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Sometimes, it's like nails on a chalkboard to me when Not reproducible or was caused by a typo is misused on questions that actually lack a reproducible example. It's even frustrating when others use this incorrect close-reason after I've used the IMO correct one, unintentionally making me part of a misery when the majority opts for the wrong close-reason 1, 2, 3<-.

In my understanding, the purpose of the close template is clearly explained in the selection dialog (if you're willing to read the small print). Namely, it suggests the question was resolved, for example, in comments.

enter image description here

Askers get confused because they receive a message that their question has been resolved, which is obviously not the case.

enter image description here

Such questions should correctly be closed for Needs debugging details 4, 5, 6,

enter image description here

where askers would receive the the appropriate guidance.

enter image description here

Selecting the correct close-reason isn't extra effort since it's right above. Even less effort would be selecting Needs details or clarity from the first page, which would be far better in such cases.

What can we do?

Flagging gets declined, because "flags should only be used to make moderators aware of content that requires their intervention". Intervention might mean commenting, "Your question may have been closed for an incorrect reason. Try to edit it anyway and vote for Reopen", but I feel that's more of a moderators' job.

Maybe a slight rewording of the template might help,

enter image description here

I'm not a communications expert, though.

I appreciate any advice. I've tried to ignore it, but it's more of a pattern and not an isolated incident and should be discussed.

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    I agree it's annoying and persistent behaviour. Users seem to equate "there isn't a reproducible example" (the "Lacks debugging details" close reason) as "cannot reproduce" (a completely different close reason). With that said, I've never found a good reason to correct this closure. The questions are usually so lazy, it doesn't matter too much what they are closed with. It's extremely rare that they are revised anyway. I just vote to close as lacking debugging details and hope for the best. Any more is a waste of effort, IMO.
    – VLAZ
    Commented May 20 at 7:41
  • 8
    In general, there is very low interest in fixing close reasons, largely since there are quite few cases where it can be done reasonably easily. (One example of an easy fix: if you have gold-badge privileges and find some ancient question that was closed as a duplicate under the old system that added boilerplate text to the question, and you were not one of the original close-voters, you can open and re-close it - sometimes with a better dupe target - and then edit the boilerplate out.) Commented May 20 at 7:51
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    Related: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/208756 Commented May 20 at 8:06
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    @VLAZ Yeah, that's how I usually do anyway and close-vote for debugging details. We are aware of this, I hoped discussing could raise more awareness. I agree that sometimes any close-reason will do as long as it is closed. However, I've deliberately chosen examples where new askers have obviously taken offense and we've scared them off (3). If we leave it at that, and just hope for the best, we would approve of such consequences.
    – jay.sf
    Commented May 20 at 8:23
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    @KarlKnechtel I like closing as a dupe if applicable. Thanks for your link, which suggests flagging, though, but flags on this are declined.
    – jay.sf
    Commented May 20 at 8:27
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    I wish SE had culture/tooling matching that of Wikipedia:Be bold that allowed trusted users to just fix things. If mistakes are made, other users can just revert them.
    – pkamb
    Commented May 20 at 19:10
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    Stack Overflow used to list all the different close reasons that voters selected (along with which users selected each reason, visible to those with CV privileges). This was clear, accurate, and useful information, so naturally it got removed and replaced with this current version...
    – TylerH
    Commented May 20 at 20:28
  • @pkamb That doesn't work on a site like SO because edits bump posts to the front page, which is designed to be a list of posts. Wikipedia does not have such a design for their front page. Aside from that, there are far fewer people reviewing edits here than there are on Wikipedia, but I suspect no less number of would-be miscreants or even people who mean well but make misguided edits. That aside, the issue of suggested edits is totally irrelevant to this Q&A.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 20 at 20:30
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    @TylerH that hasn't been an issue for SO since immemorial. The "home page" has been personalized and randomized for everyone since years ago. It's called "interesting" now. I could edit 10k posts in a minute and would be surprised if you see any of it.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 20 at 23:14
  • @Braiam Depends on how you access the "home page". For me the home page is all questions.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 21 at 13:13
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    I don't understand why you think closing as a typo wouldn't be appropriate for stackoverflow.com/questions/78375745/… It has example code that didn't have quotes around the date string so the YYYY-MM-DD date was treated as a subtraction problem. Someone commented about the missing quotes. It seems to me very unlikely that somebody else would have the same problem. Even if they did have the same problem, I don't think they could find the duplicate using search. Commented May 21 at 13:17
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    @StephenOstermiller Good catch, thanks. Replaced it and clarified that these refer to closed with correct close-reason.
    – jay.sf
    Commented May 21 at 13:56
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    @StephenOstermiller forgetting quotes seems like a VERY reproducible "typo" to me, and thus a valuable question for SO. Especially with the error messages quoted for future SEO.
    – pkamb
    Commented May 21 at 17:54
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    @pkamb The error is described as "my date of November 5, 2019 being evaluated as June 27, 1975" which seems specific to the exact date used without quotes. As I said, hard to search for. Commented May 21 at 19:15
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    @StephenOstermiller I've seen that mistake dozens of times. But I also generally close these as typos, just like when people mistakenly use = instead of ==. I know they're not strictly typos, they're "understandos". But they're too trivial to treat as real questions, because no amount of searching will find similar mistakes (the searchers don't even realize that's the problem).
    – Barmar
    Commented May 22 at 21:19

