183

I just stumbled across this edit in which a staff member made some English tweaks. What struck me as odd though, is that they added "thanks", which is considered noise and is supposed to be removed from posts. Later on, they transcribed the code from the image to text, which isn't in accordance with community consensus as discussed and as written in the FAQ. The staff member has been editing several posts in the past half hour, all with the same muster, smelling of AI use.

Does that mean that "as of 2023-06-18 7:42 UTC the question formatting assistant experiment has been turned off" actually meant "only for regular users"?

This is a perfect example of why AI editing is far from perfect yet and in certain cases, e.g. adding "thanks" or transcribing images, in direct conflict with the current rules on Stack Overflow.

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  • 14
    This is also a very questionable edit. Commented Jun 19, 2023 at 12:58
  • 75
    I don't think it has anything to do with AI. Over in MSE many staff members who are not CM's add "thanks" and signatures, out of sheer habit of posting online, or emails. They simply have no idea what the site rules or culture are, which is expected. Product manager doesn't have to know the product, just make it sell well. Commented Jun 19, 2023 at 13:00
  • 89
    The AI aspect aside, this is a perfect example of why edits made by people with little experience of how the site works should go through a review queue.
    – Dan Mašek
    Commented Jun 19, 2023 at 13:13
  • 51
    @machine_1 It is bloat, as it doesn't add any useful information to the question. What certainly doesn't make sense is for some third party to add such text to OP's post while editing it.
    – Dan Mašek
    Commented Jun 19, 2023 at 13:31
  • 78
    This also looks like abuse of their staff diamond privilege. Their edits should go through the review queue like every other 1-rep user.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 19, 2023 at 13:40
  • 54
    Yes, it is bloat, @machine_1. Heaps of text have been written regarding the matter, so I'll just point towards the official Help Center page defining expected behavior on the network: "Do not use signature, taglines, greetings, thanks, or other chitchat.".
    – 0Valt
    Commented Jun 19, 2023 at 13:41
  • 87
    @AndreasdetestsAIhype My point is that this staff user should probably not have a diamond. They probably don't actually need one to do their job, and it's clear they are misusing it here by making bad edits to questions that circumvent review queues. The edit Adriaan mentioned first also changed a non-opinion-based question into an opinion-based one... literally every aspect of that revision was bad.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 19, 2023 at 13:46
  • 57
    These are the edits that we would usually send a warning about and if it doesn't stop suspend the user. But since moderators are on strike this is unlikely to happen.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 19, 2023 at 16:51
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    Or more specifically, @ahiijny : Should we edit a question to transcribe code from an image to text?
    – Thom A
    Commented Jun 19, 2023 at 18:12
  • 12
    A canonical is Should 'Hi', 'thanks', taglines, and salutations be removed from posts? (MSE). Commented Jun 19, 2023 at 18:35
  • 23
    Staff having no idea what they’re doing, and abusing their editing rights, seem like good reasons to consider signing the strike letter. Commented Jun 20, 2023 at 1:08
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    The real question is why there was 6 edits to a "picture of code" question which should just have been closed. Lipstick on a pig. Or in this case, sloppy spray paint on a pig...
    – Lundin
    Commented Jun 20, 2023 at 7:35
  • 31
    It seems the editor does not yet have the informed badge. Maybe someone could tell them about the tour to get familiar with the site :P Commented Jun 20, 2023 at 11:02
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    Rather: half-decent manager skills suggest that when hiring someone fresh out of school/no relevant domain experience, you can't just toss them in at the deep end of the basin and walk away. Someone experienced in using the sites should be put in charge of them. Awful managers won't even do that, but fire the experienced staff and replace them with inexperienced ones, again without giving them time to learn, then tell them to spend 8 hours a day chasing some poorly-defined buzzword for poorly-defined purposes.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jun 20, 2023 at 11:23
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    We saw lots of such companies and managers around the IT crash year ~2002. They all went rapidly bankrupt. As usual the only thing we can learn from history is that humans never learn from history.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jun 20, 2023 at 11:23

2 Answers 2

106

These edits are no doubt concerning, and when I was notified about them, I immediately asked the staff member in question to stop until I had a chance to talk to them (the changes happened on a day that I was not working and would not be able to further investigate) and find out exactly what was happening. They confirmed to me that they would stop making any changes immediately (and they did so), and that they would be happy to talk to me, but they are on vacation this week. We will be following up next week so that I can get the full context about what happened here and determine whether any of the edits were AI-assisted, AI-generated, or none of the above.

