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The Problem

I keep trying to review questions in the Help and Improvement queue, but I'm finding it impossible. The only action options are Edit and Skip, but every question I have seen is

  1. unintelligible to the point that it should be closed,
  2. incomplete in some way that only the author can fix (e.g., no MCVE),
  3. way too broad, or
  4. just completely off-topic.

For example, there's this question, which is very broad, has no MCVE, and doesn't specify what the OP did or tried to do. That question needs to be nuked, not edited. [Edit: Since posting this question, the OP of my original example has added code and improved the question significantly. But the point is that (1) it took intervention by the OP to make that a useful question, and (2) examples of doomed questions still abound in H&I, like this one, this one, and this one.]

Because of problems like this, the H&I queue is growing rapidly, but the vast majority of questions there seem to belong in the Close Votes queue, not H&I.

The Question

Can we add more useful options, like Close and Flag, to this queue? My impression is that users in the Triage queue are overusing the Needs Improvement option, such that lots of questions that are unsalvageable get flagged as needing editing. Let's make it possible to fix this directly by casting appropriate votes or raising appropriate flags, rather than just prolonging the life of doomed questions.

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  • That's probably steered by he questions ending up there. Commented Apr 29, 2015 at 2:14
  • 44
    As I talk about here: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/291562/… , I believe the fundamental problem is in how triage is identifying these posts. Reviewers don't realize that all their "Should Be Improved" votes are invalidating close vote flags and sending all these posts into the Help and Improvement queue. Others are being dissuaded from voting "Unsalvageable" because of the menu of options that appears when you do so.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Apr 29, 2015 at 2:45
  • 13
    @BradLarson I couldn't agree more. I somehow missed that earlier question, and I didn't realize the Needs Improvement votes were nullifying close votes. The Triage queue is definitely the root of the problem, here.
    – elixenide
    Commented Apr 29, 2015 at 3:21
  • 3
    @BradLarson: A lot of that is, I think, the tedious menu in Unsalvageable. Why is that even a thing? Technical limitations (i.e., not wishing to add a new internal flag for the purpose of marking "Triaged as needing CVs badly"), or is that by design? Commented Apr 29, 2015 at 5:42
  • 12
    I've tried to use that queue many times and always rage-quit after skipping tons of garbage questions. I've never found a question I felt I could fix. My conclusion: ignore that queue.
    – ivarni
    Commented Apr 29, 2015 at 5:44
  • 3
    @ivarni Sadly, that's where I am right now, too. It's such a new queue, but it already has hundreds of items in it, and it just seems to be getting worse. Right now, I'd say it's doing more harm than good.
    – elixenide
    Commented Apr 29, 2015 at 5:47
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    Note that there is a "question is very low quality" link in the H&I queue.
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Apr 29, 2015 at 6:19
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    @jonrsharpe I had honestly never seen that. It's off to the side, unlike the other review actions, so I have always missed it. Maybe it should just be bumped up to join the other actions.
    – elixenide
    Commented Apr 29, 2015 at 11:58
  • 2
    Seems like one of the problems is that there's no way of handling the "needs a back and forth with the OP to clarify the question" scenario. After reading your question here and the answers to it, I proposed a suggestion on the H&I queue suggestions post. I think this suggestion helps that part of the problem, at least. Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 12:37
  • I have also made a similar suggestion. Totally agree meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/290862/…
    – Bob Tway
    Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 15:20
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    The third post you mentioned has an up vote?!?!?!?!? It's only code!!! There's not even one letter!!! 'Falls to the ground in shock' Aside from that drama, I think many people in Triage are more nervous to flag questions, with fears of having it declined, disputed, or something else (like fear of disturbing the mods - I don't know!). Generally, if I'm not sure, there's always the skip button. :)
    – Zizouz212
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 2:22

4 Answers 4

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We're working on this, mostly by first seeing what we can get out of tweaking what feeds the helper queue, which is triage. To that, the first thing we realized we needed to look at was what was feeding triage, because that determines the sampling of posts that establishes a baseline for could be improved (implied by should) and total junk.

