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I flagged this post: Time to take a stand

No specific flag options were available, so I chose needs moderator attention and this text "This post has nothing to do with programming or the operation of StackOverflow. It is off topic"

It was declined with the following text: "flags should only be used to make moderators aware of content that requires their intervention"

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  • 2
    The title of this question does not lend itself particularly well to discussion, since your idea on the matter seems already set in stone... No useful discussion ever starts with such bold statement. FYI, that goes for "Time to Take a Stand" as well.
    – Tunaki
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 11:45
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    What is it about the post that makes you think the moderators are currently unaware of it? meta.stackoverflow.com/posts/342440/timeline Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 11:47
  • 3
    You'd do better to vote on the answers at Should the "time to take a stand" question be closed moved? and/or post your view there.
    – jscs
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 11:47
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    Your flag is obviously correct, yes, but our rules do not apply to that question. All attempts to enforce them have been rejected by the moderation team, the SE staff, and the CEO himself. There is nothing more to do but wait for Tim to post about that mess later today, I'm afraid. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 11:50
  • 13
    When I submitted the flag, I had no idea who Joel Spolsky was. I flagged only on the merit of the "Question". Retrospectively, my hope was that several people would do the same. (There was no question, as far as I could tell) I would have simply flagged it as "off topic" but that wasn't offered.
    – TecBrat
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 11:53
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    When exactly did you submit your flag? The question has a score of 1500+, it has 56 answers, a bunch of diamond ♦ users are involved, its revision history shows an endless cycle of closing and reopening, and the post is locked by a moderator. So I honestly don't see why you thought you should flag it for moderator attention, given all this context.
    – user247702
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 12:04
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    The post is locked and there is a specific note on the post that outlines what is happening next. You flagged it after that lock; I'm not sure if you missed that part but clearly the post is already under plenty of attention and didn't need any more.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 12:12
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    @FrédéricHamidi they may reject until hell freezes over but two hundreds close votes seem to be sending clear and strong enough signal that rejection may lead to a dead end. Every user can vote only once and it seems so easy to overrule by diamond's reopen but when there are hundreds of them... well you saw what happened, featured tag was edited out and question got locked
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 12:28
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    @gnat, they will reject until hell freezes over. We could have cast two thousand close votes and the situation would have been the same. The result is not exactly a "dead-end" to me -- the question is still here and its most upvoted answer is still implying that anyone who doesn't want to hear about that on Meta is a fscking nazi. I honestly wouldn't want to be in Tim's shoes right now -- there is a lot to repair here. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 12:36
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    @FrédéricHamidi if you think of it, your point about two thousands close votes really shows a way. Rejections are hard power here, close votes are soft power, and while at the surface it may seem that hard power won (the question and answer are still there) one can argue that it is really opposite. Think of it, how it looks like to the world outside of Stack Exchange headquarters that they so obviously overrule such a strong community feedback. Think of how this could reflect on the image and reputation of the company that depends so much on content contributed and curated by community
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 12:50
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    It is a bit disingenuous to represent this as "the community" vs. "the moderators/employees". There were plenty of reopen votes cast by community members. It was contentious, not completely one-sided.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 12:54
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    @CodyGray it would be troublesome even if it was 200 closes against 200 reopens (IIRC it was like 200:80 but it doesn't really matter). Normal action for splits like that is to lock the post long before tension gets to this point and the very fact that it didn't happen is already troublesome
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 12:58
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    @Cody, "if we leave it as it is, we send the message to users that whether a post belongs on the site depends more on the individual who posted it than on the content"; "yes, this question should be closed"; "but overall I think this message should go to the blog", etc., etc... That looks pretty clear to me. Anyway, it doesn't look like discussing it here will be very productive, with my comments being removed and all. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 13:01
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    "The high amount of off-topic comments generated." @FrédéricHamidi, you are leaving off topics comment on a Not Off topics question. Clin d'œil. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 13:03
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    By the time I posted this, I actually knew the answer. I asked it rhetorically, expecting the discussion that ensued. The answer is the 1st line of the accepted answer The owner of the company wrote that post. The founders of the company lean far left. Anyone right of center has to weigh the benefits of participation on these sites against allowing his or her content to support a leftist activist organization. The owners of the company make the rules. They have a right to do so. When they rule that they are subject to different rules, each member of the community must react as they see fit
    – TecBrat
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 17:54

1 Answer 1

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The owner of the company wrote that post.

Having seen your flag, I wanted to let you know that we were well aware of the fact that Joel had written it.

It didn't occur to me that someone wouldn't know who Joel was (it was chaos at the moment), I should have been more specific.

Sorry about that!

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    It seems like that rejection reason would still be correct, under the current guidelines. You don't need to know who Joel is. There is no reason to flag the question as "requires moderator attention" because it doesn't—it just needs to be closed (arguably), and that's something the community can do without moderator involvement. The correct flag would have been "should be closed" -> "off topic" -> unrelated to Stack Overflow, just like everyone else involved in the Great Closure War of 2017 chose.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 12:21
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    @CodyGray it can't be closed right now because of the lock. Then again, the lock means it doesn't need to be closed right now. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 12:33
  • This was the Great Closure War of 2017 @CodyGray? Then what do we do the rest of the year?
    – Bart
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 12:35
  • Rest of the year, I bet we will still be fighting this post and his devils childs. I headed that some of them already change their gender to Off-topic and begin to protest with tee shirt "I am Joel" Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 12:41
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    Fight, @Bart. We fight for what's right. And maybe answer some programming questions.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 12:43
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    Probably related to the fact that it was locked, the "off topic" flag reason was not presented to me. I did see the high level of upvotes, but the number of upvotes or other activity did not make the question any more "on topic", so I flagged using the only flag available to me.
    – TecBrat
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 14:32
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    Good luck with your official response Tim. Think everyone needs to just step back, accept what happened, move on and get back to the Q&A side of things.
    – Tanner
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 14:32
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    We are always asked to vote and flag based on content, not based on users. The OP did the right thing. The moderators, however, have not. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 15:19
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    @Cody, alas, this is actually Stack Overflow - Civil War, and for once you and I were not even on the same side. Joel's question has been reopened for the umpteenth time, lately even by Tim, so the message is clear. I wonder if the staff realizes what they're doing, especially given the current quality of the content on SO. Everything is going down to the gutter. I have lost trust in our moderation team and our staff. I'm packing my things -- there has to be another place on the network that is unfrequented enough to remain free of Joel's crusade du jour. See you there, brother. Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 11:28
  • @frederic I think you are slightly overreacting; there have been only 2 crusades ever. I hadn't originally considered the objections that people have raised over the past few days, but many of them are valid, and they make me feel very conflicted about what I actually think is right. I believe it may be a bit easier for people who do not live in the US to stand on the principle that this is off-topic and does not belong here, while it is much easier for me to identify with Joel that this is a serious issue with consequences requiring serious action, justifying a bit of rule-breaking.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33
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    I agree that content on the main site has been trending downwards for a long time, and I feel like much of the leadership is neglecting that problem, focusing instead on building new features that no one cares about and making superficial changes to the design that are only disruptive. But I don't think one incident is sufficient to obviate all faith in the moderation team or in the staff. Emotions run high with threats to people's lives and livelihoods, and I think that merits a bit of leeway. I do wonder, though, why they have decided to dig in their heels, given the reaction.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 11:36
  • With the question now almost 2 years old it's nothing but an ugly wart that looks like it should be deleted but won't be.
    – Joshua
    Commented Oct 5, 2018 at 22:42

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