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Yesterday, I asked the question Loop over tuples in bash, separated by a newline. There were some inconsistencies with input and output examples but I resolved them in the first hour and received updated answers. All three answers resolve my problem exactly and provide enough detail to understand what I did wrong or what I should do instead.

Curiously, today I found this question was closed due to lack of "details or clarity". Why?

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    One of the close voters also answered the question, so that's a...curious choice on their part. Answering and also concurrently voting to close (especially as unclear) is not really an appropriate thing for someone to do. I dunno, your question looks fine to me, but I'm a terrible bash programmer and I try my best not to write shell scripts, so I'm perhaps the wrong person to judge.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Apr 27, 2023 at 6:52
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    Separately, as a matter of timing, the first close vote was cast before any of your clarifying edits, so it's possible they never saw the edits. The second one was the one I described above that I don't think was really appropriate. Perhaps the third voter saw something, but hopefully a subject-matter expert can chime in.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Apr 27, 2023 at 7:12
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    2 comments are by 2 close voters. Act on them. Debug questions require a [mre]. PS If you want to ask about the final goal rather than what you don't understand about the code that doesn't do what you don't expect, bad code is not relevant, working relevant parts & your reasoning are. And "not what I expect" is not helpful, explain what you expected & why you expected it, justified by competent documentation--don't just dump wrong code. Make up your mind which you are asking about--your bad code/expectations or your goal.
    – philipxy
    Commented Apr 27, 2023 at 7:13
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    I think "unclear" close reason was correct until rev 4, when first vote was cast. When I saw the question and cast third vote "typo" reason looked more appropriate but "unclear" won by majority
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 27, 2023 at 7:23
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    Is the question "why doesn't this code work?" ? Or is it "how do I get the desired result?" ? Commented Apr 27, 2023 at 18:23
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    @RyanM I view concurrently answering and voting to close as worse than "not really an appropriate thing"; it is wrong, and shouldn't be allowed. Either post an answer or vote to close, but not both. I appreciate that there are edge cases arising from the question being edited after an answer was posted, but the bottom line should be don't answer bad questions. And if you want to vote to close a question that you have already answered then have the courage of your convictions and delete your answer before close voting.
    – skomisa
    Commented Apr 27, 2023 at 21:19
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    Depends whether closing as typo is incompatible with answering. i think this is an old argument, personally I'm in favour of answering and closing Commented Apr 28, 2023 at 9:02
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    @Konrad closing a question means "This question should not have answers". Posting an answer is thus the opposite. And we're not a help desk - if somebody has typos that are specific to their code, e.g., misspelling user as usre , then that does not help future visitors. We do not want to keep these questions around. Posting an answer very likely means the question sticks around forever, diluting search results and actively detracting value for anybody who lands there because the question was never removed. So, it's only a win-win for the question author and the answerer who gets rep.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Apr 28, 2023 at 9:43
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    @Charlieface if it's a common typo-problem that deserves an answer, the the question shouldn't be closed. Unless there is already an existing duplicate explaining that issue, then it should be closed as a duplicate of that.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Apr 28, 2023 at 10:24
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    @VLAZ I feel like "common typo-problems" should normally get an artificial canonical written up. Nobody who has them will ask them well, and none of the attempts will stand out as the best to use for closing others. For example, stackoverflow.com/questions/72482298 has become one of my own top questions. Commented Apr 28, 2023 at 14:00
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    @KarlKnechtel yes, chances are that common typos already have some existing question about them. The site has been live for well more than a decade. One would expect common problems to have been asked for. My main point is that answering and closing are opposites. It doesn't make sense to answer and close as typo. The question (and potential answer) are either unhelpful for future visitors, or they are. There is no situation where somebody should claim both are true.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Apr 28, 2023 at 14:09
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    @EJoshuaS-StandwithUkraine yeah, we've looked into the situation with the answers+close votes and taken some action regarding it (we don't discuss the details of moderation actions publicly, hence the vagueness; just want to confirm that we don't consider that acceptable and that we did do something).
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Apr 28, 2023 at 22:53
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    @VLAZ "closing a question means 'This question should not have answers'."; \@EJoshuaS "By definition, voting to close means that you think that a question can't (or shouldn't) be answered here." — I think that's arguably false for some close reasons. Closing something as a duplicate, for instance.
    – M. Justin
    Commented Apr 28, 2023 at 22:56
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    @M.Justin Agreed, but it's much more true for the non-duplicate close reasons, which was what was at issue here.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Apr 28, 2023 at 23:50
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    @M.Justin Duplicates are an edge case. Questions that are too broad or unclear, though, really can't be reasonably answered in SO's format, and POB and off-topic questions shouldn't be answered. Commented Apr 29, 2023 at 3:08

2 Answers 2

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There is no question in that post.

PS

what I did wrong or what I should do instead

If one of those has something to do with what you wanted to ask, you didn't say.

If you want to ask about the final goal rather than what you don't understand about the code that doesn't do what you don't expect, bad code is not relevant, working relevant parts & your reasoning are. And "not what I expect" is not helpful, explain what you expected & why you expected it, justified by competent documentation--don't just dump wrong code. Make up your mind which you are asking about--your bad code/expectations or your goal.

PS Debug questions require a minimal reproducible example.

