55

I can't seem to understand the reason(s) why my flags (5 in a row) were declined but the actual flagged comments removed; this is not the first time I've realised that and it happens with no apparent logical nor clearly stated reason and that gives the impression that it was again a very deliberate decision by the moderator who took those actions: I might be wrong and stand to be corrected so as to learn from the current situation for the future.

If my flags were declined for genuine reasons (which I will humbly like to know), either no evidence to support my claims as all being not constructive: why was an action taken by the moderator to removed the actual flagged contents?

Who does the credit goes to? In what sense? And why?

What could account for this?

Below is a screenshot showing the declined flags:

Screenshot showing the declined flags

The URLs to the Get the full URL in PHP answers in question whose comments I've flagged as not constructive are:

31 Get the full URL in PHP

14 Get the full URL in PHP

178 Get the full URL in PHP

This leaves me with so many unanswered questions and I will appreciate to have an insight on what truly transpired, with amend and recognition, if and where due, and correction(s) where I might have gotten it wrong (should that be the case).

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  • 2
    What was the contents of the comments? What made them "Not constructive"? Maybe the comments were removed for another reason.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 8:41
  • @Cerbrus: I can't remember the exact contents of the comments in question as at now but was very sure as at the time I was flagging them as such, they were truly not constructive. Perhaps an audit, as I've provided the URLs to the respective answers under which they were written be a great point to start, just as the moderator(s) involved. Understanding what actually happened will be of great help as I currently do not get the logic in favour. Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 9:00
  • I suspect you hit the underlying reason, mass-deleting comments on 6 year old Q+A does not exactly help dealing with the too-many-unanswered questions problem. You might want to consider putting the pitch-fork aside if you want hear back from the mod. Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 9:23
  • 5
    @HansPassant: Unfortunately that is not really the case; the first one was: [answered May 18 '14 at 1:54], the second, [answered Jul 20 '11 at 21:35], and the last one, [answered Jul 20 '11 at 21:35]. Should your reason stand (for the last two, as they are dated 2011); why were the comments then deleted? Thanks for your suggestion as well; I'm posting an edit in attempt to address that. Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 9:58
  • 10
    Might be relevant: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/291555/… I guess you should have flagged as Too Chatty.
    – rene
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 10:43
  • 29
    @rene gotta love when mods start applying new rules before posting them to meta. Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 15:06
  • 1
    FYI: "flaggers avoid using" the "Not Constructive" flag:
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 22:22
  • 7
    @Aaron, I hope you didn't miss the other part of the guidance that link provides: "moderators simply delete anything thus-flagged that should be deleted for any reason"
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 23:01
  • 8
    @AaronHall. Your answers below seem entirely at odds with the current guide to moderating comments. Why is that?
    – ekhumoro
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 23:07
  • @ekhumoro what part? Deleting? Decline and delete are not mutually exclusive - I believe I have deleted all comments that I declined flags on because of classification, so that they would be properly documented with the correct flag. Now you're being explicitly told to avoid the Not Constructive flag. Can I have your cooperation, pretty please? Andy, don't worry, I haven't missed any details here. Will you also cooperate with my request now?
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 23:18
  • Flags are declined and then acted upon anyway all the time; I wouldn't worry about it. It's up to you to decide whether flagging is still worth your time and attention. Commented Feb 28, 2017 at 0:00
  • 5
    @AaronHall. The second paragraph. Particularly the last sentence of it: "There are almost always more useful things to do than to stress about comments".
    – ekhumoro
    Commented Feb 28, 2017 at 0:30

5 Answers 5

17

Apparently they were declined under the premise that the back-end will now handle these flags differently… but I'm not buying.

The not constructive flag was meant to replace the off topic flag. Basically, it is used to flag any comment that goes off into a unrelated topic, like the weather on the Alps, when the post is about ML regression in C. A user that repeatedly go off topic on posts, SHOULD be warned by a moderator to change that behavior, which I believe is the intent of the change in how these flags are being handled by the system, the same way an user that is repeatedly rude, or a systematic spammer.

I really believe that even when those changes were live, the way to handle the flags by the moderators SHOULD NOT suffer changes (or at very least, wait until there is feedback), and those flags SHOULD NOT have been declined either.

Now, if there's a belief there should be a change, it SHOULD have been publicized before such a thing happens, not just unilaterally changing the way the entirety of the Stack Exchange user base knows about the system.

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    This post utilizes the RFC 2119 keywords to indicate required levels...
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 21:13
  • 9
    Hey, what's the weather over there Braiam?
    – Tunaki
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 21:17
  • 1
    @Tunaki same old, same old
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 21:18
  • 1
    [ citation needed ] Commented Feb 28, 2017 at 16:47
25

That the flag dialog is too complicated and stupid is no news

The solution however is not to start trying to make sense out of all these different types (declining valid flags), if a comment is not useful it is:

Non-constructive, Too chatty and Obsolete

Yeah we probably should check more then one?, but it's a radio button?, hmm...

