages against the recent immigration ban. Bringing a lawsuit against an unconstitutional executive order is the most effective path towards making the situation right, and we are morally obligated to do so.

Each executive order has a number, here is the list of recent ones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_federal_executive_orders_13765_and_above

Here is where you can find your local representative's phone number: http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/

Or if you would like to look by name or region, here is a list of all of them: http://www.house.gov/representatives/

You are guaranteed to speak with a real person representing the office of the representative you call by using the numbers from those lists.

enter image description here

7
  • 8
    And the court in Brooklyn has issued a stay against the immediate expulsion of refugees that are being detained at airports, etc., at least. The order hasn't been published yet so I don't know exactly what its scope will be.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 3:01
  • This should be the accepted answer IMO. This presents an applicable solution to the problem Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 19:12
  • 6
    Many courts have issued stays. Unfortunately, the Administration is ordering border patrol, TSA, custom officials, etc. to ignore the court rulings. I think it's going to have to go before the Supreme Court at some point, and we'll just have to hope that body puts country before party better than the American voter did. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 14:36
  • 2
    I just hope it comes sooner than later... This kind of thing can't be left to fester for long... Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 15:39
  • @ChrisPratt I've seen this claim that the administration is ignoring court rulings, but I've seen no evidence. The court said they cannot expel people who where in transit already when the order was issued, in my understanding, and I don't see anywhere that they have done that since the order was put in place. AFAIK, there is no order anywhere that says that cannot ban people who would have started travel after the order went into effect. If that's not true, I'd sincerely like to see a reference.
    – Brick
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 20:30
  • 1
    Depends on what court you're talking about, I guess. Some may have given more limited rulings, but but several federal courts have ruled that the executive order is illegal on its face (as it very much is). Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 20:34
  • @ChrisPratt So far that seems like fake news. Definitely open to a real reference though. For example, this article claims the Boston ruling to be the "most expansive in the nation" but that only applies to people who have actually arrived in the US. bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/01/29/… The order applies primarily to people who are still abroad.
    – Brick
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 21:19
61
votes

To give people the chance to vote against taking a political stance:

No, Stack Overflow is not a political soapbox. Any personal point of view from its owners, from its shareholders, or -- indeed -- from users and members of the community at large, is just that: personal.

If you want to express the views of the CEOs of Stack Exchange: go ahead and use your blog for that. But keep Stack Overflow and Stack Overflow Meta about "detailed answers to every question about programming [...] This site is all about getting answers. It's not a discussion forum. There's no chit-chat." (from the [tour])

I do not comment, answer, upvote or downvote on the basis of someone's political views.

And I thank you for not downvoting my posts on the main site based on the same. (Yes, I was expecting that.)

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    Meta is about the community, what the community wants to be, the challenges we face, and the solutions to those things. It has never been for programming questions.
    – Nick Craver Mod
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 2:19
  • 70
    @NickCraver: but Meta is to discuss Stack Overflow, not Meta.WorldProblemsAndPoliticalViews.se.
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 2:21
  • 15
    I respectfully disagree. Exceptionally, I'll welcome a message to permeate a medium I didn't expect it to appear in (or sign up for). This event is exceptional. The occurrence of response is appropriately exceptional.
    – FLGMwt
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 2:21
  • 12
    @RadLexus: And yet, SO was used as a soap box due to SOPA. So it is not without precedent. Extraordinary actions by politicians sometimes demand extraordinary responses. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 2:23
  • 57
    @Rad if you think this doesn't affect the Stack Overflow community (and really: every international community)...we have a very different view of the world. You cannot have a healthy community if people do not feel welcome. The happenings outside Stack Overflow are impacting the world and us right now in profound(ly negative) ways. This matters.
    – Nick Craver Mod
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 2:24
  • 20
    Personal opinion is no longer personal when it affects others. There is a moral obligation to act, and we must do so as a community to stand against what we as rational people know is wrong. This isn't political. This is about creating a better inclusive world.
    – bjb568
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 2:25
  • 4
    @bjb568: as I have received lots of programming help from SO, I feel I have a moral obligation to help others. I do so through this same medium, regardless of the political stance of whom I help. I -- and you -- may have helped a Trump voter. Would you have not done so if you knew?
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 2:30
  • 1
    I'm curious to know what "vote for the opposite view" means.. are you suggesting SO should ban users from these countries? Thankfully, with people like Joel in charge, that won't happen. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 2:37
  • 2
    @RadLexus "I feel I have a moral obligation to help others." Then you should not be trying to shut down this conversation. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 2:37
  • 1
    @approxiblue: but I do help others (with their programming questions).
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 2:41
  • 5
    @FLGMwt: "... This event is exceptional." In the wake of a few other (mostly tragic) events with a potential worldwide impact, others have claimed that event was also exceptional, and merited attention, acknowledgement, and/or action from the SO community. Those proposals were generally shot down.
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 2:47
  • 6
    @RadLexus Sorry for the knee-jerk response. Rather than deleting my reply, I'll add context. In my opinion, this event warrants response in because it is 1 Timely. Humans are affected by this right now MIT students go on vacation and can't get back. Response should be timely 2 Impactful. When the global representative of a superpower makes a statement about roughly a fifth of the worlds population (let's be honest, this is about Muslims), it needs to be known that people are not okay about this 3 Fixable. This flies enough in the face of law that people can react. stay, etc
    – FLGMwt
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 2:51
  • 3
    @RadLexus nobody is implying that it's not a bit deal, and I know you aren't either ;). The difference here, as well as with the supreme court ruling on gay marriage, is the message that SO is a community for ALL people, not just a subset. If you have a thoughtful answer to share, you will be accepted on SO regardless of race, religion, geography, political views, etc. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 3:23
  • 4
    @DerekHunziker: true. Note that there is a definite consensus that religious content may get edited out of q & a's (I can probably find the meta posts discussing that); and, so I imagine, political messages suffer the same fate. So I won't be aware of a posters' view on race, religion (etc.) -- and I don't need to, to answer a technical question. Nor do I want to. Are all programmers liberals? Did every American member on SO vote against Trump? I don't need to know.
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 3:32
  • 7
    @NickCraver Your comments here are very hypocritical. If anyone else had posted this question you absolutely would not be trying to make a tenuous case for relevance - in fact, had you come across it, you would have closed and deleted it in an instant. Let's not insult people by pretending otherwise.
    – Ant P
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 13:00
54
votes

This should have been posted as a blog post, not as a question on MSO.

Not so much about the OP, but I think this post is starting to show a side of SO that doesn't go down too well with me.

The post (understandably, due to it's nature) has been closed multiple times by the community and re-opened at least 8 times at the time of writing purely on the merit of a moderator - not by the community. On that basis it is very much being forced onto us.

I'm not for one minute belittling the subject, nor am I trying to take anything away from those that are directly affected by this - those people have my sincere sympathies and hopes that this whole thing gets resolved swiftly.

This should have been posted as a blog post, not as a question on MSO.

Is in an important topic? Yes, of course - but it's not the right platform. This isn't about Stack Overflow, or the ability of this community to continue to collaborate and share knowledge online. It's about American Politics, which has nothing to do programming.

I don't come on here to discuss politics, I come on here to help people solve programming problems - but if the CEO wants to use it as his personal ranting platform, then quite frankly I don't need to be subject to it.

Bye SO, was nice knowing you all.

0
47
votes

What's this post actually going to change?

There's no call to action. There's no "What can Stack Overflow as a community do?". It's almost as if half the post is missing. Joel Spolsky says stuff and stops. What does he actually want the community to do other than reading it?

Don't use Stack Overflow as a way of advertising personal ramblings.

If you're not going to ask us to do something, don't waste the community's time. I'm pretty sure most Stack Overflow users are upset by Donald Trump's decision. Having it repeated is just a waste of time.

Calculating how much time this post has wasted

Hemingway App estimates that this post takes 43 seconds to read. Adding two seconds for clicking and going back, that adds up to 45 seconds. This post has 31,000 views. Assuming one-fourth of the people who viewed it also read the entire thing, 31,000 * ¼ * 45 = 348750 seconds or 4 days of developer time. If one Stack Overflow question takes 10 minutes to answer, this time could've been used to make 581.25 answers. Exactly what has this time changed? Nothing. This post has done nothing for humanity but waste time.

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  • 23
    "There's no call to action." Right, that's because we haven't come up with the appropriate course of action yet. If you have an idea, please share it. That would have been a more constructive thing to post here, as an answer. Also, I don't think awareness is a waste of time.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 16:11
  • 6
    @CodyGray It doesn't ask for what we should do either. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 16:25
  • 11
    So you decided to complain about it? Following your logic, do you really think that your complaints are going to change anything?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 16:28
  • Totally agree with you, thanks for those who took time from your busy scheduled ant-like life to delete my post, otherwise I feel impulsed to waste another 20 minutes on it. Please continue with your insignificant life. I will disappear into the vast infinite universe that I can do little to change. But don't get too happy, because I am speaking on your behave too! Arrgh, how to waste another 5 minutes ...
    – TelKitty
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 4:16
  • 9
    What, because people in the US are unaware of our President's actions? The only "awareness" this post gives me is awareness of a certain person's opinions. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 16:26
  • Up vote, share and and spread the word. That's the call to action.
    – Noah
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 20:00
  • 5
    @CodyGray How exactly are 'we' ever going to come up with a course of action? What's the process? And what's the point? What difference is a technical website, or rather the subset of the membership that agrees with the proposed action, ever going to make? It's just woolly thinking in all respects. For example, if it's unconstitutional, the Supreme Court will fix it. Not anything that can be done here. What's 'unconstitutional' here is the abuse of the stated purpose of the site, and, worse, co-opting the entire membership into something they didn't sign up for.
    – user207421
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 2:53
  • 2
    @EJP Surely you've heard of community activism? One of the ways that unjust things happen in a representative government is because good people stay silent and let them happen. Or because they simply don't know that they are happening. "What difference am I going to make?" is the kind of thinking that never accomplishes anything. The "process" is, we have a discussion on Meta, like literally everything else that happens on this site. Technical websites have made differences before, but more importantly, its members make a difference, by standing up and saying no. Like all change ever.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 9:07
44
votes

Due to the recent, rather large edit to the 'question' I've decided to notify you that this answer is in respone to revision 6.

