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While doing my chores, I came across this audit and, as you can see, I failed. I don't fail them very often at all because they are usually so obvious so I'm not crying about my privileges possibly getting revoked. I just think it should be brought to the communities attention because I have had several bad fails (not just in my opinion but through a consensus from meta and chat).

I filter my CVQ by , , and select all but dupes. This question was tagged with neither but I voted to close anyway because I thought it should be. IMHO, this question could be closed for several reasons (too broad, opinion-based, belongs on another site). I do think it's a good question, just not for SO. There also is no code for what the OP tried which may or may not have been helpful.

I have reason to believe that C++ers might be more lenient on things like this. So, if that is the consensus then ok but the system wouldn't know that. I guess what I'm going for here is...

  1. should the linked post be closed and if not then why so I can do better next time?
  2. Was it a system failure or a codeMagic failure?
  3. If #2 is system failure then is there a way to tweak the system to catch this?

I do understand that the system can't be perfect and I'm ok with that. I just wanted to bring this up in case it could help at all or maybe I can learn if I was wrong.

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    It's not a good audit for sure, but it's not an obvious close either. I put the last VTC in because to me the answers made it evident that "too broad" and "opinion based" (both on 2 votes each) fit pretty well - everyone is giving a new solution, is any more right than the others?
    – OGHaza
    Commented May 20, 2014 at 20:42
  • 1
    @OGHaza: that is what has been happening on SO for ages. There are different solutions for on-topic questions, and the OP selects, the community judges. I really cannot see what is new here. Commented May 20, 2014 at 20:45
  • @artlessnoise the tags weren't necessarily the problem. I can seen inside the audit what it is tagged with. The problem is it seemed a lot more "obvious" as a question which should be closed so to fail on it seems completely wrong. My #3 was more of what I was after than anything.
    – codeMagic
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 16:55
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    Tracking the audit questions that get high failures would be useful. If a particular question is presented 40x as a review and over 50% of the people fail, then something is wrong. I would guess the average failure rate is something like 10%. Commented May 21, 2014 at 16:57
  • 1
    I think that's a perfectly fine audit question. That is a perfectly acceptable question; it's a programming question (how do I implement X algorithm). Lots of questions here have multiple possible answers; that's what the voting arrows are for. The answers aren't opinions, so it's a fine question. You failed the audit because you're wrong about what constitutes an opinion-based question.
    – Joe
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 19:04
  • @artlessnoise that could be a good idea. That is the direction I was going with on this post but I'm not sure I made it real clear.
    – codeMagic
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:16
  • @Joe maybe not opinion-based but I would say too broad. I gave 3 reasons which I thought were possibilities (which is sometimes more subjective than we want them to be). That is part of why I posted, so if I was wrong I could learn. But, so far, the consensus seems to be that I got this one correct (it happens).
    – codeMagic
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:19
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    The highest rated answer is that you're wrong, so I hardly think there's a consensus. It's not too broad. It's a specific discussion of an algorithm. I can't see how this would be anything but a good question.
    – Joe
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:26
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    @Joe there are only 2 answers. The post received 13 upvotes (so far) and the question was closed by 4 other people so I'm not sure that's an indicator of anything. Also, I've asked in chat rooms and others that may or may not have voiced their opinion here have agreed. I think it's a fine question; I just don't believe it is a real good fit for SO.
    – codeMagic
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:29
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    The question was then reopened fairly quickly, if you didn't happen to notice...
    – Joe
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:30
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    @Joe it also was edited to make it a little more clear how the OP wanted a better way. But typically a question like "This is what I did but can I do it better?" is rather broad for SO.
    – codeMagic
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:34
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    It is not about whether this is a good/bad question. Surely, it is contentious. Therefore it is a bad audit candidate. Anything that illicit a close/re-open should not be used for a close review audits (although this has now happened after the fact). A close audit should be obviously good or bad question; how to structure/code this to make review audits better would be the point of this question, I believe. Commented May 21, 2014 at 22:27
  • @artlessnoise exactly. Again, I apparently didn't make that point very clear (maybe because of the title) but that is the type of discussion I was hoping to start. You must be special though because you caught it.
    – codeMagic
    Commented May 22, 2014 at 0:35
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    @Moderators, My question is again closed. Can it be locked from closing, because it is a valid question?
    – cppcoder
    Commented May 22, 2014 at 16:24
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    I find it unfortunate that people without C++/algorithm track record closed it this time as well as last time. On the contrary, the C++ and algorithm community has upvoted it before and submitted answers. After this meta discussion, some people outside the area in question decide to close it. It is not good. Unfortunately, I see this a repeating pattern emanating from meta. Some people complain and some track record free people take actions in an area. This makes me feel sorrow. Commented May 22, 2014 at 19:18