4 Answers 4

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Post a comment with the actual reason instead. Don't even try to mention the close reason, just say what the issues are with the question and how the asker could address them. The close reason is just a helpful comment at best; it tries to generally explain the most common issues that many questions have, so naturally, there would be edge cases where the reason doesn't fit precisely.

Rather than creating work for everyone else, post a comment that would help the asker to fix their question instead, since you believe that the close reason would fail at that.

If it's not clear, you need to craft this message by hand. Don't copy the preexisting close reason; instead, give actionable and clear guidance on how to fix the question.

4
  • Well, it's a comment. Whether the close reason is a helpful comment is up for debate. I would argue it only is when it isn't interpreted as a cigarette burn mark. All the more reason to post that comment explaining what should be improved. Which unfortunately, needs to be written with kid gloves made out of the softest, most gentle material.
    – Gimby
    Commented May 21 at 10:03
  • I agree, a comment would be a good solution. I often do that anyways to clarify exactly what I expect to be edited into a question. Commented May 22 at 8:47
  • Downside is if you're paranoid of revenge downvotes, since leaving a comment makes it clear you're likely one of the people who downvoted.
    – M. Justin
    Commented May 22 at 16:36
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    @M.Justin: Most of the people who ask these questions don't yet have downvoting privileges, so they won't "revenge downvote". I've not encountered much revenge downvoting at all, but maybe I'm lucky or work in tags with a more mature audience. If your comment is polite, constructive and neutrally expressed, there's no reason to expect revenge voting. Commented May 22 at 20:22
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While I admit that the wording of the close reason isn't perfect, I consider this the appropriate close reason for a number of minor syntax errors, including:

  • Writing if (variable = value) when it should use == or ===.
  • Omitting quotes when needed (e.g. around dates in SQL).
  • Forgetting to put () after the function name when intending to call the function.

Sometimes there are useful duplicates, such as What are the differences between single and double quotes in Bash? and I'll use them. But even though there are available duplicates for the difference between = and ==, I usually won't use that dupe reason for the above if question. These questions serve little permanent benefit, since someone with the same problem will virtually never find it in a search, so we're better off closing them as typos and letting the Hoover delete them. So I just post a comment like "file.close should be file.close() to call the function" and VTC.

On the other hand, despite the fact that the text says "not reproducible", I rarely use this close vote simply because I'm unable to reproduce the OP's problem. This usually means they left a relevant detail out of the question, or they didn't copy the code correctly, and I prefer to work out what's missing using comments.

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    I want to note that in cases like this, it often makes sense to (at least) add a comment saying what the "typo" is.
    – dan1st
    Commented May 23 at 7:15
  • Oh, of course! I considered that obvious.
    – Barmar
    Commented May 23 at 15:37
5

Let's involve moderators for these cases. That is what they are for. That they currently decline these flags is due to misguided past policy and we're here to draft a new, better policy for the community that the moderators then have to stick to.

I'm in favor of getting correct guidance to OPs, so they can do The Right Thing™ to fix their question. A closed question with a wrong close notice attached to it is doing harm to the community and to the quality of the knowledge base we build here. We need potential answerable questions correctly fixed by the OP.