Disclaimer: This "question" & most of the "answers" are left. The position that I will argue for in this "answer" will be right. Just saying, if you're one of those "SJW" or get "#triggered" easily, you might not want to read this, y'know, to keep your soapbubble intact.


To keep this clean I have divided this "answer" in several pieces.

1.) Subtleties

2.) Your tone

3.) Do as we say, not as we do

4.) The actual issue

5.) Another point


Subtleties

First of all, I do not see any reason why you'd post something like that on MSO. It's really not suited for the meta-site of a coding-Q&A-platform, and I'd assume - as the CEO of the company running all of these sites - you'd know that.

Yet, despite having a well-visited blog, you chose not to post it on said blog, but here, of all places. Why? Because it's getting more attention that way? It's just causing bad blood, stress, and a truly unhealthy debate.

Speaking of bad blood...


Your tone

I must say, I am quite intrigued by your behaviour. Before I move on, here's a quote which fits the tone of your "question" quite well.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes!

I hope everyone knows that quote, and - sadly - it bears truth. I do know why you're using language that strong, and why you utilize absolutes that frequently. It's simply because you want to enforce your opinion of Trump's executive order on immigration being horrible.

But - and that's a very simple and logical psychological phenomen - if you try to enforce something onto someone, you'll raise & find resistance, simply because most people - including me - really don't like people shoving their opinions onto them.

Just in case I haven't made this clear enough yet, I do know that you have good intentions, but .. not like this, especially due to the excessive amount of actual rude language used. Why would you call someone stupid, just for having a different opinion then you? You plead for tolerance towards other cultures, yet you show no sign of tolerance towards opinions that do not go hand-in-hand with yours.

That's despicable.


Do as we say, not as we do

I've always liked the way cleaning SO worked. You flag something, it goes into a queue, the community decides what happens with the flagged post and so on. Pretty decent workflow.

What a shame that this workflow isn't in place as soon as the CEO posts a question that completely fullfills most of the negative criteria in the rules section. The community has reached a consensus, both in this meta-thread as well as this chatroom.

Yet the question, despite having attracted over 80 close votes by now, still remains open, mostly due to being reopened within 20 minutes, sometimes by SE employees.

Steamrolling the rules you set up yourself... Lovely. I hope you realise that this thread could very well be used as reference in the future, justifying threads that clearly are off-topic, as in "If he can do it, why shouldn't I?", so, basically, you just opened "The box of Pandora", but who cares, you're the CEO, right?


The actual issue

Why is everyone going nuts right now? Oh, yeah, right, because Trump is going to close all the borders, not going to let anyone in, and also he's going to deport everyone who isn't white!

Yeah, right...

Some facts. If you've managed to read this far, you should easily be able to dig through some facts :)

  • the whole "stopped immigration from 7 countries" is limited to 90 days, simply to give the authorities time to implement better security mechanisms

  • it's very well possible that terrorists disguise themselves as refugees in order to access the country

  • the executive order has a pretty important clause inside of it, stating that it does not apply to persons who have a visa or a green card (Note: This is no longer the case, as stated by Magisch. Source,)

If you're willing to ditch your pink glasses for a second (or more, depending on how fast you are) you will easily find those informations. So, please, stop this fearmongering. It's gotten old, and, to be frank, quite boring.

Concluding one can say that this order actually makes sense. If a stranger comes up to you, and wants to enter your house, you might want to check who he is beforehand. If that stranger then insists on his "right of trust" (because everyone deserves trust from the get-go, you don't have to earn that anymore according to some people...) you may want to think about what that person's intentions are.

If you have any specific questions regarding this executive order that are not answered here, feel free to comment & ask, and I will do my best to answer while providing sources.


Another point

This segment doesn't directly reply to the "question", but to the "answer" that Kasra Rahjerdi posted.

Your answer is full of accusations.

When you call this regular politics, and say SO shouldn't be about politics, you say you don't care about me.

No, I do not. What makes you say that? Reconsider, please.

I wrote 2,000 words of emotions down. You didn't read them and attacked my CEO for even giving me a platform to share my opinions. Think about that.

Oh, I did read every single one of your words. I read them, and attacked your CEO for breaking the rules set up by him. He could have easily given you a platform using his blog.

At least my voice will be saved for all time, in writing, and it won't all be hate speech.

Yes, surely, "it won't all be hate speech", yet a lot of your answer is full of wild accusations, and that really disgusts me.

Stop pretending I'm not human. Stop pretending my Grandma isn't human. Stop pretending every single complicit citizen in 1939 Germany hiding their eyes and hoping their families would be OK weren't real humans.

Ayyy, he used the nazi card. Congrats. Everyone not willing to agree with you is no different then the german people around 1939. Good analogy, 10/10. Don't get me wrong, I understand that right now all you're able to feel is fear, but that doesn't give you the right to compare your situation to the one the jews had to go through. Don't you ever dare say that again. That was truly disrespectful.


Thanks for reading, and have a nice day.

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  • 12
    I don't think that you, or I, or anyone else has the right to mock Kasra if they're not going through the same thing. You also missed some of the crap that was chucked at him in (now-deleted) comments on his answer. People were being disrespectful towards him.
    – HDE 226868
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 14:53
  • 14
    @HDE226868 That does - in no way - allow him to compare the situation that he is in right now to the one that the jews were in in 1939. I don't know what was in the - now deleted - comments though. Still, he has no right to use that analogy.
    – Seth
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 14:58
  • 2
    @HDE226868 What do anyones comments have to do with this answer?
    – Penguin9
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 15:00
  • 3
    I was pointing out that playing the blame game isn't effective when it wasn't one-sided, @RaisingAgent. Seth said Kasra was being disrespectful while ignoring the other side - not necessarily Seth's fault, as he missed the comments. But I really don't think that, given some of the responses Kasra has gotten, the edit was wholly unjustified.
    – HDE 226868
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 15:03
  • 8
    "Yet the question, despite having attracted over 80 close votes by now, still remains open" - I count 69 reopen votes too. I'd say the community hasn't "reached a consensus". Stop putting your opinions in my head.
    – NewGuy
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 15:05
  • 2
    @Seth On saturday, a DHS (Department of Homeland Security) spokesperson clarified the ban does apply to green card holders: reuters.com/article/…
    – Magisch
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 15:07
  • 2
    @NewGuy I recall linking to two separate sources whilst making that claim. I'd suggest you read through them?
    – Seth
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 15:07
  • 8
    Wow, this is one of the most hopelessly misguided things I've ever read. 10/10 Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 15:21
  • 3
    Your really going to have to get a lot more people to give feedback on that post suggesting it should be closed before I can believe that is what the community really wants. The votes there compared to here are very small, and the speed the community reopens vs closes suggest the result is skewed because those who take issue with the question are more-likely to contribute there. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 15:29
  • 1
    I think the actual issue is a huge issue, but I do agree that we best try to keep it as factual as possible and don't start off with accusations and godwins.
    – GolezTrol
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 16:01
  • 6
    Some facts: There have been no fatal attacks from refugees from any of the 7 countries on the list. See cnn.com/2017/01/30/politics/… The fact you and many people are afraid of an infinitesimal risk (you have a much greater chance of being hit by a car or shot by a gun; where's the 90 day ban on driving or gun usage?) does not mean it is reasonable. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 16:38
  • 1
    To act as if Trump is "right" in any sense of the word is a little ridiculous (unless you're talking about the "alt-right"
    – apaul
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 12:03
  • 2
    The US is a pretty safe place in regards to "foreign terrorism" most of our terrorists are homegrown. If any fear mongering is going on it's thanks to your president.
    – apaul
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 12:37
  • 4
    @apaul34208 My dude? Fearmongering? That's what the left has been doing the whole time! "Trump is going to deport all who aren't white", "My daughter's just been threatened with a knife by someone after trump won, saying that she wont be here much longer anyway" and so on. Fearmongering is what the left did & does, and it's disgusting. And apparently he is actually fulfilling his promises / working on doing so, and in this case, yes, it is what people want, it is what I want as well, simply to finally show the left that they're not allmighty.
    – Seth
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 12:41
  • 3
    Woohoo meaningful conversation achieved: chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/134478/… see there, the system works!
    – apaul
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 14:11
41
votes

My feelings are that if SE wants to have a corporate position on Mr. Trump's actions, it is of course allowed to, and to share this publicly as many companies have been doing the last few days.

But that would be better through a blog post, or even a special change to the website the way some sites add small items to demonstrate support for LGBT rights, or their Christian roots, etc. Then it's clearly a corporate thing.

Writing it as a post which is then forcibly kept open is inciting argument and disharmony even between those who are on the same side about the political issues, let alone those who don't agree. The post in question is also pretty subjective. Joel isn't a constitutional lawyer to label this unconstitutional; he isn't a high priest to label it immoral. And since the policies being carried out are exactly what Trump promised in his campaign it seems that sadly maybe it is American, for the current value of 'American'.

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  • 3
    .. while I agree with the points you made in your post, I think Joel himself knows this post doesn't belong here, but anyway he posted it here to reach more people - (I don't think in blog it could be viewed by 45K people in one day).
    – hatef
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 17:11
  • @Hatef is it Joel who keeps re-opening it, staff, or user-moderators?
    – Mr. Boy
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 17:13
  • 3
    @Mr.Boy click "edited" on the post to see who is closing/reopening.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 17:28
39
votes

As an Iranian, I've always loved to visit USA. I've always been looking at the New York City picture on my wall, hoping one day i could visit such great city. But from the moment Trump entered into the White house, I started to feel bad about that picture and every dream I had about it.

I know what Trump thinks is not even close to definition of an American guy. But he is corrupting everything we have heard about. a Free country is not what Trump is making. America is getting closer to look like a prison or a restricted area.