3 Answers 3

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The OP seems to be asking about a better algorithm, and he explained what he has tried. This is an interesting question for people who like dealing with algorithms, hence the upvotes, I assume.

I would not have personally voted for closure here because it is a valid algorithm question, albeit the C++ tag can be misleading, I hear you. I would have asked in a comment why that is added if it is just about the algorithm.

If discussing pure algorithms is off-topic on SO, then I can understand the migration to math or any more dedicated subsite.

Based on the edit, some people thought "better" is not that obvious in algorithm improvement context, so I made a quick edit about performance, complexity and so on leaving a comment on the edit to the OP so that he can specify it even further. This should also be more specific even for laymans. The OP can override my help either way.

One might claim that the question is against the help center with this:

avoid asking for opinions or open-ended discussion

I think algorithm improvement, as a technical measure for complexity, memory usage, etc is not open ended, nor subjective, so I think that is not a valid quote from the help center. I believe it is not making it too broad either if an interesting question has more than one solution as one might claim it.

(by the way, I find it strange that it got 7 votes and lately 3 downvotes after some people complaining about failed audit. It would probably have been more fair and considerate to give some time to the discussion before hurrying with the downvotes in a row)

Disclaimer: I am a frequent C++/Qt contributor lately.

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    I would have voted to close as opinion based because he is asking for peoples opinion for a better way to answer it. He said at the end of the question: Is there any better way by which this can be achieved?
    – Howli
    Commented May 20, 2014 at 20:13
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    @Howlin: algorithm complexity has not much to do with personal opinion IMHO. It is an objective measure which can be modeled without equivocation. Commented May 20, 2014 at 20:15
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    At which point it might become rather Code-Golf-y
    – Bart
    Commented May 20, 2014 at 20:16
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    The question doesn't say anything about complexity. It asks "Is there any better way" which is pretty subjective. The help center specifically says "avoid asking for opinions or open-ended discussion".
    – nobody
    Commented May 20, 2014 at 20:24
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    I have no clue what else better could mean in this context, but this is fixed now in the question anyway. The complexity is made explicit now. It took me a couple of seconds to fix it... Commented May 20, 2014 at 20:25
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    Faster is just trading off memory usage vs. CPU usage. One is not intrinsically better than the other, and the OP didn't specify.
    – nobody
    Commented May 20, 2014 at 20:29
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    @LaszloPapp The way you edited the question makes the OP naively correlate algorithmic complexity with performance. Algorithmic complexity is useful to reason about algorithms but practice shows that better algorithmic complexity does not always translate to better performance. A few months back I traded a O(1) algorithm in favor of a O(n) one, because when actually profiled, the O(n) one performed better.
    – Louis
    Commented May 20, 2014 at 20:40
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    @Louis: I do not think corner case drives the rules for the majority. It is like saying in C++: "do not use smart pointers" because very rarely, they do not make sense. Commented May 20, 2014 at 20:42
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    I have the experience to know that there are many different ways to make improvements, and that's exactly why this question is too broad - the OP didn't specify how they want to make it better. And I haven't touched the linked question (upvote, downvote, closevote, or edit). Only discussed it here.
    – nobody
    Commented May 20, 2014 at 20:43
  • @AndrewMedico: I appreciate not standing in the downvote/closure queue for the duration of the discussion. Either way, I still do not understand why something is too broad just because it has more than one approach. This is not going against the help center in any way either. This is not subjective opinion to improve an algorithm, but objective measure. It is not open embedded either. I think you are wrongly trying to turn the help center against the question. Commented May 20, 2014 at 20:49
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If you disagree with an audit, downvote the question and/or vote to close it. It will remove the question from possible review audits for other users, IIRC.

Or, if you feel like cheating, just always open the question from the audit in a new tab...

