129

While I was trying to understand some question, it got a few upvotes.

So it got me thinking - these upvoters probably understood it and thought it was good. So it would be great if they edited it in addition!

I think this can be programmed in the following way:

  • If the question has a close-vote (or two) as "unclear"
  • and the user is upvoting it
  • and the user has editing privileges

then make a popup window that says:

Some users thought that this question is unclear. Please consider improving it.

I remember that similar UI is used for:

You have been voting only on answers - please consider voting on questions too.

And for downvoting:

Please consider adding a comment to explain what is wrong with this question.

(I don't remember the exact wording, because I haven't gotten them for a while.)

So, would such a popup help? If yes, maybe it would be good in additional situations (e.g. close-voted for being opinion-based - the wording in the popup properly adjusted)?

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  • 18
    @Paulie_D - They aren't required but there is a pop-up suggesting it. The OP is only asking if the system can make a similar suggestion for folks up-voting a potentially unclear question.
    – BSMP
    Commented Dec 17, 2015 at 16:32
  • 4
    But If the upvoter understood it...it wasn't unclear to them so they didn't need to edit it.
    – Paulie_D
    Commented Dec 17, 2015 at 17:04
  • 35
    People upvote and don't feel the need to edit the question, and because of that other people don't understand the question, and don't answer. This is the problem I am trying to solve.
    – anatolyg
    Commented Dec 17, 2015 at 17:22
  • 3
    As I said, if they upvote they also consider the question understandable as it is...why would they then feel the need to edit something they already understand?
    – Paulie_D
    Commented Dec 17, 2015 at 18:16
  • 30
    @Paulie_D If people only edit questions they don't understand, we've gotten ourselves into quite a mess. Commented Dec 17, 2015 at 18:17
  • 34
    Put another way, the only time an edit makes sense is when the editor understands the question but senses that others do not. Commented Dec 17, 2015 at 18:18
  • 1
    If people don't understand they shouldn't edit, if they do understand they don't need to.
    – Paulie_D
    Commented Dec 17, 2015 at 18:18
  • 27
    @Paulie_D that leaves no one to edit anything. We should just do away with edits altogether. Commented Dec 17, 2015 at 18:19
  • 26
    @Paulie_D so if I understand your position, you're categorically opposed to edits by anyone other than the OP? I think you're in the minority on that one. Commented Dec 17, 2015 at 18:20
  • 17
    @Paulie_D: Nowhere in the question is the word "answer" used... The OP is asking if someone understands the question well enough to upvote it, and someone else thinks it is unclear enough to flag it as unclear, perhaps it would make sense for the upvoter to help the question-asker to clarify his/her question.
    – R_Kapp
    Commented Dec 17, 2015 at 18:26
  • 21
    @Paulie_D I've seen it happen to me many times - in areas I spent a lot of time working on when I glance at a question I may say based on couple words/half line of code "Oh... you are trying to solve that - I know exactly what you talking about but I luckily just did not need to solve it - interesting and useful". Now anyone else who did not spend months with particular framework/tool/whatever may have no idea what such question even mean - it would be good reminder to me to step back and see if anyone else can see same meaning as I did see. Commented Dec 17, 2015 at 18:27
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    @Paulie_D: Please bear in mind that questions should be useful for future readers. So if you understand the question and think its worth upvoting & answering but others thought that it was so unclear as to be close-worthy then you should consider taking that little bit of extra effort to improve the question. Of course, that doesn't mean you need to waste precious time polishing up the question before you write your answer. OTOH, if some readers think the question's unclear it might be wise to make a comment requesting clarification to confirm that you have, in fact, interpreted it correctly.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Dec 18, 2015 at 5:57
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    May be someone who's upvoted should edit this question as @Paulie_D doesn't seem to understand (nice one Honk).
    – user692942
    Commented Dec 18, 2015 at 10:03
  • 6
    I like this idea. Such a message might also lead to the user reconsidering their upvote, which could also be a good outcome.
    – Roland
    Commented Dec 18, 2015 at 10:11
  • 2
    Following up on Erick's "Put another way" comment: Exactly. I often edit when I have to re-read parts of the question to 'get' it. I.e. I now understand it but want the reading/understanding for others to go smoother.
    – Jan Doggen
    Commented Dec 18, 2015 at 15:07

3 Answers 3

45

I support this basic idea, although it seems to reveal a bit of extra information about the CV process that low-rep users don't necessarily have, normally. Is that intended, or should we perhaps limit displaying this only to those who can normally see close votes anyway?

I would say we should not limit it, since a large source of careless upvotes is generally from users with 15-3000 rep, whether because they are less experienced with moderation, because there are so many of them, or both. Exposing the existence of 1+ close votes of a specific type under certain circumstances is not terribly dangerous. (For that matter, we already do expose the existence of dupe-votes/flags, as well as custom freeform close reasons, to all and sundry without any restrictions at all.)