But he can't stop us to share our knowledge, he never can change my feelings when I see another developer like me, no matter from what nation he/she is.

I will continue using this site to learn new things and share my knowledge. I will continue feeling proud about being a Persian and will keep feeling good about American people as human beings cuz no matter where we are from...

We are all the same.

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  • 9
    Thank you. For the life of me, I can't understand why many of my fellow Americans can not see that it's exactly because of actions like Trump has taken that so many in the Middle East dislike or downright hate America in the first place. Love begets love and hate begets hate. It's nice to hear that not everyone in the Middle East hates us, but I honestly couldn't blame you if you did. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 14:40
  • 3
    "But he can't stop us to share our knowledge, he never can change my feelings when I see another developer like me, no matter from what nation he/she is. I will continue using this site to learn new things and share my knowledge." - I agree, and this clearly shows that a whole thing doesn't affect StackOverflow community at all. OP is just using this site as a platform for influencing American politics.
    – user11153
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 14:46
37
votes

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—
and there was no one left to speak for me.

I'm writing this from one of the last remaining mostly intact suburb of Aleppo, Syria. For the past four years, there has been gunfire in the streets. There have been bombs - dumb, unfeeling bombs - rained from the sky. There have been government forces, and resistance forces, and the forces of Da'esh, and the Kurdish resistance forces.

I hear you can recognise a Ferrari by the sound of its exhaust — I, meanwhile, recognise an AK-47 by the sound of its shot. I'm told you know how to budget so you have some money to save at the end of the month — I do this too, though not so much with paper notes and metal coins as with clean water. I recall how your paramedic can relocate a dislocated shoulder — we pray for paramedics while we do it ourselves.

I've scraped, and I've begged, stolen, bartered, and risked my life over those four years to scrape together enough to get out. If I'd been just a week faster, I could have paid for a flight to the US, left this place with my family, and been safe.

Today, my daughter is lying in the street. Dead.

I am the person this ban is hurting. Not Da'esh, certainly - if they want in to the US, they'll get in, though for now they're mostly content destroying their own soil. But me? Do I have a hope of safety?

Hope is a thing of the past.


The above is a story that I found elsewhere on the Internet (and have permission to republish). It's not about me, and it may not even be a true story - but it strikes several chords.

Me? I'm a healthy, young, well-off, straight, white, cisgender male. I hold full British citizenship. I couldn't be more privileged if I tried, and the political climate in the US is unlikely to affect me.

But Niemöller's poem, when I saw it, made me stop. No, I don't usually get involved in politics, or protests, or anything of the kind. But then, when was the last time my planet was threatened with even more destruction than it's already undergoing? There's a line to be drawn, and I've drawn it here. Maybe the Socialists are the Syrians, and maybe the Trade Unionists are the people in poor health in the US. And perhaps the Jews are all the women needing safe abortions in the world. Sure, I could let it happen, not speak out for those affected — but when the administration comes for my net neutrality, or for my planet...

Who speaks for me?

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  • 9
    Net neutrality is up in two weeks on a Saturday night
    – random
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 23:28
  • Poem wiki: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...
    – Cullub
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 15:55
  • This is disgusting. Comparing the atrocities the Jews faced with the fight to kill unborn babies. Truly reprehensible.
    – boson
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 19:11
  • 4
    @boson I wondered if someone might take it that way... No, I'm not comparing them - the two things are different orders of magnitude. I'm saying you could replace the one with the other to come up with a version of the poem that applies to the current situation.
    – ArtOfCode
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 19:43
  • 4
    I strongly suspect Joel did not speak up when they came for the Jews. I can't see any sign of him "Taking a stand" against the ban on Israelis being allowed entry by dozens of countries. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 10:06
  • 1
    Then they came for the H1B visas and I had to speak out because I'm having no part of paying developers a fair salary... Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 23:08
  • 3
    There are also the LGBTs, feminists, secularists who will find their positions challenged by muslims who care equally if not more strongly for their own religious positions that are far from benign.
    – prusswan
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 5:23
  • 4
    @AndrewGrimm He did serve in Israel Defense Forces, does that count as taking a stand?
    – user6655984
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 5:39
  • @AndrewGrimm He started a kibbutz in Hanaton. Pretty sure he cares about the jews. What did you do when they came for the jews? (: Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 10:01
34
votes

After reading your post several times, I'm confused about what it actually means for the members of the SO site (if anything).

The question is not really a question. It is a statement.

It is tagged as "discussion", but we are not allowed to discuss it - at least not using comments.

So I don't really understand what to make of it.

When a CEO gives a statement in the company where I work, the statement is considered "law", e.g. something all in the company must follow or a description of a new direction for the company.

So now I'm wondering if your statement marks a new policy at SO.

Has SO changed to be a site with political interest?

Are all members - by being members - silently supporting some SO political point-of-view?

Can the political point-of-view of SO be read somewhere (besides here)?

In general - please clarify the purpose and consequences of your question/statement.

5
  • 2
    As an attempt to honestly answer your questions, yes, I believe that what Joel says here is the official policy of Stack Overflow, the company. There have been internal discussions about this with the employees. The difference is, you and I are not employees of SO. We don't work there. We are volunteer contributors to a website run by that company. As such, even if this is the company's official policy, that doesn't bind us in any way. The "discussion" in comments was getting out of hand (as comments tend to do), so it was requested you post answers instead. Discussion is still allowed.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 16:10
  • "The question is not really a question. It is a statement." I read it as an appeal ("we must speak out"), not like a statement. The question version would be "shouldn't we speak out?". Also please note that we aren't employees of SO but rather users, so not very surprisingly it hardly affects us. If you ask me it was an emotional outbreak and an appeal. So if you just don't follow it, nothing will change most probably. Will SO become political - I doubt it strongly. I can identify with the requested clarification though. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 16:13
  • So in other words, closed as "unclear what you're asking"
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 16:32
  • @TylerH - Well... yes, it is unclear to me what to make of it. However, when I come across an unclear post, I seldom jump directly to a close vote. In most case I instead leave a comment asking for clarification and in most cases OP adds the relevant information. Not sure it will happen this time, though :-)
    – 4386427
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 18:07
32
votes

If you don't want others to abuse their power set an example by not abusing yours.

3
  • What, exactly, is the CEO of this website abusing? Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 10:04
  • 2
    @Qix there was an incredibly divisive and long discussion about this meta post. I found it ironic that the post complained about Trump's abuse of power while at the same time stack overflow employees continually reopened this post even though the community was in general agreement that it should be closed or historically locked. Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 11:34
  • 2
    very well said...
    – Sandeep
    Commented Feb 8, 2017 at 16:48
26
votes

Due to the recent, rather large edit to the 'question' I've decided to notify you that this answer is in respone to revision 6.

Disclaimer: I really, really, really dislike discussing politics, simply because politics are shit,manage to get me furious quite fast, and are - generally speaking - mostly opinion-based. That being said, I couldn't stop myself from adding my two cents to this Q&A.

Disclaimer²: I am not american, meaning that the actions of Donald Trump impact me mostly indirectly.

The question I had the whole time while reading this Q&A was "What does he want us to do about this?", because - as of now - the way it reads for me is "I'm [understandably] upset, be upset as well, and let the world hear how upset you all are!".

I might've missed something, but that doesn't seem constructive...

One thing everyone should keep in mind is that Trump becoming the POTUS is a symptom, not a cause. The cause is that - again, judging from a non-american perspective - that people felt mistreated & unhappy. Many voted to show others "Hey, I'm not happy with the current state!".

What a lot of people stated when asked why they'd vote for Trump was "He'll bring an end to the era of political correctness" amongst other reasons. I don't like political correctness, I never did & I never will like it. What gives a person the right to be "offended" and get "triggered" on another persons behalf, especially if that other person legitimately doesn't care?

Let's be real here, I don't think that many of Trump voters voted for him because "He'll build the wall!". Most of his voters became his voters because they wanted something to change.

And - honestly - I found the elections & the protests afterwards to be quite something. Protests everywhere, saying "F### Trump, he's a bad president" before Trump was even officially president.

I recall an "interview" with a female protester who - when asked "What are you protesting for?" - replied with "We hate Trump, and we want change!". Couldn't reply to the following question "How do you want to make a change?" however...

Concluding this answer: What do you expect us to do? Protest while representing a political opinion that might not be ours, and then embarass ourselves by failing to answer the second question asked?

22
votes

This is not a problem only in the US, Great Britain exits EU (one of the main reason was immigration) and builds a wall, France using tear gas push back immigrants on the at the border station of Ventimiglia Italy, Spain, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Lativa and the list can go on for almost every country also in Europe.

There is still hope on the little island of Lampedusa once a nice place vacations, the people living there has seen the tourist business go up in flames, but they are not complaining instead they take their fishing boats and go to sea to save people.

Lampedusa is building itself a new identity – one of collective compassion and solidarity with those most marginalised. - The Guardian

So what can Stack Overflow do?

  1. Zero tolerance to any kind of racism on all SE sites.
  2. Encourage and promote initiatives that brings people together.

maybe it's time for a SO Meeting at Lampedusa?, I bet you all will be welcome there.