Please don't expect user to be trained mods (or experienced meta users) to evaluate whether it's more too chatty or maybe a little bit more obsolete. This is over complicating an simple action as flagging a useless comment.

Let me suggest a more simple evaluation strategy for mods (which is in line what we hope it will be in the future)

Comment is rude/abusive or borderline rude/abusive --> Accept any flag (all description are valid even rude abusive since it's always subjective)

Comment is not useful --> Accept any flag except "Rude/Abusive" flag

If this create a problem with mods auto-flags please raise a feature request on meta related to this problem (maybe raise auto-flags only on Abusive??) but do not try to make sense of what is more too chatty then non-constructive by declining flags and with that alienating users to use the system.

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    As a moderator, I find that “obsolete” vs the other flag reasons is a very useful signal. Obsolete comments are pretty routine and I wish there was a way for them to be handled automatically. Other types of flags require different ways of looking at the situation as they indicate that somebody has done something wrong. Please do not conflate “obsolete” with other flags. I don't mind if somebody uses the wrong flag occasionally but having to puzzle out what is going on all the time would be painful. Commented Feb 28, 2017 at 18:02
  • 2
    @Gilles No doubt everyone tries to flags what they believe most represent the issue, it's not our intention to make your job harder, but the flip side is that mods needs also to make our job easy; to deny a obsolete flag because it's more too chatty does not benefit anyone, we just find our self on meta discussing the difference where often both reasons will fit and the end result in any case will always be the same Commented Feb 28, 2017 at 19:56
  • 2
    While at it... same care needs to be taken when handling VLQ and NAA flags on answers since the community is a confused on that issue also and simpler solution could be desirable. Commented Feb 28, 2017 at 19:56
  • 7
    I agree that mods shouldn't nitpick on flags. Some distinctions are important (don't flag a comment-as-answer as spam, because spam carries a strong penalty), others aren't (I don't know what the distinction is between VLQ and NAA — it depends on who you ask — and I want to get rid of that distinction). Commented Feb 28, 2017 at 20:19
-39

Maybe we should just stop deleting comments unless they are actually either spam or abuse? Think about it.

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    Quick, somebody get Servy and a bunch of others to have a drawn-out debate here.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Feb 28, 2017 at 3:01
-46

OK, let me try a different answer.

I'm asking for the community to flag relatively benign comments like "thank you" as "too chatty" instead of "not constructive".

We have the problem of persistently rude users. I suspect they may be skirting the generally accepted criteria for "Rude" flags, and that we can find them with "Not Constructive" flags.

The system is already flagging the "Not Constructive" comments for follow-up,

If a user’s comments are consistently flagged as rude/abusive or not constructive, a moderator flag is raised.

and I think this is a good thing.

Please improve mine and my fellow moderators' signal to noise ratio by making this very small adjustment to your flagging.

If you do, I'm sure my decline ratio will go down, and I think we'll be continually better positioned to deal with rude users.

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  • 38
    Posting a clear, featured announcement on meta.so with a statement announcing the change, significantly before starting to decline flags, would have been a much more effective first step instead of just starting to decline flags. Also a good idea is to add a tooltip to the flag reasons that briefly explains what the difference is, particularly given the change in behavior. People just starting to get flags declined should not be the first way that a reasonably aware user (i.e. reads featured/hot meta posts) finds out that there has been a change.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 20:47
  • 22
    Just starting to decline flags, without such proactive measures to inform users in advance, guarantees that the situation will blow up into multiple questions on meta with people wondering what is going on.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 20:50
  • 19
    Judging by the comments on your other answer, the other mods may or may not agree with this decision. Did you guys discuss this at all, or is this your policy you want to get going? Seriously, I 1) don't flag that many comments to begin with and 2) don't mind the change you're requesting, but it feels like it's pointless to change flagging habits if only one mod is thinking this way. Brad's comment reads like he intends to continue flag handling as he has been, which could encourage other users to just continue flagging as they have been. That's if they even see this post and your plea.
    – Kendra
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 21:12
  • 13
    The only somewhat official description of what the "not constructive" flag is meant for that I can find is from Jeff Atwood's answer and comment, and it does not agree with you. Based on that, "too chatty" is a strict subset of "not constructive", and any "not constructive" flag that could have been "too chatty" should be marked as helpful: it is not rude, but does nothing to get the post improved. Unless there's an announced change, that's the best description we have, and flags should be handled accordingly.
    – user743382
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 22:00
  • 3
    @Kendra: The only discussion that has taken place thus far is "people use 'not constructive' in so many different ways that are not indicative of a larger behavioral problem that we are getting far too many false positives with system 'too many flagged comments' flags"
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Feb 28, 2017 at 4:08
-53

In some cultures, including where I come from, "Not Constructive" is frequently used as an understated euphemism for "Very Bad" - recognizing this, we're getting a signal for followup on such flags.

Here is one such comment that was flagged as Not Constructive:

Thank you SO MUCH for this. Sometimes the easiest answers are the ones that are rarely spelled out in articles. This helped me get what I needed.

The system will tell us moderators that there's a problem here that we may need to follow up on after deleting it.