The selection process for triage has a few basic components:

  • A machine-learning (ML) system that has been trained on known good / known bad (and a lot of it)
  • Signal we capture from very new accounts where we don't have much history to go on
  • A selection / scoring process based on your recent question history once you do have some history

The second item is what was lacking. The ML system comes up with two scores, a 'goodness' score and a 'badness' score. In way too many cases, these scores were just too close together in order to be meaningful - a pattern that we almost always saw with very new accounts. A lot of stuff wasn't going straight to triage that should have. We now watch, very carefully, what visitors from any given network do while posting. If someone originating from where you are couldn't even get a question to post despite trying to submit it five times, there's a very good chance that your question could benefit from at least a cursory glance by a reviewer. There's now about 15 different things that we trap and keep track of.

We're also vastly improving the flag dialog to make it less painful. While we wanted some friction in place for folks to say 'unsalvageable', what we had wasn't just too much; it was just a mess that we ignored for way too long.

I don't want to put another 'eject' button in the helper queue until and if we're absolutely positive that we have the triage and helper queues working together as best as they possibly can. Right now, you have the 'very low quality' link; use that when you see stuff that's just unsalvageable.

But it's not 'very low quality', it's just missing critical information

Don't worry about it, it'll just age out of the queue. If there's not already a comment letting the author know what's needed - add one, and move on.

Wait, that sounds like you agree that 'abandoned' questions are clutter?

Yes, and (if it comes to that), the next 'eject' button is going to be 'question is abandoned' which would kick it right to the close queue. At least 80% of the stuff I'd personally skip in the queue comes in the form of a question that can't be answered unless its author adds more detail. No amount of editing is going to help that, and they're nowhere to be found.

This would (conceivably) be set up to automatically add your close vote for 'unclear' as it leaves the helper queue and moves on to the close queue, but it wouldn't be available unless the post had been in the queue for a while. I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud.

I have to look at it some more. My point is (and I did have one before I got so horribly winded here) that it's not just a matter of adding more moderation tools in the queue if we really want to get this right. Adding them at this point would just obfuscate what's wrong, and I don't want to do that.

But, I do hear you, and we're working on it. We haven't lost reason or sensibility; it's just a more complicated problem than some might realize.

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  • 3
    This is helpful; thanks. I don't doubt that it's a very complicated problem; just glad to hear that y'all are on it!
    – elixenide
    Commented Apr 29, 2015 at 12:04
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    @EdCottrell Sorry to keep speaking in terms of 'might do' - we're moving pretty fast with this, which means the data is moving pretty fast, so ... but yes, we're pretty focused on it. The design is fantastic, there's just so many knobs to tweak, and we're making even more.
    – user50049
    Commented Apr 29, 2015 at 16:05
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    @TimPost, I think one of the problems here is that the triage queue does not ask reviewers to differentiate between questions that need author interaction and those that can be improved by the community. In my opinion this is a very important information. Interestingly there has been a discussion between Servy and Shog9` when triage was introduced. meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/278735/…. The weirdness of the help and improve queue is probably a consequence of the problem servy already pointed out back then.
    – cel
    Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 11:04
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    You know, perhaps we need to make both "should be improved" and "looks ok" multi-stage, with a verification pop-over which spells it out in more detail. Yes, I'm already starting to hate myself for proposing, but the problem is that unsalvagable has far more friction. Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 16:21
  • @Deduplicator: Or just remove the multi-stage dialog from Unsalvageable. Commented May 1, 2015 at 1:36
  • @NathanTuggy: Well, how do those hapless askers than get a hint what's wrong, and how they should proceed, should they decide to try? Commented May 1, 2015 at 13:49
  • @Deduplicator: Triage is unable to close a question on its own (3 votes max), and anyone from 500-3000 rep isn't even going to be CVing in it, just flagging. So: let the close queue determine what reason to use. Commented May 1, 2015 at 14:52
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    @TimPost Can you provide an update on this? I know that we now have flags in the H&I queue to indicate that a question in the queue should be closed, but even higher-rep users don't have the option to cast close votes from within the queue. I'm still finding that lots of the questions I run across are truly unsalvageable and should be closed, but I'm trying not to raise even more flags for the mods. (I end up just opening the question in a new tab and casting a CV.)
    – elixenide
    Commented Nov 23, 2015 at 1:51
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    I guess you're still "working" on this because H&I is still a cesspool of dog feces.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Nov 29, 2017 at 17:44
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    4 1/2 years later... This is still an issue.
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Sep 16, 2019 at 1:52
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Among the first remarks on triage was that questions that need actions from the authors do not really fit into the current triage system.