Benvenuti http://tlaxcala-int.org/upload/gal_11908.jpg

Disclaimer: I do not live in Lampedusa, I'm born in Sweden, living in Bologna, Italy, this promotion for Lampedusa, is done as a thanks to the population living there, facing the problem each day and instead of building a wall, reach out the hand, dragging people out of the sea

9
  • 4
    Yeah the tear gas thingy is not something to be proud of...
    – Tunaki
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 14:39
  • 3
    I take offense in linking the article "Switzerland Proposes Barbed Wire Fence Along Italian Border". This was not an official Swiss proposal and the UDC/SVP cannot be called a "ruling party". Expression and discussion of differing views is a strength of a proper democratic system. A singular "quote" is not of any real value. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 14:45
  • @BatteryBackupUnit I just wanted to show that it's not a problem of only the US, but this is something wide spread in both US and Europe, Stack Overflow will not have a solution for this, but the community can help and encourage initiatives that does, that's why I seized the moment to promote people that are really making a different. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 15:00
  • You are using the same methods of propaganda the UDC/SVP is using, only the addressee is different. Wanting to do good is not the same as actually doing good, history has shown that numerous times. People really wanting to do good should reflect about that. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 15:04
  • 1
    @BatteryBackupUnit hmm, I think you worry to much about the image of Switzerland (the whole idea is stop thinking about our own backyard) anyway I will replace that example since there are so many. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 15:09
  • maybe the Melilla border fence is less offensive... Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 15:11
  • Being a swiss citizen had a role in me being interested in what the article had to say. I'm fairly confident that my reaction would not have been much different in case of me seeing the same kind of propaganda about other countries. Not being a citizen of other countries, though, it is of course harder to tell the truth about other countries' affairs. I'm generally appalled by "todays" (I don't know too much about long gone times) low standards in "presenting facts". Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 16:18
  • 1
    Fire at sea a little glimpse of the reality
    – Steve
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 22:43
  • 5
    You made me proud of a little part of my country and shed a tear. Bravo Petter. Best thing for me today.
    – Sklivvz
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 14:48
21
votes

My previous post has been deleted, because of "personal attacks". I think now it's fine (thanks TylerH for edit), so I want to repeat myself.


Of course, it's your right to share your opinion, and you can share it using your personal Twitter, Facebook etc., but please don't get our whole community involved.

You want us, developers, to unite, but now you divide people. I'm not the only one who is upset that you are making a Stack Overflow public political fiesta. If you are going to continue, many valuable developers probably won't post answers on Stack Overflow.

Keep in mind that Stack Overflow is nothing without community.

You are not representing all users beliefs, so please KEEP STACK OVERFLOW NEUTRAL.


To keep my answer possible StackOverflow-only, I shared my thoughts about this situation in political context under the link below, if you don't want, just don't read (safe, no personal attacks):

https://0bin.net/paste/2KsXf3KRJF6daMI6#qMB9ZtxqpM2+M94D4A1J3TnUsTv80GmzPpRqb-Pdow1

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votes

The majority of this answer (excepting my 'personal thoughts' section) is meant to be read in a largely up-beat and positive tone. I was in a mostly positive mood when I wrote it, excepting that one section, and as such I want this answer read light-heartedly. :)

Also, do note: now that the question has an actual question the middle of this answer addresses that.


I want to look at each section of this question in detail (I've already prepared my inbox for the hate-mail that will ensue):

I am extremely upset by President Trump’s executive order on immigration. It is immoral, unconstitutional, and fundamentally un-American.

The community on Stack Overflow is made up of users from all over the world. At least 100,000 posts on Stack Overflow were written by users from the seven countries from which President Trump has banned immigration. These posts have been viewed at least 250,000,000 times. That’s a lot of people sharing their knowledge across borders.

Stack Overflow is successful because of the contributions of everyone, regardless of nationality or religion. If Stack Overflow were not a free, open, and welcoming community that ignored borders, it would never work.

It’s impossible not to see the parallel: the only way to build a successful world today is to allow the contributions of everyone. Carving up the world into us vs. them, building walls, and demonizing religions, nations, and refugees is both morally repugnant and frankly stupid and counterproductive, and it goes so much against the spirit of Stack Overflow that as a community we must speak out.

Alright, so I get your frustration. The area of the U.S. I live in leans very much the opposite way as you, but I want to talk about some of my personal feelings (and a few facts, take them for what they are: salt in a river-bed) while I address each point.


I am extremely upset by President Trump’s executive order on immigration. It is immoral, unconstitutional, and fundamentally un-American.

You, and all other Americans, absolutely have this right and I applaud you for speaking out, I truly do. While I did DV this question (it's only because I think it's something that we shouldn't have to discuss in this venue, like many others) I respect the fact that you've put it out there, the biggest problem I have with this is 'fundamentally un-American'. I apologize in advance Joel if this seems rude, but it's not. It really isn't. This is not the first time, and I really don't think it'll be the last that the U.S. has barred immigration for some or all people.

I want to direct everyone to a very unfortunate part of American history: The Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882. We (the United States) barred immigration of certain Chinese persons on the basis that it endangered the welfare of other groups of Americans. This executive order is not the first time, and it will not be the last that we bar immigration, or otherwise single-out certain ethnic or religious groups as a nation. It's simply a fact of life. As long as there is violence there will be unfair treatment.

Of course, there are other things we did which were not immigration-status affecting, such as putting Japanese Americans in Internment Camps during WWII. Along with that came The Immigration Act of 1924 where we 'banned all immigration from Japan and other "undesirable" Asian countries.' (Verbatim quote from Wikipedia.)

Now, all this said, I ask you, what is the difference between then and now? Before WWII we were already banning immigration from Japan due to failing foreign relations, and during WWII we were fighting a war there. Do note, fighting a war. They were, at that point in time, the enemy. Racial relations between Asian-Americans and non-Asian-Americans were at an all-time-low. Does this remind us of anything, such as, recent times when relations between Muslim-Americans and non-Muslim-Americans are at an all-time-low?

We are in a war right now, with ISIS/IS especially, but other religious-extremist groups as well. Personally, I don't give a rat's a-- about where you come from or what religion you practice, I really don't. I always assume the best of intentions, but the funny thing about me is that my opinion isn't everyone's. We all have to remember: each and every person on this planet will form a slightly different opinion on something. Do I respect all persons until they demonstrate otherwise? Yes. Do I think that barring immigration from countries where the potential for taking in a terrorist at this current time is higher than normal is acceptable? Yes.

We all need to understand: this crisis in the middle-east is a war, we're fighting an enemy, and it's not truly extreme to bar immigration from countries that we are at war with.

Why? How can I say this? If I'm truly a person who thinks the best of everyone why/how can I justify this? There was a comment on another answer on this question:

...if the US was letting each immigrant be literally God upon entering the country...

The funny thing is, we are. I hate to be seen as the 'bad guy', but every single person who is allowed into this country (and every single person already here) is allowed to play God. Understand: when people have the opportunity to decide who lives and who dies, they are God. Please forgive the verbiage in this next sentence, I'm using it to demonstrate a point: while it may be true that not all of these immigrants...hell...not even many of these immigrants...let's just go ahead and say that barely any of these immigrants are potential terrorists, assume 1/100,000, that seems fair: while barely any of these immigrants are potential terrorists/violent persons, barring them from entering is the only sure-fire way to guarantee our safety. If we allow even one of these potential terrorists in we have allowed them to play God.


The community on Stack Overflow is made up of users from all over the world. At least 100,000 posts on Stack Overflow were written by users from the seven countries from which President Trump has banned immigration. These posts have been viewed at least 250,000,000 times. That’s a lot of people sharing their knowledge across borders.

And that's excellent, a truly miraculous feat to accomplish. Stack Overflow is one of many places that you can demonstrate that the contributions other countries, religious and political ideologies are extremely valuable. That's a wonderful achievement, it really is. :)


Stack Overflow is successful because of the contributions of everyone, regardless of nationality or religion. If Stack Overflow were not a free, open, and welcoming community that ignored borders, it would never work.

Absolutely true, and I'll describe more detail of this in the next section, but if we did create 'fundamental' borders with these countries, it's true that this would be a far less appealing environment in all facets.


It’s impossible not to see the parallel: the only way to build a successful world today is to allow the contributions of everyone. Carving up the world into us vs. them, building walls, and demonizing religions, nations, and refugees is both morally repugnant and frankly stupid and counterproductive, and it goes so much against the spirit of Stack Overflow that as a community we must speak out.

The problem I have with this is that you cannot use that to create a blanket statement that we should not prevent the possibility of dangerous persons entering this country from these countries, you truly cannot. To do so is to disregard even the most fundamental facets of human life: that all persons are created equal. (Seems hypocritical? It's not, I'll demonstrate.)

By trying to use the fact that 'almost all (that seems like a fair number) of our contributing users from these countries create positive content and atmosphere' as a blanket statement means you're disregarding two very fundamental facts of the situation:

  1. The users we attract are generally more well-rounded and less-likely to be dangerous to the general world-wide community;
  2. We do not know if any of these users are islamic-extremists;

By disregarding both of these we create a dangerous precedent: just because our users from these countries are seemingly positive doesn't mean all people from these countries are. There is a fine line and that statement crosses it.

I encourage everyone to share their opinion, even if it differs from my own. The respectful discourse of these issues between persons is how we resolve a situation like this in a manner that is fair to everyone. While, I am of the persuasion that this for the moment is not an entirely bad solutions to a deeply-troubling situation, there may be a better solution. Is the current solution unfair to the good people in these other countries trying to come over here? Yes. But we have a responsibility to protect ourselves and our fellow Americans first, we cannot deny that.


Where do we go from here? (Answering the new, actual question.)

All personal views aside, the question finally has an actual question to be answered, so let's answer it.

