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I wrote a question-and-answer-post. Another user edited my question. I don't agree with the changes. I would describe the dissent as being about style. I rolled back the edit. The user edited the question again, reintroducing the changes I had rolled back.

I do not want to escalate this into an edit war. In an attempt to deescalate, I tried to contact the user. First, I added a comment under one of their posts, inviting them to a chat. The comment has been deleted - which I fully understand, because the comment does not really belong there. I then created a dedicated chatroom for the user and me, inviting them to talk about the dissent. After 7 days, I didn't get a reaction.

How can I resolve this? Can I decide on the content of my post, or do I have to accept the user's decision? I would like to be able to decide on the style of my post myself, but I am not sure how to proceed here. If the consensus is that the ownership of posts eventually is not in my hands, I will accept that.

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    First of all: you can @-mention a user that edited a post in a comment, it just won't auto-complete but if you type @karlknechtel they will get an inbox message. No need to stalk users on other posts. Second: There is no requirement that user respond to pings/invites. Most often it is better to refrain given what gets thrown at you.
    – rene
    Commented Feb 19 at 11:17
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    It would be useful if you mention the specific parts of their edits that you disagree with, its quite confusing since at first you rolled back to revision 11, then 12 and then back to 10. Commented Feb 19 at 11:17
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    I've read the shorter version and I see no loss of clarity or meaning in it. Seems to be more concise by omitting what seems to be irrelevant information (lazy/short-circuiting should be clear enough. And if not, there are links to clarify).
    – VLAZ
    Commented Feb 19 at 11:18
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    Karl has a good and rather massive track record of editing questions into shape for curation purposes. Sometimes what you wanted to ask or particularly emphasize is different from what makes sense to make the question+answer suitable as a canonical for similar questions. I haven't spent time on assessing the edits to understand whether that's the case here, though.
    – tripleee
    Commented Feb 19 at 11:51
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    @AbdulAzizBarkat I made two edits back to back, and OP seems to have stumbled in the process of trying to roll them both back. I get the impression that the entire change-set was objected to, since otherwise it would have made more sense to do a manual re-edit. Commented Feb 19 at 12:23
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    The editor was right. Your rolebacks returned the post to a worst state. You licensed the code to SE and wanting to maintain it containing errors is incorrect on your part. You also made some noob mistakes (since you're a moderator on another site) like including tagged keywords in the title and then reverting their removal, etc...
    – bad_coder
    Commented Feb 19 at 15:56
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    "I would like to be able to decide on the style of my post myself" -> this is the problem. Wanting to use Stack Overflow as you please is pretty much self-sabotage. It becomes a matter of when that catches up to you, not if.
    – Gimby
    Commented Feb 20 at 9:32

2 Answers 2

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Sorry about the communications breakdown up until now.

The user edited the question again, reintroducing the changes I had rolled back.

In fact, I simply rolled back your rollback.

As a hint for the rollback interface: you can roll back multiple revisions at once. Each prior revision has its own "Rollback" link, meaning "restore the post to how it was as of this edit". I notice in the post history that you initially struggled with this a bit. (I made my original changes in two separate edits - one for the post body and one for the title.)

I then created a dedicated chatroom for the user and me, inviting them to talk about the dissent. After 7 days, I didn't get a reaction.

I definitely did reply to you. I think what must have happened is that I replied in the chat created for your first comment, and then overlooked the invitation to the dedicated (separate) room.

At any rate, I've been relatively busy lately. Time zones (and individual sleep schedules) can also cause problems in this sort of situation, generally speaking.

It is always appropriate, IMO, to take the matter here directly. Please use the tag (it has been added for you here already).

As you've seen, there is no DM system, but you can invite users to chat directly. More generally, consider commenting on the question itself and @-ing the user who made the edit(s). To my understanding, this should work, and it may allow for a quick explanation that doesn't require going in to chat.

Can I decide on the content of my post, or do I have to accept the user's decision?

Editing questions and answers on Stack Overflow is a collaborative process, like on Wikipedia. Users with at least 2000 reputation are privileged to make such edits unilaterally, and to roll back edits unilaterally; and everyone else can propose edits that are put in a queue for consideration.

In principle, therefore, everyone has a say in the editing of posts, including the author. However, authors do not "own" the content here; it is licensed irrevocably to the site under a permissive Creative Commons license, which enables those edits.

