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Because I don't have enough reputation to write comments (to ask for clarification on other answers) NOR can I up-vote answers that are helpful, I am stuck in this perpetual newb cycle.

I don't know enough to be answering the high-level questions yet, but I really shouldn't be asking 'new' questions to which I can easily google the answers because they have already been asked. Yet I cannot contribute to the 'old' question threads that I find helpful because my 'reputation' is too low.

I am completely stuck as a non-participating member of the community until I either become so much of an expert that I need not visit so often OR I find a loophole.

Meanwhile, I found a very confusing typo in this thread: multcomp Tukey-Kramer where the answer lacks "aov" in front of the 'model' they set up:

original: model <- (met ~ site * vtype)

corrected: model <- aov(met ~ site * vtype)

Now, to someone very experienced, perhaps this is not a big deal, but to someone who is not comfortable or familiar with changing the I SS to III SS, it's not straight forward (and no, the links to the supporting documentation didn't help with that, though I did find it lovely that supporting links were provided). I have no way of sharing this with the community because I am not allowed to comment AND it's explicitly stated that 'clarifications & comments' are not appropriate to post as 'answers'.

Perhaps the 'reputation' model was necessary just to keep spammer accounts or 'alt' accounts from polluting the quality of answers/comments (my suspicion). Perhaps the 'reputation' model is newer than most of the moderators and large contributors, thus it is infuriating because it is ill-conceived and rarely considered by those who hold the most power to change it.

Practically, though, it makes being a new programmer and new member of StackOverflow unnecessarily frustrating as it paints you into a corner where you must violate the rules in order to participate at all.

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    I often find that there are questions which I can answer even though Ive only got a small amount of experience in the topic, not all questions are hard, nor are all answers complex.
    – axwr
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 1:04
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    It's not clear to me that your linked example actually is a typo - it defines a formula first and then plugs that formula into aov a couple of lines later.
    – Marius
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 1:09
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    Been a while since I was a 1 rep user, but can you suggest an edit on the question? It would have to be approved of course, but it would be if it was useful. Even anonymous users can suggest edits I think - meta.stackexchange.com/questions/76251/… *edit - @Marius points out that this is not a typo or error after all. Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 1:09
  • If you found something in a question you don't understand and despite researching it you can't figure out why it is so, you can ask a question. Asking questions requires only 1 rep, no violation of rules necessary. Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 1:17
  • @Marius it is a typo as the code later does not work if you do not include the 'aov' in the first model <- Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 1:23
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    @RobertLongson asking a new question is easy, but keeping all of the clarifications on one thread is much simpler for the whole community. I agree with the format in that regard, which is why it is frustrating to need to post a 'new' question on a minute point Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 1:25
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    We don't have threads at all, we just have Q&A. It doesn't all need to be together because it's not a conversation. Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 1:28
  • @CatsCauseTypos - the actual typo is that drop1(aov(model),~.,test="F") should be drop1(aov(model, data=dat),~.,test="F") I think. The length of the bare vtype variable that it references otherwise is wrong. This is fixed when it is filled into the data.frame Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 2:16
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    You'll get rep for approved edits for a while and there's no shortage of posts that could use (good) edits so that's one way to become able to interact more with the site, while helping it in the process.
    – ivarni
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 5:23
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    Rep is fun; I'm proud of my score, but because of what it means -- that I've posted a bunch of stuff that my peers found useful -- not for some intrinsic value. This is a resource, not a competition. There's no shame in not having rep, and operating in read-only mode, if you don't yet have stuff to contribute. I don't worry about my RBI; I'm unskilled at baseball. Keep learning on your own, and eventually you'll be ready to participate.
    – jscs
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 17:20
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    @JoshCaswell, you really miss the point. The lower threshold prevents being able to participate in a way that is actually helpful to the community, and instead promotes duplicate question asking, out-of-place comments, and inelegant programming 'answers' from folks too new to be writing advanced solutions. Commented Nov 2, 2017 at 21:52
  • It sounds like an interesting perspective, but I really don’t see the connection to duplicate questions and people writing bad answers. Are you saying that people are doing those things just to harvest rep?
    – jscs
    Commented Nov 3, 2017 at 13:06
  • @JoshCaswell Yes; either directly to harvest rep, or as a byproduct of being cut off from asking follow up questions on a single thread. Commented Nov 10, 2017 at 3:05

3 Answers 3

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This is literally a non-problem, although it is a complaint that we get on a semi-regular basis.