Jeff has a long blog post on how he feels and, more importantly, how he will take action. I don't care to discuss his opinion (I completely disagree with it and this) but you want to know what can be done, so let's talk about what you, as a taxpaying citizen, and what other United States Citizens (most of the list cannot be done by those who aren't citizens, well, should not be done - let's not spam our congress with opinions of people who don't reside in this country) can do:

  • Write a letter, phone call, email, fax to your local House and Senate members. The United States House of Representatives website has a nice tool to find your representatives. The United States Senate has a similar tool. It should be trivial to find their contact information from there. Email works, I've used it before to contact my congress members for a merit badge in Boy Scouts, usually your first response is from a member of their staff but sometimes you can actually get a picture of George Bush's dog. :)
  • Participate in protests. This has been, and will remain to be, less effective when fighting Trump's policies than almost any other method. If there's one thing we know about Donald J. Trump, it's that he feeds on this negative energy. Staging a protest will show other Americans that you don't support his views, but he'll continue to do everything he promised.
  • Sign any one of the online petitions. This will be just as ineffective as a protest, as this requires Trump himself to act on it. These petitions are also non-authoritive, they can't guarantee that only American citizens will sign it, and the problem with an online petition is that I can sign it dozens of times in almost every case with just a different email.
  • Vote during the next election. Another election will be held in 2018 (this is a long time) to reseat the House of Representatives and the Senate, vote for whom you think will best represent your views during this election. This doesn't help today, but it can help in the future.
  • Donate to organizations trying to fight this. This may or may not be more effective than the other options. Doing this option would mean you can put your money where your beliefs are, and find organizations (ACLU, for example) that will try to spend your money, and many other people's money, to fight this "injustice" that is occurring. They can afford very good lawyers, as well as having a lot more pull with the political advisors. (The ACLU, for example, directly interacts with many politicians regularly, they already know these people and can help get in touch with them.)
  • Join the organizations trying to fight this. Go out and actually join the ACLU (or your organization of choice). Put your actions where your beliefs are. Joel, you and Jeff are influential figures. I guarantee that if you both start supporting these organizations (especially by participation) you will garner a lot of support from the American people already sympathetic to your cause, and maybe convince others to join it.
  • Go to another country that has refugees/immigrants who cannot get into the U.S. and help them. Don't help them enter illegally, but use your human compassion to help them with their situation. Most of us in this thread are far better off than a lot of these immigrants, especially refugees. If even half of the people who up voted your question (time of writing there are 1887 up votes, half that is 943.5, so banker's round to even for 944) went to these other places and actually helped these people personally you would make the biggest difference in the world! Is this expensive? Yes. Is this risky? Absolutely. But every political battle worth winning has a lot of risk. If you can't fight the executive order, you can go out and help the people affected. And if you publicized that? Imagine the support, Joel. Just imagine it.
  • Go door to door (or to local gathering areas) spreading awareness. You tell us that Stack Overflow has people from all over the world, and that's good, but I assume that we also have people from all over the country, and that's also good. Go door to door (or to local gathering places) and garner support for the cause. (This may or may not be a good idea, some people may slam the door in your face, or worse.) I don't necessarily recommend this, but it's another thought. We have a very large community, if the 1887 (same up vote number from before) people from Stack Overflow went out and did this you would probably have a much more fighting chance.
  • Spread 'swag' supporting the topic. Stack Overflow / Stack Exchange has a very long history of using 'swag' as a medium for encoring users to do things, so you could build a swag campaign with one of two options: the first option is to give swag out that is designed to support the topic. (Not sure how you would design it, what slogans, etc. but something to the effect of 'Repeal Trump's Executive Orders on Immigration' is pretty dry, but a moderately solid start.) The second option would be to reward users who are spreading awareness with SE/SO/their choice of swag that's reasonable. The nice thing about the first option is you can do give-aways in public with that. Go to a college campus, setup a booth, give visitors a T-Shirt supporting your cause. Easy-peasy. We already have a fair number of users who are uni/college students in the U.S., this would definitely help them participate.

Some things I would advise against:

  • Removing or reworking the electoral college. This is a horrible idea only from the stance that the people who voted for Trump are already so mad at the fact that they have been written off entirely for 8 years that it's unbelievable. Many of these people are in less-populated areas. If you remove/rework the electoral college system in any of the manners that have been proposed you will most certainly create a great deal of tension, and very possibly a war, with the people who live in these areas (many of whom did support Trump).
  • Staging violent protests. This is never a good idea: if you want to support the idea of peace and such, and convince others to join your cause, violence will not do it. You may garner a very small amount of radicalism support, but you will cause yourself more harm in the long run. (Part of this is why the Trump supporters are very much against the Democratic party right now.)
  • Disregarding/disrespecting the Republican party, and Trump camp, in general. I've seen way more of this than there should ever have been, period in the last few weeks. I've been called racist, xenophobic, anti-American, and some more much nastier terms just because I support some of what Trump stands for, and I'm telling you right now this is exactly why I left the Democratic party. If you want to get people like me back, treat our respect with the same respect. I've not once (even in this long answer, or the long chat discussion, or anywhere) disrespected your (the Democratic party / other liberal groups) ideas, opinions or beliefs. You may help convince people like me to come back to supporting the Democratic party with this. Respect the point of view of the other side, and you might be surprised at how much support you regain. You truly might. (I would very possibly be one of them.)

This whole issue arose because of radicalization; if anyone thinks, even for a moment, that trying to solve it with radicalization will fix it, well, I hate to say it, but you're very wrong.

Personally, I think that garnering more support (Joel and Jeff, SO, SE are all high-visibility entities) would be a very good start. It would be more drawn-out than getting directly involved, but if you use the community to garner support for your topic you will eventually end up gathering the support of much higher-ranking individuals, persons that are more enabled to help make effective, positive change than going it alone. (Groups tend to oppose other groups doing the same thing politically because every group wants the credit for fixing it.)


Personal Thoughts

By request, I'm adding my comments on me personal feelings of the issue in a more consolidated form to this answer.

Any country (every, even) is responsible for protecting itself above all others. It's responsible for ensuring the safety of it's citizens above all others. It's responsible for protecting itself, first. Unfortunately, any country (regardless of origin) that ends up having to make this decision has to make some sort of compromise. "Where do we draw the line?"

For the first 90 days after the order was signed immigration from the 7 countries of Iran, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Libya, Yemen, Somalia will be restricted significantly for all persons, excepting some of those who are citizens of the United States currently.

Now, 90 days is not a significantly long time. That's three months, 1/4 of a year, one season. That's it. In my opinion, all things considered, it's reasonable. (Is it right? I'll get to that.)

Now, anyone who followed the United States presidential election between Hillary R. Clinton and Donald J. Trump knows that this was a huge issue brought up by Trump during the campaign many times. He said he was going to do this from the beginning. I can't help but wonder why everyone is in so much 'shock and awe' over this. We knew it was going to happen, we freaking knew.

The purpose of this order (and I'm going to use name-calling one time here) is to help our freaking dysfunctional government work out a better procedure for filtering out potentially-harmful persons from potentially dangerous areas. Is that too much to ask? It is too much to ask our president (well, some of us have this president) to limit the amount of work an already understaffed government has to do to protect us?

And so I want to share a bit of personal information: I had a very dear friend who joined the U.S. armed forces (to anyone present/prior/future service: thank you all) and was killed in Iraq due to the violence from one of these terrorist groups over there. I couldn't help but be eternally upset about it. My friend died trying to protect us.

And you might say 'well I know people who have died too', but the issue isn't that people have died or sacrificed, the issue is that we have the possibility to prevent this from happening here. Don't we owe that to ourselves, our friends and family?

I want to end this (sad) section with the following snippet from a comment I made on this answer:

It's absolutely not fair, I agree with that. I can agree that it's unfair to the people being barred. The thing is, it's also unfair for me, a U.S. citizen, to disregard the safety and security of other citizens. We all saw what happened with France, I'd prefer to avoid having that here. I really would. We don't have a major terrorism problem yet because of our aggressive laws. Hell, we should outright bar immigration period, until we resolve our internal crises. We have way more problems in our country than not, and no one can dispute that.

That's all, that's my plea. That's my sad, somber message.


The Actual Order

First, the full text of the first order which was omitted from the original question, and the full text of the second order, which was also omitted. (Whether or not that's by-design I am not discussing/alluding to, let's not make this any more painful than it already is.) Do note that the White House website is a pita to navigate: click an order, the first time you'll hit a splash page, click out of it, then go back to this answer and click the order again and you should make it to the expected order. (Maybe one of the items on the bullet list above should be to send a top web-based contributor of SO to Trump and work from the inside to fix the White House website first, so that we can all have a better site to use when trying to find factual data to use in our favor.)

First and foremost: the immigration ban is to ease the burden on agencies to allow them to create a more robust method of filtering out those who may be potential harm to the U.S., not to disallow people from these countries in general.

If we find the appropriate U.S.C. for this regard, we find that it states:

whether the presence of an alien in the country or area increases the likelihood that the alien is a credible threat to the national security of the United States; whether a foreign terrorist organization has a significant presence in the country or area; and whether the country or area is a safe haven for terrorists.

These countries and areas are determined by the Secretary of Homeland Security on an annual basis.


I know that this will probably be the 'unpopular opinion' on the subject, and I'm not trying to tell you that any one point of view is better, all I'm trying to say is that there are always two-sides to a story. We can't just say 'this is outrageous' without understanding the other side, it's unfair to ourselves, and unfair to our friends, family and fellow citizens.

Yes, this is a long answer, but there is a lot of information to discern and, hopefully, help us all come to a deeper understanding of the issue and work together to solve it.