Here is my draft policy:

When a question is closed with a close notice that doesn't contain the correct guidance for the OP to salvage an otherwise salvageable question, a moderator flag should be raised.
In the flag you ask the moderator the replace the current close notice with the correct one. (aka: This question was closed as Typo but should be closed as Needs detail. Please swap the close notice).

That flag should be marked helpful (assuming the moderator agrees). A moderator should not decline the flag with flags should only be used to make moderators aware of content that requires their intervention, because we can't replace the close notice. It requires three users with reopen votes and then three users with close votes again to swap the notice. We used to offer that in SOCVR, but we stopped doing that because such a waste of votes that could be used elsewhere. A moderator can unilaterally open and then close the question again. If that annoys them enough under their current workload, smart userscripts will appear or even a feature request to get close notice swapping implemented by SE.

We have so much high hopes for better onboarding and curation tools and guidance, but if we fail to use the current tools correctly and our moderators don't help us rectifying obvious mistakes, we can as well close the site down.

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    I would be interested to hear from moderators what the impact on their workload would be.
    – D.W.
    Commented May 20 at 16:34
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    Just based on some very rough estimates of the number of questions closed, and especially questions where multiple close reasons apply and which to pick is a grey area, it would likely be a significant number of flags. I can't comment on how manageable it would be in practice though, because the current policy is to decline these flags, so I don't really have a frame of reference. I would estimate a not insignificant impact though Commented May 20 at 16:56
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    As much as it would be nice to give users better guidance, those problems are almost universally better solved at the level of the site software. Moderators are already overworked, to say nothing of volunteer curation. If I could stop time and fix all the old duplicate links and closures unilaterally as I see fit, it would likely take me centuries. Commented May 20 at 17:30
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    One problem with this proposal is that we often can't tell if a no-MRE closure would be correct. Often, the question has a bunch of code, but someone claims it's not enough. It often requires subject-matter expertise to know what is actually enough to understand the issue.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 20 at 19:54
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    It is, however, generally pretty straightforward to determine if the typo close reason is being misused. If we had some way of identifying users with a habit of misusing that close reason, that would probably warrant a mod message.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 20 at 19:56
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    "We used to offer that in SOCVR, but we stopped doing that because such a waste of votes that could be used elsewhere" - but you think wasting mod time for this is a good idea? I'll have to disagree on this one.
    – l4mpi
    Commented May 22 at 8:28
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    @l4mpi yes, I'm much better at wasting the time of others than my own.
    – rene
    Commented May 22 at 8:31
3

As already discussed in the comments and other answers, there's generally little interest in fixing close reasons on questions that clearly should remain closed, in large part because there isn't a streamlined process for it. So in this answer I want to tackle the other aspect of the problem here: is the "typo or no longer reproducible" close reason being misused?

How-to questions vs. "debugging" questions

I've said a few times that debugging questions aren't really on topic for Stack Overflow - because by the time the necessary work has been done to bring the question up to standard, there isn't really anything to "debug" any more. However, others don't seem to like my implied definitions.

What I think we can agree on is that the underlying question in those cases is typically a "why" question - and in these cases, of course, a proper minimal reproducible example is necessary. Before we can explain why a system (the code, being executed on some machine) has a particular behaviour (an error message or wrong output), we need to know what that behaviour actually is, and we need to know how to reproduce it reliably (not just to study it, but to exemplify the problem so that future searchers can identify it). And it would, indeed, be wrong to say that something can't be reproduced simply because the OP hasn't reproduced it and shown that reproduction; you have a good point there.

However, the first two examples you've provided really don't fit into that category. They're clearly asking how to do something. In these cases, we don't want a "minimal reproducible example", because there is nothing to reproduce. Rather, it's the answers that require reproducibility.

A "minimal reproducible example", for our purposes, is code. Trying to add code (such as a failed attempt) to such questions misunderstands the goal of the site and of its (I'm going to use the word) gatekeeping. The goal is not to ensure that people who ask a question "have tried" something, because we don't require that - just like we don't require that the OP doesn't know, nor needs to know, an answer to the question being asked.

Rather, the goal is to ensure that the question is clear. For a how-to question, that means coming up with a proper specification for the task, so that we can properly test a candidate answer and know whether it's correct. It should be naturally and automatically clear what the right answer is for some simply stated, but relatively difficult cases, so that anything that makes the question non-trivial is properly exposed. As such, when information is missing, it's not a "debugging detail" that's missing, but a general detail. Such questions should be closed as Needs details or clarity instead.