At that point, once I understand better what exactly was going on, I will be certain that the staff member will get some follow-up training from one of my community managers on the appropriate ways to contribute, including when it's inappropriate to edit using the diamond and the community norms.

I apologize for the disruption here, and ask for your patience while we determine exactly what the situation is. It is not our practice to make "practice" changes on the live site (we have several different demo environments to work in), and I agree that these do not (on surface) seem to be natural organic changes, but they do seem to be practice/test changes. I will follow up with the staffer and their manager once they're back from vacation. I would like to request that there not be any further speculation here, until we know what we're actually dealing with.

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    Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter, and for your honest, direct response. Very much appreciated (always, and especially now). Please feel free to let the mods know if we can be of any help in offering guidance, suggestions, etc.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 21, 2023 at 5:29
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    @starball The staff member has made some independent edits that seem to have been for practicing purposes. Management cannot always be aware of everything their employees do. And a vacation is a valid reason to delay talking about an instance. While yes, the edits were bad, and stirred up the community, they haven’t done much real irrevocable harm, or require any immediate action from the employee. It’s quite clearly a single person’s action. No other staff members have made similar edits, and these edits are few, so there’s not much reason to doubt Philippe’s words in this case. Commented Jun 21, 2023 at 6:08
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    I see no reason to speculate any much further in the light of this update, as it’s an adequate description of what’s happened. It seems to have been a single person’s mistake. Further speculation only makes it more personal, and puts much attention at an employee that made an unsupervised mistake, for no real gain. I’d leave the staff member alone, though discussing the company as a whole is still possible. But I don’t see how that’s interesting, as long as this is nothing more than a single person’s minor mistake, which may even have happened off-work for all we know. Commented Jun 21, 2023 at 6:12
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    This was a good find by the community, and deserved to be brought up in the light of the recent events, though. If it so is that a new staff member went rogue with a new toy, there’s no reason to put that on a public pillory past this point. Such is best handled internally. Commented Jun 21, 2023 at 6:15
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    *(staff (plural) as a team). like- IIRC, there was training provided for the last community-a-thon. we have a Help Center page on editing, a MSO FAQ page on editing, a MSE FAQ page on editing, and similar pages on close-voting, and the non-inline editing page has guidance on editing. The fact that none of that was sufficient here should raise some serious questions about how things can be systematically improved within the company and in the network sites' implementation.
    – starball
    Commented Jun 21, 2023 at 8:59
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    @AndreasdetestsAIhype "Management cannot always be aware of everything their employees do." They did give this individual full moderator rights on the live site however. The management problem: why is an employee who doesn't even understand how the product works is trusted with full moderator access to it. Perhaps it would be sensible to just give them full moderator rights on some test build/repo and not on the live site.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jun 21, 2023 at 9:11
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    @Lundin - that's an option that's open to us, and one that we do on a regular basis when the employee doesn't have a need for mod rights on production servers. We have a number of environments for that. However, certain employees have need (expressed or assumed, depending - Community Management is assumed need, for instance) to the mod tools. It's not given automatically, ever. Someone from my team is involved in all of the recent ones (not always true in the past, but true now). Onboarding and community training is an area that I'm in the midst of revamping right now.
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Jun 21, 2023 at 9:32
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    @Philippe Ok, seems you have tracked down the cause of the problem then. It's curious why SO have so many devs who don't even know how SO works, however. Finding anyone working with web development who does not know how at least the basics of how to use SO is probably quite hard for the average software company. I would think experience of using SO might be a nice merit or even a requirement when hiring devs to work with the site itself.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jun 21, 2023 at 9:47
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    The staff member in question is not a developer.
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Jun 21, 2023 at 13:41
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    @starball Yeah, this an example of something that’s gone wrong within the organization, but there’s a level of trust that needs to be within any organization, meaning, others not knowing that this happened, isn’t the issue. The issue is that it could happen in the first place. It’s a symptom of an impaired organization, along with many other signs. Well, the entire AI venture is a symptom of something being seriously wrong. Commented Jun 21, 2023 at 13:48
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    @Lundin I don't know why that would be a huge surprise when the disconnect between how curators are trying to keep the site working and what random devs want the site to be is so large. Commented Jun 22, 2023 at 2:15
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    @Philippe So you gave someone who isn't a dev and doesn't know the site moderator access. That's an even bigger problem then. I can't see why anyone but devs and CMs need that.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jun 22, 2023 at 6:41
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    Product managers need access. Designers need parts of the tool set, and we don't have the rights subset. Engineers. Community Managers. Info Sec.... it's quite a long list of potential needs.
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Jun 22, 2023 at 12:31
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    Fair question. I was out due to a death in the family, but my understanding from those who dealt with it is that the staff member in question was contacted and connected with a member of my team for some mentoring on site and as someone to ask questions of. We'll monitor and watch for recurrence, but we're also amping up the on-boarding and training for new employees to try to head off future circumstances that are similar. I've asked Catija from my team to work with me on that piece of it.
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Jul 12, 2023 at 8:38
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    Yes, they were. They are now aware of the error of their ways, and I am assured that it will not be repeated. And as I said, we're going to monitor and watch for reoccurrence and make changes to our onboarding and training to prevent future incidents.
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Jul 26, 2023 at 6:28
78