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  • 13
    But we are not at war at Iran, so what is the reason to ban them? In fact they are actively fighting ISIS. This all reeks of something politically motivated. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 5:18
  • 12
    @KodosJohnson Did I say all Iranian people? No, I did not. I do, in fact, know more than one Iranian. I spent a fair amount of time living in a middle-eastern division of Detroit. I know their culture, beliefs, how they act, how they treat people, how they treat their families. I like each and every one of them. Your comment is largely insulting, I'm disgusted that you would assume I'm putting down the entire group of people like that. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 5:33
  • 16
    If we really wanted to ban an entire country because of danger or terrorism, why have we not banned Saudia Arabia or Pakistan, where most of the people who actually committed terrorism originated? I'm not advocating banning anyone, I just want to highlight how arbitrary and politically-motivated this ban is. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 5:33
  • 11
    The internment of Japanese people in the United States during WWII is a blemish on US history as bad as the fire bombings in Dresden, or the fact that the eugenics movement started on Long Island. That's why "History" is a course curriculum in education in the US. This is fact. Not speculation.
    – wahwahwah
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 8:24
  • 7
    This is something I keep seeing... why do you think its ethically OK that something is happening right now just because something similar happened in the 1940's? Have you seen this? Doesn't that make it worse? This is such a massive false equivocation... It's like saying we're at war with crocs and detaining everyone who's ever smoke a joint before...
    – wahwahwah
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 8:37
  • 5
    @CptEric Read the full text of the order, please. I know you want to feel like this is a major issue, but the biggest thing that everyone is ignoring is that the full immigration ban is only going to be enacted for 90 days, it's not permanent. It's temporary, to allow the terribly slow government here (which anyone who has interacted with the U.S. government can vouch for) to start investigating how to let these people in more securely. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 13:17
  • 2
    temporary For now . what gives you the impression that it can't simply be pushed again 90 days more? you know how many days are 90 days? have you realized what could happen to families split due to vacation / studies with that problem? i'ts not only a major issue, it's blatantly major.
    – CptEric
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 13:43
  • 4
    @CptEric First: no need for name calling; second: it's three months. That's it. A fourth of a year. It may feel like a lot of time to you, but to the people here, some of whom live in fear, it'll be a longer time without this regulation. The purpose of this order is not to bar other countries but to decrease strain on a dysfunctional government so that it can prepare more effective, long-term policies. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 13:50
  • 4
    strip yourself of 90 days of salary, be kept apart from your children for 90 days, see what happens if you miss 90 days of university, and we'll talk. names were there for a reason, inhuman behaviour.
    – CptEric
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 13:50
  • 4
    @CptEric I can understand you're frustrated, but the day Trump was elected he promised to do this. Unfortunately I cannot feel sorry for anyone who didn't expect this to happen. I respect your opinion, I really do. It's good that you're sharing it, it really is. But, unfortunately, I am not willing to sacrifice the safety and security of my country for it. This situation is what you make of it if you are outside the U.S. right now. Spend extra time with your family and friends that are outside the U.S. if you got denied reentry, or petition that denial through the appropriate channels. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 13:56
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    i'm neither a US citizien nor a person from the banned countries, and my country has had way bigger problems than yours with terrorism, for a lot more years than yours, you're no special snoflake in the world. Yet here i am, on the side of human rights, defending those that have all the rights to travel wherever they want because they've done nothing wrong. That's how you create extremism. Guess what? USA is world's laughter material n#1 since friday, but also n#1 "WTF's going on with their people" caring material. Good look, again, with your fascist leadership, and your compliance with it.
    – CptEric
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 14:02
  • 4
    @CptEric While that's borderline offensive (more name calling, I asked politely to refrain from that), I don't condone what Trump did, but I'm not going to go far enough to push it the other way either. I want you to know that I've lost friends to this war, friends sent over to these countries on a 'peace-keeping' mission. They've been killed by roadside bombs and gunfights. I'd prefer not to bring that here. It's 90 days. If we want to change or expedite it, let's do it. But trying to convince each other that they're opinion is wrong will not solve anything. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 14:07
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    And i lost family members because france refused to accept refugees fleeing from fascist Spain in 1939. What has any of those green card holders done to your friends? The families? The students? Targeting a whole and very well picked range of people just because some (0.1%?0.3%?1%?) of their nationals are a bunch of brainwashed assasins can't be fair in anyone's mind, no matter how many revanchism there is.
    – CptEric
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 14:17
  • 4
    @CptEric It's absolutely not fair, I agree with that. I can agree that it's unfair to the people being barred. The thing is, it's also unfair for me, a U.S. citizen, to disregard the safety and security of other citizens. We all saw what happened with France, I'd prefer to avoid having that here. I really would. We don't have a major terrorism problem yet because of our aggressive laws. Hell, we should outright bar immigration period, until we resolve our internal crises. We have way more problems in our country than not, and no one can dispute that. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 14:26
  • 5
    Yet most of the perpetrators in france were full citiziens of france, with all the rights, born there by french or french colonies parents. Fear is bad, even star war's jedis know where it leads.
    – CptEric
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 14:32
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votes

Stack Overflow is successful because of the contributions of everyone, regardless of nationality or religion. If Stack Overflow were not a free, open, and welcoming community that ignored borders, it would never work.

To be fair the success of StackOverflow lies in the countless rules of the site. If it were not for those rules SO would've been a complete mess. Stack Overflow is free and open to all races, but still discriminates - just on a different criteria - pricks. If you are being a nasty and harassing person they would ban you.

Further more - all the restrictions - "you can't vote down if you don't have enough reputation", "you cant vote to delete posts if you don't have enough reputation", "locked threads", "protected threads" and many more rules and restrictions that make it significantly harder for trolls to ruin the community.

4
  • 6
    Exactly. Each group has its own rules, laws, enforcers and undesirables. What does SO do with people who come through proxy or TOR? Who use disposable email addresses? People who vandalize questions, spam, abuse link building, don't search before posting a question etc. etc. Running a country is obviously much more serious than running a web site, because the administration is responsible for the lives and livelihood of physical people, not just their virtual approximations. I'm happy Trump is in charge and I don't think it's "time to take a stand". I hope Europe will get inspired, too.
    – Martin
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 16:39
  • 2
    @Martin: with that, you are defending blanket IP bans that span entire nations.
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 18:53
  • @RadLexus: No, we should stay in the internet terminology: It's analogous to the blocking of IP ranges. Which is a normal, albeit quite heavy handed practice.
    – Martin
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 19:19
  • @Martin Running a country is obviously much more serious than running a business - though that's what Trump thinks he's doing. Your point? Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 10:08
19
votes

In response to the edit by hairboat

What we haven't really touched on are the effects of this policy on the Stack Overflow community and how critical Stack Overflow's global nature is to its success. Our data team dug up stats on how answers often span borders and even time zones.

An open immigration policy is one way to strengthen a peaceful global community.

Woah there... first are you advocating an open, unrestricted immigration policy across the globe? That's incredibly idealistic and unrealistic proposal. Even within the EU, free movement of people has caused a lot of difficulties as the membership has widened to include nations of significantly different wealth.

Secondly, an open web and open borders are very different things. We're all aware that an international virtual community is a wonderful thing. Here in the UK I can get an answer from someone in the US but even we don't have open borders... me answering your question is not the same as me coming to live in your country.

You seem to be declaring a very partisan position on international politics on behalf of the SO/SE community without giving the community a chance to make that decision (they might well agree but that's not the point).

19
votes

If you want to keep the Trump administration in check, stop "carving up the world into us vs. them". It's not time to take a stand. It's time to kiss and make up and learn how to compromise again.

I received an alert from IEEE that I think is much more constructive than the original post here and uplifts instead of divides. I'm including it here as an example of what I would have preferred to have seen from StackExchange.

So, I wasn't surprised when President Trump was elected. No, I'm not psychic. I just listen to people and I don't assume that someone is a bad person because they're misinformed. Everyone is going to have to come to terms with the idea that a significant portion of the US voted for President Trump, and that they are not all racist misogynistic homophobes.

If you want to change the effectiveness of the Trump administration, you need to persuade the people that elected him that while it was really fun to stick it to The Powers That Be, he's off the rails. Calling someone who supports a certain policy immoral, un-American, racist, etc. (which is what you do when you call the policy those things) is not persuasion.

There are reasonable, socially tolerant people that support some form of extra vetting of people traveling from certain countries. Do you know why they support it if they aren't racists? No? Maybe you should ask them in a way that they will tell you honestly what they're thinking so that you can convince them they've made a mistake.

The folks I talked to were convinced by Israeli security procedures which includes interviews that "[...]could last as little as one minute or as long as an hour, based on such factors as age, race, religion and destination." Their argument is "It works for them, why shouldn't we try it?" and the answer they say they get is "We can't because it's racist."

The folks I talked to that were voting for Trump didn't necessarily like the guy or the dumb things he said. It was a protest vote because they're tired of being accused of being terrible people because they support some policy that seems to them to be a new approach to fixing something they see as broken. They aren't going to discuss it with people who think they're "deplorable". They're just going to go to the polls and quietly vote for the most extreme candidate. Then they're going to get some popcorn, watch people freak out, and hope that by trying to break everything that the US will get unstuck and issues can have more than a "right side" and "wrong side" again.

13
  • 5
    "...Trump didn't necessarily like the guy or the dumb things he said. It was a protest vote..." That's a very weak argument from them. I always said that if you vote for a guy you should be for the guy, not against someone else. Voting for the most extreme candidate seems like a recipe for disaster. Better vote for a hitherho unknown moderate candidate instead. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 15:46
  • "...hope that by trying to break everything..." That is indeed a risk but it can be doubted that effectively anything gets better on average by first breaking all the things. To me it sounds a bit like attempted suicide in order to get heard. These voters really have my empathy but still I would never choose their path. I don't believe it can work out that way. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 15:49
  • 3
    @Trilarion The fact that you need to try to debate the merits of what you heard second hand that some unspecified people think means I haven't made my point very well. Those folks are never going to talk to you if you can't stop telling them they're stupid. They did what they did for whatever reason and it doesn't matter now. The US desperately needs everyone to get back on speaking terms. What we need is a good family counselor to help us remember that we care about each other ;)
    – ColleenV
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 18:43
  • 2
    @ColleenV yeah but one of us is beating us on the head, taking what was shared before, builds a wall, says that my sister should not be in control of her body anymore, that my black brother is second class citizen and cuts in public health. surely you will admit that this person should be remembered first about caring for others? Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 20:44
  • The "compromise" as far as the american people are concerned based on policy issues, starts far left of the current democratic party, and the republicans are too far out to be considered serious at this point. All they have is framing and the consistent ineptitude of the democrats.
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 2, 2017 at 14:37
  • @ColleenV I don't think at this point compromise is possible, the political climate is too charged and people are too on edge. And "to help us remember that we care about each other" isn't actually true. Many people would gladly cast their politcial opponents into the sea if they could legally. There is nothing to mend here because all that's left are bitter enemies.
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 2, 2017 at 14:39
  • 4
    @Magisch Do you know someone personally that would kill you because you disagree with them (if it was legal)? it's easy to vilify people in the abstract, and difficult to reach out a hand. If you can't see that this rhetoric is destructive, I won't be able to convince you. Hate never makes the world a better place. If we can't look at our enemy and see a person that can be redeemed, the world will never know peace. I have yet to have anyone I've reached out to respond with venom. Most folks are just really worried about where this division is going to lead.
    – ColleenV
    Commented Feb 2, 2017 at 15:45
  • @ColleenV I do know someone. Told me on multiple occasions that if it wasn't illegal I'd be dead already. Our initial disagreement started with our difference of opinion on the amount of refugees germany should let in.
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 2, 2017 at 16:04
  • @Magisch Did you file a police report? Death threats should not be taken lightly.
    – ColleenV
    Commented Feb 2, 2017 at 17:11
  • @ColleenV No. If I filed a police report for every death threat I get, I'd have to file a whole bunch of them.
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 2, 2017 at 17:16
  • 1
    @magisch which is my point. You don't perceive that as a real threat. It's rhetoric, and it's destructive. Someone else doing wrong does not absolve you.
    – ColleenV
    Commented Feb 2, 2017 at 17:27
  • @ColleenV Sure, I never said I'd make death threats. I just think we've arrived at a point in the discussion where for both sides the minimum starting position for discussion is for the opposing side to concede on all points completly. I don't think debate is constructive in such a climate. Either one side has to back down, or one side has to be made to back down now. There's no compromise because there's nothing to compromise on. On virtually all important issues, both sides are ideologically diametrically opposed to each other.
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 12:54
  • @Magisch Of course you don't think compromise is possible because you're seeing sides and not people. I could give you examples of how views are more complicated than two party politics make them out, but you would just find another way that it's just impossible to be less partisan. What do we have to lose by descalating? The EO wasn't stopped by people screaming and calling each other names or by smashing up a Starbucks or by macing a Trump supporter or by Chuck Schumer's tears. It was stopped by lawyers and a Federal judge.
    – ColleenV
    Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 15:06
18
votes

