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Feb 23, 2019 at 15:55 history edited pnuts CC BY-SA 4.0
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Sep 25, 2018 at 16:29 comment added devuxer @Ray, That's true...I just didn't like the "drive-by" downvotes, where people didn't give any indication why they didn't like the proposal. Then, once I edited/improved the proposal, I don't think many people noticed--or they still disagreed but didn't say anything. In any case, turned out to be a huge waste of time.
Sep 24, 2018 at 11:38 comment added Ray To be fair, I've learned in the past few day's a meta downvote is more of a I don't agree with your proposal, but not that it's not a valid question to bring up (as downvotes it would signal on main site). I still don't like that for discussions as I've no idea why they disagree (hence why you want the DISCUSSION).
Sep 24, 2018 at 3:45 comment added devuxer @Ray, Yup. I reckon what I experienced with this post is similar to what people experience on the main site. Definitely doesn't make me want to try again.
Sep 23, 2018 at 2:45 comment added Ray I think the massive negative votes for your suggestion probably inform you more than any comments or answer will. Every system worth it's salt which I've used to manage projects (SO is nothing more than a long running knowledge base project) has had some mechanism to merge issues/tickets. Yet why so much hostility? This gets at the core of the question of if there can there be an increase in utility without an equal incease toxicity? Will be nice to see if/how they can pull their heads out of the sand or whatever place they have them buried.
Apr 16, 2018 at 1:39 comment added devuxer @Patrice, I wasn't really targeting elitism. People are always going to be upset by the decisions of the community and moderators, and I don't think we can ever completely avoid that. What we can do is minimize unpleasant surprises. Such as, "Surprise! Your question looks like another question so we're closing it!" Or "Surprise! Your first ever question on this site just generated 3 downvotes with no one even leaving a comment to tell you why!" These are the kinds of things that I think upset and drive people away.
Apr 15, 2018 at 22:15 history edited devuxer CC BY-SA 3.0
Switched from feature-request to discussion and described latest thinking (which would otherwise be distributed through a bunch of comments)
Apr 15, 2018 at 17:13 comment added Patrice @devuxer I don't think users will be thinking we are less elitist if we don't dupe-close anymore but unclear-close instead. Isn't that just shifting the problem from one close reason to another? I don't see this changing much in terms of the 'elitist' vision a lot of new users have of Stack. Maybe this could fix how people see duplicates though. Not sure that's enough of a problem by itself it warrants fixing. I guess it depends if you want to fix the perception the community is elitist, or fix how people see duplicates
Apr 15, 2018 at 17:08 comment added devuxer @Patrice, Sorry, not "homework" per se. Technically, I would file that under "Unclear what you're asking". If it appears to everyone but the user that it's a duplicate, then that could be an indication that the question is not clear enough. Bottom line: while I do think we should ask the user if their question has already been answered, if the user cannot provide a viable reason why it's not, there should be recourse for moderators to still close the question.
Apr 15, 2018 at 16:59 comment added Patrice @devuxer but homework isn't a close reason. The question gets closed because it's a dupe, not because it's homework. I do agree getting a precise understanding of the system can be hard. It's likely scattered through a bunch of meta posts.
Apr 15, 2018 at 16:57 comment added devuxer @Patrice, fair point, but I didn't come across that in the help center (stackoverflow.com/help/duplicates), and it hasn't happened to me recently, so it's not easy to be 100% sure how things work. (A) If the user doesn't return within a certain number of days, by all means, closing is reasonable. (B) Then their question should be closed for another reason (e.g., "homework").
Apr 15, 2018 at 16:52 history edited devuxer
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Apr 15, 2018 at 16:52 comment added user3956566 @devuxer while I like your ideas - perhaps this would be better tagged as a discussion rather than a feature-request?
Apr 15, 2018 at 16:43 history edited devuxer CC BY-SA 3.0
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Apr 15, 2018 at 16:37 comment added Patrice @devuxer sorry if this sounds condescending...but you may want to be100% sure of how the duplicate system works before proposing to rehaul it so much? And while I get your point about not being great to close without the OP's consent.... How do you work with A) users who never come back to their questions? Or B) users who refuse to accept their posts are dupe, because they want a copy pasteable answer instead of understanding what they are doing wrong?
Apr 15, 2018 at 16:34 comment added devuxer @Patrice, I haven't had this happen in a while, so I'm actually not sure what happens these days. If it works the way you say, that's definitely preferable. As for the shame, there still may be shame, but there isn't the feeling that you were punished for your "wrong-doing". Closing without user consent, to me, is punitive.
Apr 15, 2018 at 16:25 comment added Patrice *as a duplicate,not supervisor. Silly autocorrect
Apr 15, 2018 at 16:16 history edited user3956566
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Apr 15, 2018 at 16:13 comment added Patrice @devuxer stop me if I am wrong, but when someone votes or flag a question as a supervisor, the OP is offered the chance to review and accept the dupe himself, no? The 5 close voters only come into play if the OP doesn't do this (and considering how many users never come back after asking their Q, this is necessary). I personally don't see how the issue is the closure though. If you are ashamed of not finding the dupe, how is merging vs closing as duplicate change that shame?