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    This is all true but not what the point of my post was. I know how to handle these and I've come across several bad audits. I was hoping to start a discussion about if there is a way to handle these.
    – codeMagic
    Commented May 22, 2014 at 0:38
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    While as it seems it misses the point the OP is asking for, I am worried that you are also discussing cheating. Commented May 22, 2014 at 4:17
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    +1 for expressing you cheat. That is perspective; it shows how bad the audits are. I doubt you open in another tab for every close review. I think the audits are so bad, you get a feel that something crazy is going on and open it in another tab. What is a close audit trying to achieve? Certainly the cheat isn't something that someone who just clicks 'close' for every question would do. My normal workflow is to look at the close reasons; but that (at least at some point automatically fails a review). I think you cheat because something is br0ken. Commented May 22, 2014 at 15:19
-1

I would have voted to close as "too broad". (update: in hindsight, that seems to be the wrong opinion)

If we don't allow "show me the codez", and we don't allow "how do I do push notifications on Android?", then where do we draw the line on algorithms like this one?

Looks remarkably like a homework question, which I have been led to believe, we don't allow here either. (update: we do allow homework questions)

So I guess I agree with OP.


Update 1:

I've just been shocked to learn there is an "algorithm" tag!? Guess that's my new thing to learn for today.

So we allow opinion based algorithm questions it seems.


Update 2:

As expected, I and OP are taking a lot of flak on this one, but that's why I aired my beliefs in my answer. I wanted to see how they hold up in the community and learn. Has been useful to say the least. Nice that meta allows that freedom.

However I'm still wondering where the line is between things like :

  • How can I sort these numbers better than my insert sort?
  • How do I make the Fibonacci sequence in java?
  • How do I reverse a string without external libraries?
  • How do I replace some duplicate characters without external libraries?

I am starting to believe that the last 2 are acceptable and good questions for our site, which yesterday I would have CV'd straight away.

I think the first 2 are still unacceptable, but by the criteria given around this post, I'm not sure I know what reason I can use to CV them.

I will have to check out the algorithm tag a bit (sorry @Dukeling, have to learn somehow) and find out more about what "we" accept along these lines.


I'm going to leave this disliked answer up, because I think it & the comments tell a useful story to people who (like me, OP etc) had/have a different view to the community.

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    The OP provided the algorithm he used, and asked if there was a way to improve it. That's not gimme the codez.
    – Joe
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:28
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    No, I was trying to illustrate a spectrum of non-specific types of questions, ranging from gimme-codez, through how-to-do-general-thing to algorithms. I try to only post very specific questions, but have learnt algorithms have a place on our site. Nice to know, even tho it surprised me Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:31
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    We do allow homework questions. Like any question, they are still valid as long as they are applicable to more than just the OP, and outline what has already been tried and what still doesn't work. We did get rid of the homework tag, because not only was it subjective, it didn't really help (and would even be detrimental to) the quality of any answers.
    – Hannele
    Commented May 22, 2014 at 0:15
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    -1 for being shocked to learn that there is an algorithm tag (on a programming site...) ... and calling most / all algorithm questions opinion based ... and saying homework is not allowed (period) ... and saying this is too broad ... and not seeing sufficient difference between "show me the codez" and this. Please stay far, far away from the algorithm tag. Commented May 22, 2014 at 2:32
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    @Dukeling "stay far, far away from the algorithm tag" - I will choose to take that as tongue in cheek, based on many other contributions from you that I have read in the past. Commented May 22, 2014 at 5:14
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    I am also surprised that someone would not think about algorithm questions on a programming site. That is one of the tags I really like following and learn from others. Commented May 22, 2014 at 17:11
  • @laszlopapp yupp, see I learnt about a new side to this site that I can consider contributing to. Still wondering where to draw the line tho, cos algorithms are just ways of doing something, kind of like the "how do I do xxx in yyy" type questions that get closed as being too broad. But that's why I have to look at your guys' fave tag. Commented May 22, 2014 at 19:12
  • Richard, if this is the first time you're learning that algorithm questions are on-topic, you must have missed this whole debacle. :-)
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 23, 2014 at 0:22
  • @CodyGray thx for the good read. I see there's a lot of contention about what level of algorithm is on topic here. Seems even questions with no research effort are allowed with algorithm tags (according to one of the answers there) Commented May 23, 2014 at 6:16

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