The assumption that you somehow "need" reputation in order to interact with the site is absolutely false. You do not need any reputation to ask questions or post answers, which are the two main ways of interacting with this website.

Yes, you need reputation to post comments. That's partly to keep down spam, but also as a very intentional choice to funnel new users towards the answer box, because we want people to learn to answer questions rather than commenting on them. This is fundamentally what makes Stack Overflow different than other websites. On classical web "forums", you have lots of comments but no real answers. On Stack Overflow, the idea is to have precisely the opposite—few comments and all legitimate, useful answers to the question.

So, needing reputation to post comments is essentially a non-issue. Comments exist only for two reasons: (1) to ask for clarification, and (2) for moderation purposes. New users shouldn't be doing any kind of moderation tasks at all, so that's an entire, major use-case for comments that is inapplicable. That leaves us with only asking for clarification, and, again, in the Stack Overflow model, a question that requires clarification before it can be answered is not a good question, and therefore shouldn't be answered anyway. Skip those questions; don't bother answering them, move along and answer questions that don't require clarification. Questions that require clarification are very likely to be closed (put "on hold"), anyway, so answering them would largely be a waste of your time (and unlikely to pay dividends anyway, as closure is often a first step towards deletion).

I can only imagine the reason why people are so desperate to post clarification-seeking comments is because such a large percentage of the questions we get now are incomplete, underspecified, or otherwise incoherent, essentially necessitating comments. In other words, we get a lot of bad questions that you should not be answering. Thus, the motivation to leave comments is high, but that doesn't change how the site works. These questions shouldn't be answered. Leave the clarification-seeking to other users with more privileges. Focus your skills and energies elsewhere.

You certainly don't "need" the ability to leave comments in order to get started. Even though there are a large number of low-quality questions that seem to require clarification, there are still plenty that do not and are ready to be answered right out of the gate. If you answer these questions, you will gain reputation rather quickly. It only takes 5 upvotes on an answer to gain commenting privileges, so one very good answer will do that. Otherwise, you'll need a couple of pretty good answers. This is hardly a major barrier to entry. If you cannot find a couple of questions that can be answered without requiring clarification-seeking comments, then this website has utterly failed and it isn't worth you earning any reputation here anyway.

The only other time that a low reputation would prevent you from contributing is in a couple of isolated cases where a question has been "protected" to protect against spam. In this question, you make it sound like that's a rather common occurrence, but it absolutely is not. Only a tiny fraction of our many questions are protected. It certainly is not the case that all "old" questions get protected. Only questions where there has been a demonstrated problem with spammy answers get protected, and in this case, there are almost always a glut of answers already, so it's extremely unlikely that you (or anyone else) would have anything new to contribute anyway. Once again, we prefer that you channel your energy into other questions, especially ones that have not yet been answered. (The age of the question doesn't matter, only whether or not it's been adequately answered.)

As for the issue of voting, I don't see how this is important to you getting started, either. The idea of voting is to rank content based on its accuracy and usefulness. While a new user might be an expert programmer and therefore able to rate the accuracy of content, they will not be familiar with how Stack Overflow works and what its expectations for quality are, so they are not in a good position yet to cast votes. This is why we don't allow brand-new users to vote. Not being able to vote doesn't keep you from participating, though.

Finally, there's a persistent myth that the only people who can get started on Stack Overflow are expert programmers, capable of answering "high-level" questions. Again, this is absolutely false. We regularly have new users join that earn a bunch of reputation quickly by answering the low-hanging fruit of questions. You don't have to be an expert programmer to start here. There are still plenty of "easy" questions, and there always will be. Even if the easy questions about existing technologies have already been asked and answered (they haven't, but let's suppose for the sake of argument that they have), new technologies are being invented every day, so there will naturally be plenty of new questions about those, many (most?) of them relatively straightforward.

Furthermore, if you're adept at using Google, you can answer pretty much 90% of the questions here. This isn't a research-based site. Questions and answers here don't normally break new ground. In other words, we're more like an encyclopedia than a research journal. While it's true that we discourage questions where the answers are trivially Googleable, the keyword there is "trivially". The vast majority of questions are seeking answers that already exist in other forms; your job as an answerer is just to find that information and package it up in a way that is understandable and relevant to the precise question that is being asked.

I have no way of sharing this with the community because I am not allowed to comment AND it's explicitly stated that 'clarifications & comments' are not appropriate to post as 'answers'.