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    Re "Debug questions require a minimal reproducible example", is that formal SO policy, or just your opinion? There are many scenarios where providing an MRE is impractical, impossible or meaningless.
    – skomisa
    Commented Apr 29, 2023 at 18:54
  • @skomisa Basically yes, see the Needs debugging information close reason text. However, if the question can be answered without an MRE, then it doesn't have to be closed. If an MRE can't be provided then the question should mention it (unless it's implicit in the tags or similar).
    – MegaIng
    Commented Apr 29, 2023 at 21:09
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    @MegaIng No, requires.
    – philipxy
    Commented Apr 30, 2023 at 0:57
  • @skomisa stackoverflow.com/help/on-topic
    – philipxy
    Commented Apr 30, 2023 at 0:59
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    @philipxy Wow - you are correct; SO policy does requires an MRE for any debug problem. That is silly, unnecessary and counterproductive. For example, here's a debug question from a few days ago (which I answered): Program runs in CLion but gives procedure entry point error when run from file explorer Not only did the OP not provide an MRE, but they didn't provide any code at all! And that was perfectly fine because the question presented their problem concisely and clearly, with enough information to yield an accepted answer. No MRE was needed.
    – skomisa
    Commented Apr 30, 2023 at 1:37
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    @philipxy ...And of course, because there is a "Needs debugging details" close reason, some zealous but unthinking users vote to close perfectly valid debug questions simply because there is no MRE. To be clear, requiring an MRE can be reasonable and appropriate in many scenarios, and closing questions because there is no MRE in those scenarios is valid. But the notion that an MRE must always be provided for every debug question is severely misguided.
    – skomisa
    Commented Apr 30, 2023 at 1:43
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    @skomisa Just to be clear, that question you answered did have an MRE. The bug isn't contained in the code itself, and so providing code is unnecessary. It contained the error message (which should preferably have also been provided as text, not just an image). So it fulfills the requirements. Such a question could've been mistakenly closed in SOCVR (as an example), but that would have been a mistake. Such mistakes happen, and when spotted, closing the question is "aborted". If it did go through, explain why it was wrong, and post a request for reopening. Commented Apr 30, 2023 at 1:51
  • @Andreasdetestscensorship No, the question did not have an MRE. An MRE is code, and the question did not include any code. From the link philipxy provided, "Questions seeking debugging help ("why isn't this code working?") must include the desired behavior, a specific problem or error and the shortest code necessary to reproduce it in the question itself. " And you prove my point by stating that "The bug isn't contained in the code itself, and so providing code is unnecessary".
    – skomisa
    Commented Apr 30, 2023 at 17:38
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    @skomisa The error message is given, and a description of the environment changes is provided. As such, code is not necessary, because you can reproduce it with any imaginable code. Commented Apr 30, 2023 at 21:08
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    @Andreasdetestscensorship Sure, which is why always requiring an MRE for debug questions is a bad policy. It invites spurious close voting because no MRE has been provided when no MRE is necessary.
    – skomisa
    Commented Apr 30, 2023 at 21:35
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    @skomisa It's not required. It's quite clearly written that it's the shortest code necessary to reproduce it. The shortest code in this case is none. Commented Apr 30, 2023 at 21:37
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    @Andreasdetestscensorship That's a torturous and absurd argument. You are defending the indefensible. If no MRE is required to debug a question in some circumstances then SO shouldn't have a policy of always requiring an MRE.
    – skomisa
    Commented Apr 30, 2023 at 21:40
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    The ones that voted to close the question, simply believed that the question wasn't reproducable without code. That's a failure on their part. There's a lot of questions coming in every day, so quick decisions are made. Simply get it reopened if it was incorrectly closed. There's nothing toxic about misunderstanding, or making an honest mistake. @philipxy Commented Apr 30, 2023 at 21:41
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    @skomisa "SO shouldn't have a policy of always requiring an MRE". Of course it should. MRE stands for "minimal reproducible example". All the data necessary to reproduce the issue are provided. "MRE" does not require code. It only requires code if code is necessary! Commented Apr 30, 2023 at 21:42
  • Related: Min-Reprex: a less awkward name for MCVE Commented May 2, 2023 at 17:58
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I'm in two minds whether to post this as an answer or comment... but something that happened to me recently may be very relevant in this case.

When people commented on your question you updated to try to deal with comments. In that case some people can be a tad lazy and pay more attention to the comments than your actual question. In any case, when you edit to deal with someone's comments it's appropriate to flag those comments as "No longer needed".

The further clarification I received from a moderator over on U&L was that if it's not 100% clear why your edit deals with the comment, it might alternatively be appropriate to raise a custom flag to explain.

Obviously this is something to do wisely and not just because you dislike the comments that were made. But I do find it can help slow the close votes if your edit genuinely improved (and invalidated) comments made.

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    You may think your edits addressed the comment, but you're probably not the best person to judge. If you didn't get it right the first time, there's a good chance you didn't get it right the second time either. Commented Apr 29, 2023 at 5:51
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    I'd be hesitant to flag comments as NLN if you're not 100% sure you fully understood what they were asking for. It's very common for edits from beginners new to a subject to not really grok what the commenter wanted. Or for those new to SO in general, to not actually make a [mcve] with debugging details. Commented Apr 29, 2023 at 7:02
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    @MarkRansom Yes that of course depends on how concrete or subjective the comments were. "Details or clarity" flags so often come with a request that's concrete such as this one: stackoverflow.com/questions/76111006/… Commented Apr 29, 2023 at 7:40

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