We do want to avoid going around in circles on matters of style, and there has historically been a ton of discussion on Meta about what kinds of style edits are appropriate and what variation in style is acceptable. But in general, an author whose post is edited can expect to be out-voted - especially when the edit has a basis in policy. In short, these changes were not simply about "style", but about the site's goals for clarity, focus, precision and overall quality.

In this case, my primary goal was to remove "noise" from the post, by describing concepts directly (using the appropriate jargon) and avoiding unnecessary "introductory" phrases such as "So, the question is:". I also eliminated or minimized some explanations for related concepts by linking to the corresponding related Q&A on the site. For example, I took out the REPL example using or because it's simply demonstrating the concept of short-circuiting, which is well covered elsewhere. The edited version now fits neatly on my screen, which is a nice property for questions.

Then I gave the question a longer, more descriptive title: I made it an actual question (with a question mark and everything), and replaced the term "lazy evaluation" with a more concrete description. The goal is to make the question more recognizable and more searchable. Hopefully this way, people who need this information have a better chance of finding it with a search engine; people who click through to it from a search page (either on Stack Overflow or from external search) will take less time to verify that it's the question they're trying to answer; and other curators will be able to close duplicates more quickly and more accurately. This edit also improves visibility for some related questions (and I made similar changes elsewhere to promote this one appropriately).


In fact, I think this self-answered Q&A of yours was already quite good by the standards of the site, and very useful - I've used it to close other duplicates several times. As someone who wears a "curator" hat around here, I want to make questions like this even better - as good as they can be - and make it clear to others that this is the right duplicate target to use when someone else asks the same question.

Like it says in the tour:

Our goal is to have the best answers to every question, so if you see questions or answers that can be improved, you can edit them.

We close duplicates so that the best answers can all be in one place. Once we've chosen that place, we should be focused on quality.

So I'd like to invite you to take it as a compliment when someone cares enough about your already-well-received self-answered Q&A to try to make it even better.

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    Thanks for the response! It helps me a lot understanding the principles behind the edit and also accept it. Commented Feb 19 at 12:28
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    I'm not sure if I should write it in the answer directly, but I could also say that when an OP simply rolls back an edit without preemptively stating any reasoning in a comment etc., that tends to create the impression that OP is misguidedly claiming "ownership" of the content or feels entitled to reject changes without needing a reason. I can see (if not originally, then certainly now) that that isn't the case here, but. Commented Feb 19 at 12:32
  • Also, as it happens, I don't particularly like being reminded of that answer of mine. I'd delete it if it didn't have hundreds of upvotes (with the potential of the system automatically getting mad at me if I destroyed such "valuable" content), and I've been trying to get the question deleted (even after extensive editing, it's blatantly two questions in one, both of which have better separate versions). Commented Feb 19 at 12:35
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    I only edit another user's answer (or question, for that matter) in rare cases: When they contain wrong information, possibly a typo, or are somehow very badly written but still valuable. I leave a comment, explain what I did and say "hope that was OK, if not, simply revert". In this case, such a comment would have made this entire conversation unnecessary. In fact, I find it plain rude to edit other people's answers without comment. I find it frankly, as netiquette goes, unacceptable to wordlessly roll a revert back. Commented Feb 19 at 16:17
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    @JonathanScholbach one mod on another side took issue with my edits, they've managed to edit less posts in 5 years than I've edited in a just a couple of days. I'm going to give you a sure rule of thumb: when an editor has +5000 edits there's a considerable chance they know what they're doing. That particular mod also had other strange tendencies, like declining flags raised on post that disclosed user's PII. So it's been my experience that when a mod invites you to chat to discuss editing criteria, they don't know what they're doing. (BTW there's a typo in your profile description.)
    – bad_coder
    Commented Feb 19 at 16:26
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    @Cerbrus: "but there are a couple of users in here that still insist OP's edits should be reinstated... OP got an answer, he's happy with it, so why can't you?" - Eh? Isn't a purpose of a discussion to provide arguments for both sides? And, like on the main site, accepting an answer doesn't mean it is the best one. For me it is interesting how argumentation of some users is reduced to "Hey, the editor has 5000+ edits. Do not ever think that a particular edit was wrong."
    – Tsyvarev
    Commented Feb 19 at 23:39
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    Concerning the edit itself. Put aside the question body. But what is about the title, which now cannot be shown in the single line and even contains "optional" part (in parenthesis)? For me, a title with parenthesis is something which should be avoided by all costs, except understandability/correctness. Is "optional" part actually unavoidable in the given case?
    – Tsyvarev
    Commented Feb 19 at 23:50
  • @Tsyvarev LOL no, actually I made a few arguments, and the one sentence you decided to extracted is misquoting me. But thank you for taking interest, I appreciate it :D Admitting my deviousness I made several arguments to a mod who rolled back an edit with a SEO argument in the edit summary. It's recommended to antagonize mods who "take it to meta" and have technical inaccuracies in their content moderation, we must quote "The SEO is a cesspool in the middle of a dumpster fire"
    – bad_coder
    Commented Feb 20 at 4:56
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    "I actually read that as high praise for having posted "canonical grade material"." That's how I intended it, yes. Commented Feb 20 at 5:12
  • (Also, wow, I really am getting close to 5k edits apparently. And today I noticed that I can actually check this on my profile.) Commented Feb 20 at 5:32
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    @bad_coder again, the user you're referring to as "a mod" is not a moderator...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 20 at 8:10
  • You said you replaced "lazy evaluation" with "short circuiting" so people could find it more easily, "more recognizable and more searchable". My counterpoint is that the lazy-evaluation tag has 2,586 questions, and short-circuiting only has 471 questions. I personally (albeit in France) was taught the term "lazy evaluation". So even if both are easily understood, IMO people who need that kind of information will tend to use "lazy evaluation" in their search query.
    – Seblor
    Commented Feb 21 at 10:45
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    @Seblor Fair enough. I'll try to figure out some further improvements later. Commented Feb 21 at 11:05
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As I indicated in my comments to Karl's answer here in meta, I think editing without explanation, let alone reverting the author's revert, is unacceptable. I would only do that as a last resort for evil content or blatant misinformation (and probably flag it).