Although opinions vary, there is a big urge to do something, and a feeling that our community should be large enough to have influence, so please read my proposal.

The dilemma of Meta as a platform

This is not the first political statement from the founders of SO and again for an issue that is mainly posed in the USA.

If you really appreciate the international community, allow other political statements too. I understand why this is important to you, but for me, living on the other side of the ocean, the only thing I'm afraid of, is that Trump will press a button to nuke Europe when he thinks he doesn't need us anymore. Now I'm blessed that this hopefully-not-so-realistic scenario is one of my biggest worries in life, but I'm sure people in some other countries have actual problems and still won't find a platform for their cause on Stack Overflow.

And that is the delicate balance between being a huge community and being a privately owned website: who are you -the owner/company- to decide that your cause is so important compared to others's, and who are we -the community- to decide what you can or and cannot post on your own website?

For SO/SE to actually get involved

My proposal would be to start a Stack Exchange Foundation that can be involved throughout the world. The main focus of the foundation could be on educational projects, an idea that matches with the core business of the SE network anyway. Better education leads to more peace, prosperity, but even better opportunities to build a new life if you would have to (or just want to) leave your country for whatever reason. And better education might have prevented Trump from being elected in the first place.. ;-)

Anyway, such a foundation could try to influence political situations too, and might actually make a difference (in contrast to a Meta post).

I would be more proud to be part of a community that formally supports these causes, than a community that is basically non-political until something happens in the USA that drives the founder up the wall.

The foundation can be fed from advertisement income and donations (I think I would), and through the SE blogs you can keep the community informed on causes and results.

Make it a community-foundation

To take it even further maybe you could even create a SE-foundation community that can suggest causes they care for, ideas to solve problems and determine focus projects (within the defined scope for the Foundation) based on votes. "Gamification" seems like an inappropriate word here, and I hope this doesn't sound like I downplay the seriousness of the subject, but I actually think that this kind of interaction might lead to interesting insights and results and at least more involvement from (part of) the members of the SE community. Maybe the details need some thought: you don't want people rep-whoring in this community (I think..)...

Anyway, the SE community is full of experts on a huge range of subjects, and by not just gathering their donations but also their skills, who knows what problems we can solve?

And if it turns out that this doesn't work, you could fall back to a more traditional format, or donate your resources to the Bill & Melinda Gates foundation.

I'm not sure how these ideas will directly solve issues with Trump's immigration policy, but nevertheless, I hope that they will contribute to SE growing into an even more socially involved community that can actually make a difference.

4
  • "Now I'm blessed that this actually is one of my biggest worries..." Your are blessed? I live in Europe too and I have this worry too and it makes me worrying a lot about the future of my family. I don't exactly feel blessed and I feel unwantedly in big danger. The world is unfortunately very small and the other side of the ocean doesn't mean much nowadays. However, I agree that many internet communities in the world are a bit too much US centric. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 10:56
  • 1
    @Trilarion Of course I worry about the future too. But I'm blessed compared to so many people around the globe who are hungry, homeless, in a war zone, or under threat of being reported from the USA right now.
    – GolezTrol
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 11:02
  • That's true. It could be much worse but I would not underestimate the threat of a nuclear holocaust. The chances might be very small but the impact would be overwhelmingly huge. Together this gives an estimated danger of ??? difficult to calculate really. The thing is, it impacts me so strongly that sometimes I cannot sleep at night. Maybe something is wrong with me. I'm not even hungry or homeless or in a war zone. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 11:11
  • 6
    This is the only response I've seen that constructively addresses the actual content. Plus I think it's a good idea. Bravo!
    – jscs
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 0:02
15
votes

To all those who have voted to close or will vote to close this post,

Yes SO is a programming Q&A site and yes we try to stay focused on that goal. We usually shut down offtopic discussion and even discourage fun, but there are times when the rules must be broken and things need to be said. Sometimes staying out of the fray is implicit consent with things that shouldn't be consented to. Sometimes you have to break the rules in order to do the right thing.

I realize that some of you may disagree with the stand Joel has taken, but rather than trying to shut down the discussion take a moment to examine why you disagree. Perhaps even take a moment to discus it with someone who may not hold your point of view.

Exchanging ideas won't cost you any more than a few moments of your time. If your time is too precious then you're always free to ignore this post and continue your usual activities on SO.

But keep in mind...
“Everything we do is political... Even the things we choose not to do.”

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  • 31
    I realize that you may disagree with the position of not making Meta a political platform, but rather than trying to shut down the expression of that position, take a moment to examine why you feel that this site should be a political platform. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 6:22
  • 10
    @TigerhawkT3 Even the things we choose not to do...
    – apaul
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 6:24
  • 25
    And every variable has an address, even the ones that have never been declared or assigned or mentioned in any way, right? No. This doesn't belong here, and voting to close just happens to be the perfect, appropriate way to express that. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 6:27
  • 4
    @TigerhawkT3 I'm certainly not trying to suppress that point of view, I've been on both sides of it from time to time. I'm just saying that rather than closing and moving on to the next thing, state your case (in an answer preferably) Choosing not to discuss it is just as much a stand as choosing to discuss it. Occasionally real life encroaches on our happy little internet utopia and we need to be able to address that.
    – apaul
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 6:36
  • 2
    If someone does have the point of view that this issue is off-topic for the site, the proper course of action is to flag/vote for closure as an off-topic question. And no, choosing not to discuss it is not a stand on anything, any more than a desire for privacy means that one is engaging in inappropriate behavior. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 6:43
  • 1
    @apaul34208: Using a programming site in the US is the new programming on a boat. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 6:53
  • 9
    The determination about whether an issue affects our community and thus warrants an exception to the usual rules is being made according to a single person's beliefs and political viewpoint. I know I didn't see any featured Meta post about some laws my state enacted last November - laws that violate the Bill of Rights, interstate commerce, and basic freedoms. What would happen if I made a Meta post about these new laws? Would you be telling people not to close it? Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 7:16
  • 2
    @TigerhawkT3 There is such a thing as a legitimate disagreement regarding politics. But the most important objections to Trump's executive order regarding immigration are not based on politics, but on morality. Even many Republican politicians (e.g. Flake and McCain) have expressed concerns about the executive order.
    – stevehs17
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 21:49
  • 8
    @stevehs17 "not based on politics, but on morality" - That's the same empty excuse politicians always give. "It's not because I'm <affiliation>, it's because I'm right! My ethics and morals are just a little better than yours." This is 100% political. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 22:08
  • The problem is not everyone is allowed to break the rules ... Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 14:33
  • Not everyone here agrees on what is the right thing. Don't position yourself and StackOverflow to start marginalizing users based on politics. I don't want to see StackOverflow become a place where the deep divisions in the United States are exactly reproduced. There are political activist sites - use them. There is Quora - use it. Keep SO a place where everyone is welcome and can get help in their development issues.
    – Deborah
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 5:55
  • 1
    @Deborah it wasn't my intention to marginalize users, my intention was to support those that felt it was time to speak up and hopefully to encourage some sort of civil discourse. I wholeheartedly understand why people would rather not see this discussion here... I guess I was hoping that this community could/would handle it better than most.
    – apaul
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 11:20
  • Woohoo meaningful conversation achieved: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/134478 see there, the system works!
    – apaul
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 14:13
  • 1
    @apaul34208 It may not have been your intention but the results are easy to foresee. "Discourse" is not the same as "agree with me and protest with me" (whatever form that protest takes), which appears to be the intent of your original post.
    – Deborah
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 9:14
  • 1
    @Deborah It can be convincingly argued that anyone supporting trump is in support of marginalizing other people and thus can't expect to be treated like a reasonable person by anyone sane. I'm not that convinced of this but a whole lot of people across the US are. The "tolerate even intolerance" schtick has gotten quite old. I think people are tired of tolerating intolerance all over the world by now.
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 2, 2017 at 14:41
13
votes

Yay, the third time I am writing an answer to this abomination. This time, however, you've actually given us something that is identifiable as question, albeit being kind of broad. Thank's for doing so. Answer #1 & Answer #2.


But we haven't really touched on the effects on the Stack Overflow community and how critical Stack Overflow's global nature is to its success.

Yes, the global nature of Stack Overflow certainly is critical to its success. We have people of all sorts here, no matter what, we're all developers, directly or indirectly, regardless of colour, origin, politic orientation etc. Personally, I see this as a gift.

A gift, that you, Joel Spoelsky, tried to poison with your carelessness, by your naive way of thinking that this community would be okay with you shoving your political beliefs onto us. Guess what, we are not.