Some feedback to the Staff that made those edits:

rev 2 in https://stackoverflow.com/posts/76506506/revisions fixes several oddities such as a weird semicolon where there probably shouldn't be one, changes the name of a file to a more conventional one, and fixes invalid JSON. Changing the semantics of what the question asker writes obscures issues the asker could actually be facing (I was concerned about this from the start). The team working on the Formatting Assistant tried, but it's evidently not working.

There's not too much point in trying to polish https://stackoverflow.com/posts/76506504/revisions. It's missing a MRE and has now been closed. See How to Ask's section on Helping others reproduce the problem. Five days into the release of ChatGPT, I was already suggesting directing efforts instead to deeper issues like posts lacking enough detail, or enough of the right kinds of detail. Feel free to polish stuff that should be closed, but stuff that should be closed should be closed.

https://stackoverflow.com/posts/76506701/revisions "best" is a pet peeve of mine. Best in terms of... what? This is software. We deal in a world of tradeoffs. The original question post didn't say anything about what it wants to optimize for. In fact- It didn't even make any mention of wanting something optimized. A single word subtly but fundamentally changed the meaning of the question and changed it into one that lacked details on what to optimize for. Friendly reminder that as an editor, you're generally not supposed to change the meaning of the post. Sometimes I sidestep that rule, but only when I think it doesn't invalidate any existing answers, and significantly increases the value of the Q&A to the rest of the internet.

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    They're just new to the site. This kind of thing is exactly why we can @-ping editors in comments: to explain why edits are unhelpful.
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented Jun 20, 2023 at 16:04
  • I understand the frustration, but the condescending tone is unnecessary.
    – Passer By
    Commented Jun 21, 2023 at 8:54
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    @PasserBy the post wasn't written to be condescending. It's frank and blunt (and it was written to be that way). If it reads as condescending to you, you're welcome to edit it to make what you think are improvements.
    – starball
    Commented Jun 21, 2023 at 9:02
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    I will perhaps when I can. What I'm referring to is "This is basic stuff" and the likes, which doesn't quite radiate positivity.
    – Passer By
    Commented Jun 21, 2023 at 9:07
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    @PasserBy okay to be honest, you're right. I probably came off as harsh, and in the back of my mind meant to. But it was pressing on me. I've gone and softened the post. Thanks for calling it out. Now I go to sleep.
    – starball
    Commented Jun 21, 2023 at 9:28
  • Instead of "best", that should probably just be "How do I". But the edits on that question was probably a waste of time since the question wasn't really a good fit for the site, and has now been deleted.
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Jun 22, 2023 at 13:35

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