This is the one part of your objections that is valid. New users are not in an especially good position to improve existing answers by making corrections.

Of course, the idea is that you should be able to suggest an edit to the answer to fix the mistake. Anyone can submit edits, including anonymous users, so reputation is completely irrelevant there.

Unfortunately, in practice, edits to code are often rejected by reviewers, because we cannot guarantee that reviewers are experts in the relevant language/technology, making them unable to review edits for technical accuracy. Anything that isn't obviously correct is probably going to be rejected.

Yes, this is done because of spam and garbage. You seem to dismiss this concern out of hand, as if it is overblown or obsolete, but let me assure you that it is not. We get an amazingly large amount of spam and garbage. The issue is, you simply don't see it because established users and moderators do a stupendous job of rejecting and deleting this. Spam has a half-life measured in seconds on Stack Overflow. That's great, but it's very different than it being non-existent.

A large number of the suggested edits that we get from new and anonymous users are simply vandalism. I have no idea why, really, but that's the reality. As a result, reviewers are reluctant to approve edits that make non-trivial changes to a post, especially to the code sample(s) in a post.

I wish there were a better system for this, but there isn't. You can improve your chances by writing detailed edit summaries, but that still isn't a guarantee. Reviewers work quickly when reviewing suggested edits, and good suggestions sometimes do fall through the cracks, rejected because they look like something that is potentially harmful.

As such, in the status quo, you really have little choice but to gain a token amount of reputation before you can suggest improvements to existing posts. Again, though, I say "token" here because that's really what it is. The barrier to entry is extremely low. A couple of good answers and you have commenting privileges so that you can suggest improvements directly. Don't make this out to be a bigger deal than it is.

Practically, though, it makes being a new programmer and new member of StackOverflow unnecessarily frustrating as it paints you into a corner where you must violate the rules in order to participate at all.

Please don't violate the rules or attempt to find "workarounds". I can promise you that will just lead to more frustration. For example, if you post a bunch of non-answers in the answer box because the system doesn't allow you to leave comments, those non-answers will be deleted, the system will notice you post a bunch of unwelcome garbage, and your answering privileges will be significantly curtailed. Now, you've effectively prevented yourself from gaining privileges by trying to subvert the system, rather than just working within it. At this point, no one will be able to help you. This would be the only scenario when it is truly "frustrating" to be a new member, and it's only caused by you flouting our rules.

There is nothing frustrating about finding well-posed questions and answering them. Or about being the person to ask those well-posted questions. Either will get you reputation surprisingly quickly. It is how everyone else got started, since the very beginning of this website, and it is still what all of us would prefer to spend our time doing. Commenting, editing, and moderation are still all secondary, done only out of necessity.