I would even go so far as to say that those are fundamentally different and it makes very little sense to try to create a single system that can handle both at the same time.

I feel that the current way is against the idea of triage: Hide questions from people until they are good and answerable.

At the moment we show those questions to reviewers who can't really do anything - Instead what we may want to do is:

  • Make sure that the author gets some kind of notice that editing is required
  • Give the author a reasonable amount of time to edit the question. Until then hide the question from both viewers and reviewers
  • If an edit was made, send the question back to triage
  • If there was no reaction after a reasonable amount of time, feed it into a closing queue.

For this workflow it is important that the triage reviewers already decide if the author has to fix the issues or if the community can do it instead.

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  • that... describes "unsalvagable". Posts the community bring up to par. Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 16:23
  • @Deduplicator, if I understood the idea of triage correctly it is not the goal to close everything that can be closed. Many of the questions in triage could be closed with unclear what you are asking right away. But it makes sense to give the author and the community the chance to improve it. If the question cannot be improved or simply was not, then and only then it should be closed in my opinion.
    – cel
    Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 16:50
  • sorry, dropped a "cannot" there. Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 16:52
  • 1
    @Deduplicator, oh now I got it. Nevertheless, I think it makes sense give authors a grace period where they can improve their question. What usually happens is that a unclear question quickly accumulates down votes by viewers. I think only by delaying the visibility of problematic questions for a short period as described above would already be a significant improvement.
    – cel
    Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 17:04
  • That doesn't explain why it shouldn't be closed by triage until the poster comes back, if he ever does, and tries to make it answerable, which might not succeed anyway. Remember the reopen-queue is nearly always empty. Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 17:13
  • @Deduplicator, closing usually goes hand in hand with down voting. From my experience people rather delete a heavily downvoted question instead of trying to improve it.
    – cel
    Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 17:30
  • Not if it's done from the triage queue, which does not have the option to vote on purpose. Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 17:32
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I suggest a very different, radical approach: throw "help and improvement" out of the window.

Today, I clicked through 10 to 20 entries from that queue.

All of them were not edit-able. I put all of them on "question is very low quality".

I wouldn't mind if the ratio of low quality questions is 3 in 10. But it seems that it is more like 90% ( which is the "gut" feeling" I accumulated over time ).

Rendering that queue, and the idea that people spent time looking at it utterly useless.

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    Or, in Triage, instead of "Requires Editing" which put the question in H&I for someone else to edit, put directly "Edit" so that the person in Triage edits it if it thinks it is edit-worthy. Better than pushing it down to someone else to edit it... when there is nothing to edit. So the person in Triage takes the responsability to edit it, or just does not click on Edit. Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 21:32
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I can recommend the following work flow when you encountering a question that you think should be closed:

  1. Press Ctrl and click on the question's title
  2. Press Skip if you cannot see anything that can be improved, Edit otherwise.

Then after you have done your 20 reviews in the H&I queue, work over the open TABs of your browser taking appropriate close action (and down vote if the question is unclear and you skipped).

Please note that I am of the opinion that there are many questions that need improvement and should be put on hold. Leaving spelling/grammar errors in a post, not deleting chit-chat (Thanks, greetings, name) as well as non-programming related questions Yes/No (e.g. anything starting with "Can someone ...") misses out on an opportunity for the question poster to be educated about posting appropriate questions. That makes it less likely that a question that the OP edits for reopening makes it through the Reopen review queue and less likely that other, future posts, are of higher quality.

Having done quite a few of the Help & Improvement edits, I agree that additional options would be nice to have, but they are not essential. It is far more important that the bug gets fixed where you have only the Edit button (and no Skip when you reviewed 20 questions)

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  • You describe basically my workflow but this is tiresome and could be simplified if you add "Recommed Deletion" button in H&I as you have it in Triage. Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 21:34

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