When a trivial error isn't a typo

Beginners have "unknown unknowns", almost by definition. They don't necessarily have any transferable experience they can apply to the problem; so the rules about how a programming language works, may well seem entirely arbitrary. Many languages in common use, for example, use the = symbol to indicate an assignment statement. In generic parlance (not necessarily proper CS terminology), it's a command; something imperative or causative; like a speech act. It's not used this way in other contexts; for example, mathematicians use = to assert the equality of two quantities, not to cause it. Programming languages often invent == to verify that equality - something much closer in meaning, and a symbol not really used by anyone else.

On the other hand, people who have spent a decade or more writing code in such languages, will gradually forget about the arbitrary nature of these symbols, and the fact that someone else's intuition could easily be misleading. If you use one such language, you can transfer that experience to another such language, of course. (In fact, it will be difficult not to.) To the experienced programmer, that is, the beginner's "unknown unknown" becomes an unthinkable unknown: with that lost perspective, it's no longer possible to contemplate what it's like not knowing such a thing.

All of this is to say: just because the code says = and should say == doesn't mean that the author of the code made a typographical error. Someone who doesn't understand that = is for assignment and == is for equality comparison (in whichever hypothetical language) should be pointed at a canonical explanation of that fact. (And, indeed, for languages where == isn't for equality comparison, we might actually have such Q&A already. Not to mention the === case.)

And, of course, there are any number of other possible analogous cases. Who's to say that OP genuinely thought quotes shouldn't be necessary around a date in SQL? Or that two provided quote types would be interchangeable in Bash, the way that they are in Python? Or that both would be provided in the JSON data format when they actually aren't? How about expecting that empty () shouldn't be necessary after a function name, since there's nothing being provided there? All of those are eminently reasonable suppositions if you don't already know otherwise.

And, sure, someone who has such a problem almost certainly has an unknown unknown, and thus won't be able to search for a canonical. But others can search for that canonical - or even set it up for quick personal reference - and direct people there rather than putting in the effort for a more detailed, individualized communication. In all of these cases, there's an actual concept that merits explanation, and thus the canonical does in fact have value. Please use it.

When a clearly reproducible problem is still a "typo"

Sometimes people put considerable deliberate effort into typing out some code, but still manage to produce something completely wrong in what should be a fairly obvious way. Ideally, we'd be able to handle the question while being completely agnostic to the mindset of the author of the code. However, sometimes that seems to be difficult or impossible.

In some of these cases the code is just a complete mess. There's simply no way that an experienced programmer could glean the thought process behind it - it comes across as code written simply to have some code written (that "meriting an answer" problem from above). Or the OP seems to think the code means something radically different from what it actually means, but an experienced reader would have no idea what that intended meaning actually is. Or the OP correctly writes code to implement some algorithm, but there's no reason to expect that algorithm to solve the problem, and no obvious reason why someone would think it would.

In those cases, the question can be simply considered unclear and closed as such.

But a much more common case, in my experience, is the idiosyncratic logical error. Which is to say, for one possible example out of many: the OP seems to think that a particular part of the code should execute repeatedly, but it should actually execute only once in a proper implementation of the algorithm (or, for that matter, the other way around). If, upon this being pointed out, the OP clearly sees the simple logical oversight, that's essentially a typo. It directly matches the description and purpose of the close reason: "While similar questions may be on-topic here, this one was resolved in a way less likely to help future readers".

As a hint: one of those "similar on-topic" questions, extending the example, might be "How do I control which code is inside or outside of a loop in X language?" (and we actually have very similar questions in some cases), or "Why does resetting X=0 inside a loop prevent using X to count iterations?". Judging by how common these sorts of posts seem to be, it really comes across to me that some beginners might genuinely not understand those things - and would benefit from being routed to a canonical explanation of the topic, even if they'd never be able to search for it themselves.

But if the OP wasn't actually asking anything like that, in any meaningful sense, then the question likely won't be a useful signpost.

(If there isn't such a canonical yet, please feel free to write one. But if the people who will need to see it, are going to have an unknown unknown, keep that in mind - and phrase the question so that it can be found by curators and experts, but understandable by beginners.)

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