Is there?

For this kind of benign comment, I don't think so. Flag it as "Too chatty" and a moderator will agree with you and delete it, and we'll be done with it.

Going forward, I'm declining "Not Constructive" flags on such benign comments.

Please see this related new question for further direction on flagging.

Antonymns of Constructive:

I see I'm getting pushback on the semantics.

According to Thesaurus.com, here are some antonyms of "constructive":

  • fruitless
  • impotent
  • incapable
  • unproductive
  • useless
  • worthless
  • destructive
  • hurting
  • injurious
  • negative
  • unhelpful

These are all potential interpretations of the phrase, "Not Constructive".

The past practice of classifying benign comments under this category is semantically incorrect, in my humble opinion. And due to the new moderation mechanisms, I want to narrow the set of comments that fall under this category, to the exclusion of benign comments.

So... Are you trying, with your edit, to say that the "thank you" style comments are productive, helpful, and of worth?

No, I am saying that they are not Not Constructive - instead, please classify them as "Too Chatty".

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  • 27
    I have never, ever heard of "not constructive" having such strong connotations in any culture, ever. And I know you said "understated euphemism" - no, it's not even close to that. The system does alert us if enough flags are raised over a period of time, but the vast majority of such alerts get dismissed with little, if any, follow-up.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 17:00
  • 10
    So... Are you trying, with your edit, to say that the "thank you" style comments are productive, helpful, and of worth? If that's the case, then we likely shouldn't be flagging them at all, should we? I get wanting us to flag with a different flag, but a "thank you" comment that adds nothing to a post or discussion of a post does not at all seem constructive to me. Your list of antonyms of "constructive" doesn't seem to help your point, to my eyes.
    – Kendra
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 17:10
  • 15
    Not sure what point you're trying to make here. Out of all the words listed, only "destructive", "hurting", "injurious" and "negative" carry those strong connotations - a net negative. The rest of the words are net zero at worst (or at best, depending on how you want to look at it) - they don't accomplish anything, neither helpful nor harmful; in other words, benign. "not constructive" does not automatically mean "destructive". Something can be neither constructive nor destructive.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 17:13
  • 14
    After reading this answer, I have no idea what kind of comment Aaron would want us to use a "Not Constructive" flag on. How can a mere comment ever be strongly harmful?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 17:15
  • 7
    @Mark Amery: When it's "rude or offensive", of course ;)
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 17:15
  • 4
    @Mark Comments like "Don't just dump your code on us" or something, I'd say. Not literally rude, but not really nice either.
    – Tunaki
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 17:26
  • 4
    "I am saying that they are not Not Constructive" - isn't that the same as saying that they are constructive, which they plainly aren't? I realise that that's something of a simplification - it's fairly normal in English for constructs of the form "not $adjective" to carry some connotation besides what a literal, logical reading of the words would imply - but you seem to be the only person seeing any such connotations in this case.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 17:26
  • 22
    You've spent way too much time caring about which comment flag to use instead of just deleting them and moving on.
    – enderland
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 17:38
  • 6
    Except they don't, because action on those auto generated flags still requires moderator intervention. It's not an "auto ban" system at all.
    – enderland
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 17:40
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    This answer is equivalent to arguing about how to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.
    – user439793
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 17:44
  • 31
    This is not how I've always handled these flags. If a comment is flagged and needs to be deleted, delete it. If it doesn't, then decline the flag. There are pretty fuzzy boundaries between how people use "not constructive", "too chatty", and even "rude or offensive" comment flags, and which flag is used doesn't materially impact the person being flagged. I personally wouldn't be as strict about what kind of flag is used on a comment, as long as that comment really did need to be deleted.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 18:12
  • 15
    @AaronHall - The "too many rude / NC comments" auto-flag is a little noisy at present, but that's not so much the fault of inappropriate flag usage as it is the design of the auto-flag itself. We've had conversations with SE employees about improving it, and as Tunaki suggests the best initial approach may be to focus it on "rude or offensive" flags. That auto-flag doesn't do anything to people, it just provides a potential indicator that we might need to look into something. If it's wrong, we're to decline it so that SE can gather stats and tweak it.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 18:27
  • 6
    @AaronHall, based on feedback here from both users and moderators, it seems you are making a decision that either the community doesn't agree with or was not aware of. There are links to both sides of the argument through out this post. Comments are pretty low on the list of issues moderators should be worrying about, especially if the end result is deletion. Perhaps, instead of invoking your "mandate", again, it would be better to get feedback on this.
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 19:16
  • 9
    "I'm asking for the community to flag benign comments like "thank you" as "too chatty" instead of "not constructive" - and I don't think that's a big ask." - Your post does not read like that at all. I'm not opposed at all to that change, but the way you are communicating your intention to unilaterally change the existing guidance is off putting
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 19:17
  • 4
    @AaronHall, If your argument is about rude users then I think you should be worried about flagging comments as "Rude", not "not constructive". There is a difference between what you ask for in the post - flagging certain not constructive comments as too chatty - and identifying rude users.
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2017 at 19:55

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