This question has caused a lot of bad blood. I've said it before, heck, I even stated this on my profile (something I normally not do), screw things used to separate people. That includes things like the colour of one's skin, the language one speaks, the accent one has, and the country one lives in or originates from. Screw separating people using that.

However, it also includes separating / alienating & generalising people who don't share your opinion. Something that you have done in your rant, multiple times. If you intend to preach tolerance you should show that you're tolerant yourself, a quality, which, after reading this rant, I can & will not attest you.


Open immigration policy is one way to strengthen a peaceful global community.

Good thing you're talking about "strengthening a peaceful, global community" while lighting up a discussion that led to the community splitting up into camps ("Pro-EO", "Contra-EO", "I don't care about your politics, leave me alone!"), so you could basically just rephrase that to "How do we fix the damage that has been done".

In addition to that, what type of community do you expect us to be? Do we have differing pictures, or plans even? Because - as I see it - this is a developer community. We ask questions, we answer questions, we clean up questions, and we - to a certain extent - even moderate the content posted on this site.

I don't know how you expect an open immigration policy to strengthen our community, if our community exists mostly online (except for the meet-ups), free from boundaries like borders. I don't know if I'm the only one who thinks that way, but there are very few members of the Stack Overflow community that I actually "know" to a certain extent.

However, in general, I don't care about the users. I care about the content, and about the functionality of the site, meaning that I really don't see how a policy like that should affect me, except if you stick it in my face by making it featured & not letting me close it. As I said, I don't know if I'm the only one thinking this way.


Net neutrality is another that's under fire around the world (and nonexistent in many areas).

I get the connection between net neutrality & border restrictions being reinforced, but - for me - this isn't really, or, shouldn't really be about net neutrality.


This is the best, smartest, and most organized community of programmers on the internet.

Best? Yes. There's is - in my eyes - little to no competition to the Stack Overflow community, both in terms of quality & efficiency.

Smartest? Arguably. We do have quite a few people here that exceed my personal definition of "smart" by a lot.

Most organized? Not too sure about that, given the fact that you purposely decided to steamroll over the rules set to keep this community & project organized.


What can we do to protect these and other freedoms? How can Stack Overflow the community and Stack Overflow the company best direct our collective influence?

Do you know what's important in order to direct influence? There are two things that I am getting at here.

The first one is confidence. Confidence that we have influence. Confidence that you trampled over by using your status to forcefully reopen this question multiple times (not talking about the community reopening it, I'm talking about SE employees single-handedly reopening this).

The second one is belief. Believing in that what you "want us to do". Directing our collective influence? Who gets to sit in the drivers seat? You? Sorry, but after this embarrassing presentation of your take on "being professional" I'd rather not be taken on a ride by you.


So, to answer your questions:

What can we do to protect these and other freedoms?

What you and a lot of "lefties" (sorry for the derogative term, I know of no better) think, and where you are wrong is that Trump will resign if you cry out loud enough & hit the table with your fists often enough.

That won't happen.

What you need to do, and what you need to (re-)learn (if you've ever truly known it, which I - no offense - highly doubt when looking at this question) is communication!

"Why do we need to communicate with alt-rights, we will just scream at them and then they will give up, because that's how society works, right? Scream loud & long enough and you shall receive what you've requested?"

No.

Trump made quite a lot of campaign promises. Promises, directed to his voters, his supporters. The ones who believed in him. I don't know Trump personally, and I assume most of us do not, but I think that he's feeling obliged to stick to his promises. I think he feels like he owes his supporters that much.

The reason why that's so important is that it should - if you've read carefully - show you how to "make a change". Talk with Trump supporters, like, actually talk with them as you would with persons that share your beliefs, on a round table. No "moral highground"-horsedodo.

Once - if ever - you've reached a point where you can actually talk normally with people who have a different opinion then you without trying to shove your opinion on them every 5 minutes, you've completed the first step.

In the second step you can then attempt to convince them of your position.

How can Stack Overflow the community and Stack Overflow the company best direct our collective influence?

Well, apparently we do not have a collective goal to direct our collective influence at, so scratch that, there's no need for further discussions. If you, however, still want to go through with it, go ahead.

I just wouldn't recommend demonstrating against Trump in the "usual" fashion, since that, if anything, only makes his supporters adore him more.

20
  • How, exactly, do you suggest that one is to persuade others of her opinion without "trying to shove [her] opinion on them"? I don't know if you're just meaning to claim that one must maintain respectful discourse at all times, but overstating your point, or if you are actually saying something else entirely.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 12:13
  • 4
    @CodyGray For me "shoving one's opinion onto somebody else" is always forceful. Forceful can include, but isn't limited to, things such as alienation and the like. Persuading someone, on the other hand, is legitimate arguing on an even basis, in a way that you accept that you & your 'opponent' are equal in this discussion. In essence, you want to show the other party what your perspective is and why you chose it, and leave the decision to themselves, without forcing them. That's what I meant by that. I hope I made it clear.
    – Seth
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 12:28
  • 2
    So, your issue is that Joel uses strong language here when making his point? Experts in the art of persuasion and rhetoric would commend that. Don't just say it is "bad", say it is "immoral, unconstitutional, and fundamentally anti-American". Not only is the latter more explicit, but it is also more rhetorically powerful. Or is your issue simply with the venue in which it is presented, because you feel that you and him are not on equal footing because he is the CEO of the company?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 12:44
  • 5
    @CodyGray Both. Firstly, he also called it "morally repugnant and frankly stupid", which is just rude. "Immoral" depends on your personal definition of what's moral & what's not. "Unconstitutional" is wrong. It isn't. "Anti-American" is also wrong, since he has no right to define that. That's what's annoying me, what I don't like. Saying "I think..." would've been okay. Expressing your opinion freely. Saying "This is...." isn't. That's stating something, and what he states is simply untrue.
    – Seth
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 12:57
  • 7
    @CodyGray And yes, my issue is also that we're not on equal footing. He's abusing both the "moral highground" and his position as tools to shove his opinion on the community, and I really, really dislike that, I find it pathetic and embarassing, despicable even. The problem is that if I were to call his motives / opinion stupid & all that other good stuff, my answer would probably be deleted rather quickly for being rude, and I'd likely end up getting punished. Even if not, the "fear" of that taking place would always impact me.
    – Seth
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 13:00
  • 1
    @CodyGray And yes, those "experts" most certainly would commend that. Mostly, however, if it's about spoken words, atleast from what I've learned. Using them in written form only leads to them using most of their meaning by the second time you read through them. The only thing that stays is "My opinion is superior".
    – Seth
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 13:03
  • …wow. I don't even know what to say. I mean, I have taken and taught courses on persuasive writing (and speech), and the intense language that you find so disagreeable is precisely what one is encouraged to use when conveying a point. Of course you can disagree with the assertions and the facts. You can disagree that it's immoral, disagree that it's unconstitutional, etc. The "in my opinion"/"I think" is implicit—the author's name is attached to it. Yes, definitely the message being conveyed is "my opinion is superior"—that's the persuasion part, and being emphatic is by design.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 13:20
  • I am literally amazed you are not familiar with this and/or that you find this so objectionable. I mean, yeah, I agree that there may be an unequal power dynamic here, and that is problematic, although this is a discussion site, and you are supposed to feel free to disagree. It's a bit like a debate. One person makes strong claims, then you have a chance to disagree. If your answer was deleted, that would be a serious problem, but that's just speculative. Your "fear" is unwarranted here, and taking pre-emptive offensive is absurd. But anyway: fascinating opinion. Mindblowing to me.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 13:21
  • 3
    @CodyGray Always happy to help (esp. with blowing minds). Meh, if he'd actually have cared for an open discussion, he'd have phrased the question neutral & posted an answer himself. And, given the fact that he - as mentioned often enough by now - set himself above the rules in multiple instances regarding this question goes to show how "unwarranted" my fear is. If he doesn't give anything about the possible consequences for his image as CEO by posting this, why would he give anything about the consequences of suspending someone? I don't really see why that's so weird.
    – Seth
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 13:29
  • The reason this is interesting and worrisome to me is that I frequently write Meta posts with strong language and express my opinions in an emphatic way. I'm not actually an asshole, and I don't intend to offend people. It is actually difficult for me to imagine how my having opinions would be offensive to someone else, even if they disagree with those opinions. I guess the exception would be if I insulted them for disagreeing with me, but no matter how many times I read this, I just can't see Joel doing that. He insults the policy, not people.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 13:33
  • 4
    @CodyGray Oh, I do so as well. But I think that this rant simply is rude. "Demonizing religions, nations, and refugees is both morally repugnant and frankly stupid" for example. Most people do not demonize those things. But a lot of people are worried about, as a popular example, islamic terrorism. Those people are who Joel calls stupid, and whose opinions he calls morally repugnant. I find that to be quite rude, and apparently I am not the only one. And lasty, like I said, a neutral question, paired with an answer packed with all those emotions would've done much better.
    – Seth
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 13:43
  • 6
    Another thing that I find disturbing about this whole thread is the answer by Kasra, and the fact that it's still there, including that nice analogy, basically stating that everyone who doesn't share "their" views is no different then the german people 1939. Why is that answer still there, atleast in its current form? All in all I must say that this just doesn't feel like a healthy debate, heated yes, healthy no. It feels more like a witchhunt, or an appeal to do so.
    – Seth
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 13:45
  • As much as I like you (You know I do) I can't agree even remotely with your answer here.
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 15:05
  • @Magisch That's good! Would you mind sharing your view on the situation? :)
    – Seth
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 19:38
  • 1
    @Seth You know my opinions about trump (that I don't like him is very mildly put), and I really don't think this is a big deal. I'd prefer if Joel wouldn't start doing this on the reg, but one meta thread is hardly a crack in the shell. I don't buy this complete outrage about taking a political stand, much less about misusing meta for it. So what it displaced 1-2 recurring FRs about downvote comments or what. It's going to be fine, despite 2 pages of moaning and lots of bold text.
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 21:15

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