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    I think the benefits of improving questions far outweigh the disclosure of close vote information here. IMO, the statement "Some users feel this question is unclear" communicates it in natural language well enough that only users familiar with the CV process will understand what it technically means, while users who aren't, well, exactly what it says on the tin (and that's all that really matters, right?).
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 18, 2015 at 4:34
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    What BoltClock said. We don't need to reveal all the nitty gritty details of the close votes, just give a general statement. FWIW, when attempting to get clarification on borderline questions I sometimes write a comment like "You need to add X to your question or it's in danger of being put on hold", where X is relevant code, the error message, desired output, etc. That statement doesn't reveal the question's current close vote count, but it lets the OP know that they need to fix their question. If I don't get an adequate response from the OP then I CV &/or downvote.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Dec 18, 2015 at 6:07
  • 4
    Close votes are not any sort of sensitive information, they are already exposed through the API even to anonymous visitors. The reasons to not display them always may have to do with performance, or with avoiding noise in comments (why is this being voted to close??? after a stray close vote that won't do anything). Hopefully, the message will channel the energy into editing, rather than into comments "why do people think it's unclear? It's clear to me".
    – user3717023
    Commented Dec 19, 2015 at 20:17
35

I might be a pessimist, but this is my explanation of your observation.

Confused Guy (posts question): I want to model a nuclear reactor using expression templates. It has to be very fast because I'm going to model a lot of very complicated processes. According to Donald Knuth's The Art of Computer Programming, I should use a prime number for my hashing but I don't understand how that works in the context of nuclear reactors and expression templates. Can anybody please explain? PS: I need code by tomorrow.

Long Term User (votes to close): Unclear what you're asking. Please clarify your specific problem or add additional details to highlight exactly what you need. As it's currently written, it’s hard to tell exactly what you're asking. See the How to Ask page for help clarifying this question.

Happy User (up-votes in excitement): Oh my God, he is modeling a nuclear reactor! Nuclear reactors are awesome! Also, he is using expression templates and reads TAOCP, he must be a very smart guy.

In the status quo, the story ends here. The last two actions may be repeated a few times but eventually, enough “Long Term User”s will come by and the question be finally closed.

Now, this is what I fear might happen in the future.

System (to Happy User): Some users thought that this question is unclear. Please consider improving it.

Happy User (edits in eager to fulfill his mission): You can find more information about nuclear reactors on Wikipedia.

As I've said, I might be a pessimist.

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    The optimist in me says that review should never make it thru the queue. The pessimist says it will without a doubt pass the review queue. The realist agrees with the pessimist.
    – Becuzz
    Commented Dec 18, 2015 at 15:40
  • 3
    I agree with you on the "happy user" (third bullet).
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Dec 18, 2015 at 15:41
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    There are also those users who will assume that the lack of clarity was due to grammar or punctuation and will focus on that without doing anything related to the real issue.
    – Louis
    Commented Dec 18, 2015 at 15:45
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    @Louis Well, at least that wouldn't be harmful it would just not be as helpful as we'd like it to be.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 18, 2015 at 17:41
  • @Servy I see your point. I don't remember what the common wisdom is regarding making minor edits to posts that are so faulty they should be closed. I find such edits to be a waste of time, not just for the person who did the edit but those who may look at the question again, because of the bump or because it is nominated for reopening, and find it has not been improved significantly. The reopen queue features quite a few questions with pointless edits.
    – Louis
    Commented Dec 18, 2015 at 17:53
  • 1
    @Louis While many grammar/formatting edits are minor, plenty aren't. An edit significantly improving the grammar/formatting but not addressing the core confusion in the word choice (or whatever the core issue is) is at least not being harmful. If it just causes a bunch of edits that don't even improve anything, without even meaningfully improving things like grammar/formatting, then that would be a net harm of this feature.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 18, 2015 at 18:01
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    OP states that the pop-up should only occur if the user has editing privileges (> 2K rep); hopefully that should eliminate most of the "happy users", right? Or are you of the belief that a significant number of >2k rep users are also "happy users"?
    – R_Kapp
    Commented Dec 18, 2015 at 19:07
  • 1
    I agree that this could be a problem, but I'd like to try it anyway. We can check on the outcome of posts where this dialog was shown to see how users actually react. Commented Dec 20, 2015 at 2:06
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While I think this is a good idea, I'm a little concerned that it won't help much...

I strongly suspect that many of these upvotes have more to do with misguided lines of thought when it comes to voting:

  • downvotes are mean...
    • have a sympathy vote
  • I know the answer, so the question can't be that bad...
    • upvotes wildly off-topic question about baking cookies
  • and so on...

This is a step in the right direction, but I'm thinking that adding a little more guidance may be in order. Something like:

Some users thought that this question is unclear.
Are you sure that it shows research effort and that it is clear and useful?
If not, please consider improving it.

Still not sure if it would help much, most users who exhibit these behaviors are notorious for not reading the docs/tour/help pages...

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