I don't mean that the reverting was unacceptable according to some code of conduct (that is, don't bother a mod with it) — I think it was unacceptable regarding the way I think people should interact here, and in general.

Of course, what Karl says (it is just a matter of curation for the greater good) has its merits; but your (Jonathan's) post was not wrong or misleading, and in my book the author has a lot of informal authority about their post. Sure, go ahead and correct typos or obvious errors; but do not substantially change the look and feel of a post. This is particularly true if the author knows what they are doing. I have no trouble editing the "Help!" out of a title, adding tags or helping a foreign speaker with their English. But you are not an inexperienced user, and your command of the language allows you to express yourself in the way you intend.

So why do I find the edits (or perhaps rather: the way these edits happened) regrettable?

The main arguments, apart from generally different ideas how people should treat each other:

  • It is in the eye of the beholder what constitutes a good post. I think you (Jonathan) wrote from the perspective of a (relative) beginner, Karl removed fluff and made it more concise. Perhaps Karl's ideal concept of a post is like the printf man page; but perhaps for beginners, a post like one I wrote a while ago is more useful to a learner. Writing from the perspective of a learner is not necessarily inferior.
  • True, all posts are under a Creative Commons license; Karl was able to read and understand the law. What he did not understand was how the site actually works. It works by gamification; users are rewarded for their contributions. Perhaps I should make the emphasis clearer: Users are rewarded for their contributions. They identify with their posts. Sure, legally they have given it away — in the game though, socially and psychologically, it's very much theirs.
  • Yes, this site is a collaboration. There is a "con" hidden in that word. It's not "I know better and plow through your work" but it is "may I make a suggestion", and then working together on that post. I have the impression that you are actually not unhappy about the result, after some reflection; a similar result (perhaps retaining more of the "learner accessibility") could have been achieved in a more collaborative fashion, ultimately in the spirit of the site.
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    "I think you (Jonathan) wrote from the perspective of a (relative) beginner" - Even from the view of a person with moderate knowledge of Python I find OP variant (e.g. that revision) to be more organic and be easier to understand than the edited one.
    – Tsyvarev
    Commented Feb 19 at 18:07
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    I agree with this post, author's intent is always to be respected. However, I'd call this issue a case of "site etiquette" in "collaborative editing". The OP is an experienced user (a mod) so lets be frank: it takes many hours to go through the metas learning about proper editing - I don't blame users for sparing themselves that reading/work. But by comparison we should wonder how wikipedia keeps such high edit standards? SE is to be blamed for not having made any effort at centralizing a style guide - due to that, let me assure you: trying to edit attracts a lot of trouble and discussion.
    – bad_coder
    Commented Feb 19 at 21:10
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    Peter, I don't believe you could be any more wrong on your points (ok, maybe the first you can't be wrong on because I agree it is a bit subjective). Gamification is irrelevant to most users that actively involve themselves in curation because they have already progressed beyond earning rep for it, in essence they provide it for free for the good of the site. For the third point, it's asynchronous collaboration... I'm not going to ask permission and wait around for you to respond when I can just make the necessary improvements and move on.
    – Drew Reese
    Commented Feb 19 at 21:44
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    @DrewReese Fair points -- but note that "I edited because xy, feel free to revert if you don't like it" does not cause any delay. Commented Feb 19 at 21:46
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    Peter, that's what the edit summary text box is for, no need to create noisy comments. But maybe this is what you are referring to, and if so, then I apologize missing that in your post.
    – Drew Reese
    Commented Feb 19 at 21:47