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    I can't agree with you regarding the meaning of comments. Yes, sometimes they are used to ask a clarifying question. And no, not all the questions that require clarification are bad. People who are new(er) to the site may not have the same question-asking skill as those who's been using it for a while so they might ask the question in incomplete format just because they don't know better. They learn, and we, the SO community, teach them by asking clarifying questions among other things.
    – Andrey
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 3:20
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    Also, comments can be a way of arguing the answer - like I'm doing right now :)
    – Andrey
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 3:20
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    And sometimes you leave a comment because you don't have a full answer but have a suggestion that might help the OP figure it out on their own - this doesn't qualify for an answer and as I've learned on my own experience is often down-voted if posted as such. In this case comments section below the question is perfect place for a suggestion
    – Andrey
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 3:22
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    @Andrey Arguing the answer is a subset of clarification; you're just clarifying in a confrontational way. Yes, leaving suggestions or mini-answers in the comments is a common use case, but not one that we wish to encourage. We want people to leave full answers, which is why we funnel them to the answer box. Using comments as a way to avoid downvotes is an abuse of the feature. And while it may be true that asking questions is hard and clarifications are a necessarily evil, it is also a fundamental fact that questions that require clarification are not good questions by SO standards.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 3:52
  • Length of a comment thread is a pretty good heuristic for knowing when a question needs to be closed as "unclear" or lacking an MCVE. This isn't a tutorial site on asking questions, although there is a chat mentoring program going on for precisely that.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 3:55
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    Fully agree that the "needing to be an expert" aspect is not an issue. I've built my paltry rep by learning a specific but popular framework, and finding questions I could answer based around that. You don't have to be an expert, but it can certainly help. That said, find a niche you can fill and have at it.
    – MattD
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 3:55
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    "We regularly have new users join that earn a bunch of reputation quickly by answering the low-hanging fruit of questions" -- I agree with most everything in this answer, except that this quoted statement glosses over one of the biggest problems on Stack Overflow: the deluge of duplicate questions, which new users are always rushing to answer specifically so they can up their reputation points quickly. Yes, if you look, there are some easy, not-yet-answered questions. But these are outnumbered by the vast quantity of bad questions (incl. dupes). New users have to fight to get the good ones Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 4:07
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    I agree with everything you say, except dragging that old “it’s how everyone else got started” canard. It’s true, but a lot of high-rep users were active on the site in the early years when rules were looser. They continue to receive reputation for 8 year old questions (and their answers) that would be closed within minutes if they were posted today! Getting rep can be a lot tougher today – especially if you’re active in the PHP slums – but it’s a worthwhile endeavour. (Now, having read the comments, I realize I’m echoing what @PeterDuniho said above!)
    – miken32
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 2:46
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    Well, you can call it a "canard", but I believe it's 100% true. It might the difference between a user with 100k rep and one with 20k rep, but that difference doesn't matter as far as the system is concerned. You have all the privileges you're ever going to get once you reach 20k, and if you provide good answers to questions starting today, reaching 20k is still a very attainable goal. I don't think there's that much of a fight to get the good ones. Most of the questions I've answered in recent years have been unanswered when I found them, and my gun isn't particularly fast.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 6, 2017 at 12:10
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    This very thorough answer would benefit from an executive summary
    – C8H10N4O2
    Commented Sep 21, 2017 at 2:37
  • Pretty sure the summary is the first paragraph. Feel free to suggest an abstract if you are so inspired. "Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte.", as Blaise Pascal would have said.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 21, 2017 at 10:01
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    "This is literally a non-problem, although it is a complaint that we get on a semi-regular basis." -- some folks might think that a repeated issue brought up specifically by the members of the community which it effects is actually a problem. But you know, they do say that admitting it's a problem is the hardest part Commented Nov 2, 2017 at 21:53
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Spammers and bots would quickly overwhelm the good people of Stack Overflow if every new account could comment. It's sad, it sucks, and this is why we cannot have nice things.

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    This should be a comment... oh wait...this is funny, isn't it?
    – user4639281
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 1:55
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    There you go, you asked a question, began a productive conversation, posted an answer of your own to further the conversation that 10 other people found useful, and now you've got double-digit rep. I guess you were able to contribute to the community after all :-)
    – bmosov01
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 4:06
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    @bmosov01 You don't gain or lose rep from meta posts.
    – Daedalus
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 5:35
  • @bmosov01 I used this as a loophole, though. It doesn't truly contribute beneficially to the community unless it leads to a change in policy (or at least some admins rethinking their biases). This is why I think the system is promoting the wrong type of behavior. New users who ask pointless questions get 'reputation' faster than new users who attempt to follow the spirit of the rules. I don't have an easy solution to it. Perhaps having established members vouch for new members to help eliminate bots but allow new users some voice? Commented Nov 2, 2017 at 21:45
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I don't know enough to be answering the high-level questions yet, but I really shouldn't be asking 'new' questions to which I can easily google the answers because they have already been asked.

Is it really the case that all your programming questions are answered easily with a web search?

More than likely, there are many questions you have which are not easily answered with a web search. Start by asking those.

For answers, you can certainly try to come up with an answer, but of course you'll need to do some testing / research / verification to be sure it does answer the question. This is one recommended way to learn something in more detail — which in turn will teach you enough that you have better answers to future questions.

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    "Is it really the case that all your programming questions are answered easily with a web search?" Pretty much, yeah.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 3:54
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    As long as you program in a widely used language, 99.999% of the questions do already have an answer. Yet you see them asked over and over again on stack overflow because some people don't know or don't care about searching.
    – Theolodis
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 4:59
  • @Theolodis is spot on: if you're doing your due diligence in looking for answers before asking 'new' questions, usually you can piece together the solution. It is a rarity to need a unique solution to a difficult, unthought of problem as a beginning programmer. I get that spammers are a problem, I truly do. I also think 99% of the folks answering this incredulously joined stackoverflow before this was a rule and thus never had issues with it. Or perhaps they repeatedly ask the same questions without putting forth any effort to use the existing resources The system rewards the wrong behaviors Commented Nov 2, 2017 at 21:41

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