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    @DrewReese Politeness and respect is almost eo ipso redundant -- it does, after all, not add new factual information. Instead, it aims at making other people feel better, which is not only nice but may make things go smoother. For example, this thread would not be necessary. Also, "feel free to revert it if you don't like it" is actual meta information and betrays a different attitude than rewriting other people's text with "removed noise" ;-). Oh, perhaps one could fit that in the summary box; a comment is more visible though. Commented Feb 19 at 21:57
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    "editing without explanation" All of Karl's edits contained a reason. Your 3 bullet points at the end of this answer completely miss the mark. OP was wrong in reverting the edits that improved the quality of the question. That's got nothing to do with "perspective". Anything you post here is, by definition, no longer yours. And finally, no, questions and answers are not inherently a collaboration, unless converted to a community wiki.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 19 at 22:09
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    What I've found from my experience with reading beginners trying to describe problems, is that they'll commonly either misuse terminology or come up with their own metaphors or (flawed) hypotheses about what is going on. The problem is that every beginner will do this differently - therefore, there is no reason why one beginner's explanation of the problem should be more comprehensible to another beginner than one that is written by someone with a full understanding. Better to set a good example by using minimal terminology as appropriate to describe the problem setup - correctly. Commented Feb 20 at 5:18
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    @KarlKnechtel I agree that the "libertarian" approach to letting the communities slug out on meta what should constitute good editing guidelines has its pros. But by not centralizing what conclusions have been distilled in +10 years SE leaves individual editors open to all kind of misunderstandings, I've too often gotten into arguments about edits where I had to pull up the canonical meta post and that is aggravating because trollish users seek opportunities to pick arguments. (Editing isn't streamlined here.) When mods themselves don't know how to edit it becomes an ever worst problem.
    – bad_coder
    Commented Feb 20 at 6:43
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    @Cerbrus The last rollback by Karl does not contain an explanation. In a way, it doesn't need one: It only repeats his previous edits which had short justifications. But the way I read it, rolling back Jonathan's refusal to accept those previous edits has a meta message: "I am right and you are wrong; now shut up." Commented Feb 20 at 7:15
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    @Cerbrus Other people may read it differently, less dramatically, of course. But this reading makes me consider especially the last rollback impolite to the point of being unacceptable, on an interpersonal level as well as on a pragmatic level (the site would work better if such edits were suggested or at least thoroughly explained). Commented Feb 20 at 7:15
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    @Peter-ReinstateMonica ok, I finally took a good long look at Karl's edit and... it's awesome! The word count was drastically reduced; the problem was spelled out with all technical subtleties clearly mentioned and self-explained; links were surgical. Edits do not get any better than that, I'd keep that edit as-is if it were my post and I'd ping Karl in the comments saying: "great edit".
    – bad_coder
    Commented Feb 20 at 7:28
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    @Peter-ReinstateMonica By the same logic, OP's initial rollbacks of improvements to his posts are equally impolite... You're just reading waaaaay too much into these rollbacks.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 20 at 8:12
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    @KarlKnechtel I may be too timid but seeing that the OP doesn't like my edits I'd have started a dialog before rolling back ("I thought my edits improved the answer, was there anything specific you didn't like?") Commented Feb 20 at 8:28
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    @Cerbrus Yes, as the OP I'd have probably said something to Karl here while rolling back ("I see what you were trying to do but I really didn't like the edits because they change the character of my answer so much" or whatever). Commented Feb 20 at 8:30

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