Apr 15, 2018 at 15:52 comment added devuxer @Patrice, I also think that if the system ask users whether the duplicate answers their question (rather than just coldly closing after 5 votes), that would help a lot. So, if there are five duplicate votes, the user is asked if the proposed duplicate has an answer that solves their problem. If so, it would be a lot more palatable to close their post.
Apr 15, 2018 at 15:48 comment added devuxer @Patrice, I suspect that merging as I defined it (where your question still remains intact and simply gets grouped with another on the same Q/A page) would result in fewer negative emotions. Hard to prove, of course, but that's my strong intuition.
Apr 15, 2018 at 15:32 comment added Patrice @devuxer oh 100%. I was just saying I wouldn't personally feel this way, so I was trying to zero in on what makes you feel this way to see if it can be tweaked. I don't think merging vs duplicating will help in changing that (not that it wouldn't be a bad change. Just thinking it won't fix that feelings issue)
Apr 15, 2018 at 15:29 comment added devuxer @Patrice, I agree that SO doesn't intend for anyone to feel shame when they post a duplicate, but I'm quite certain that it does. Even a downvote causes emotions in people. Having your post closed (which you may have worked hard to write) is not a good feeling. As I said in my post, I understand the reason for it, but that doesn't make me feel zero emotions. I'm not saying we need to try to prevent 100% of bad feelings--that's not realistic or desirable--but if there are things we can do to make SO more welcoming that don't sacrifice the goals of the community, we should.
Apr 15, 2018 at 15:24 comment added devuxer @Patrice, Ah OK, thanks for clarifying.
Apr 15, 2018 at 15:23 comment added Patrice @devuxer duple closing on meta doesn't require such an answer. Dupe voting on main does (unless both posts are from the same account, if memory serves)
Apr 15, 2018 at 15:23 comment added devuxer @BDL, I just tried to close this question as a duplicate of meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/366038/…, which currently has zero answers. The system did nothing to stop me. So, when you say "you can only close as duplicate if there is an upvoted or an accepted answer," you must mean "you should only...".
Apr 15, 2018 at 15:22 comment added Patrice One thing that I see that I know a lot of new users feel is the 'shame' of a duplicate post.but that is their feeling. stack doesn't discourage dupes, so posting one definitely isn't shameful. Why do you feel this way? I personally wouldn't. Maybe that is what needs changing? Whether the perception is correct or not, if it exists, it may be worth fixing?
Apr 15, 2018 at 7:53 comment added BDL @devuxer: You can only close as duplicate if there is an upvoted or an accepted answer in the target. How else would you measure quality? And as I already said: If the duplicate doesn't solve your problem, then it's not a duplicate. What I'm definitely against is having very similar answers just to tailor them exactly to ops problem. A NullPointerException is a NullPointerException. If you have basic debugging skills one should be able to find out why it happens.
Apr 15, 2018 at 0:26 history edited devuxer CC BY-SA 3.0
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Apr 15, 2018 at 0:18 history edited devuxer CC BY-SA 3.0
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Apr 15, 2018 at 0:08 history edited devuxer CC BY-SA 3.0
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Apr 14, 2018 at 22:59 comment added devuxer @BDL, when I click close, I see "This question has been asked before and already has an answer." It doesn't say, "This question has been asked before and already has at least one high quality answer or accepted answer." Two very different things in my opinion.
Apr 14, 2018 at 22:52 history edited devuxer CC BY-SA 3.0
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Apr 14, 2018 at 22:28 comment added devuxer @duplode and Modus Tollens, I agree, my tone could have been a lot better. I edited that paragraph to better reflect my thoughts and to hopefully distract less from my UI suggestion.
Apr 14, 2018 at 22:23 comment added BDL I agree that SO sometimes has a problem with including newbies. But I've never had the feeling that gender/race/etc has an impact on the question. For a majority of users asking questions in my field, I couldn't even tell which gender or race they have.
Apr 14, 2018 at 22:20 history edited devuxer CC BY-SA 3.0
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Apr 14, 2018 at 22:05 comment added Modus Tollens Maybe SO has an inclusitivity problem with users who don't want to be "included" in SO culture, but want their problem solved, right now. Who don't want to learn and adapt. Calling closing as duplicate "hostile" doesn't make things better.
Apr 14, 2018 at 21:46 answer added duplode timeline score: 2
Apr 14, 2018 at 21:20 comment added Braiam "What if the older question (the one that doesn't get closed) has no answers that solves your problem?" Then the system doesn't allows you to close as duplicate. There's no problem.
Apr 14, 2018 at 21:11 comment added duplode @Braiam As far as this feature request goes, the fourth paragraph (about the counter-productiveness of the duplicate closing) suggests otherwise, though it would be good to have confirmation of that point from devuxer.
Apr 14, 2018 at 21:06 comment added Braiam Merging implies closing as duplicate and moving all the answers towards the target question and locking the source. Merging is closing as duplicate on vitamins!
Apr 14, 2018 at 20:52 comment added Jean-François Fabre Mod I try to handle the duplicate more gently and that's it: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/352439/…
Apr 14, 2018 at 20:13 comment added Patrice How do you envision this working with multiple dupe targets for the same question?
Apr 14, 2018 at 20:04 comment added duplode Clarification: according to your suggestion, would merged questions remain open?
Apr 14, 2018 at 19:59 comment added BDL But in general, I'm not against "merging" duplicates instead of close-link to a duplicate.
Apr 14, 2018 at 19:58 comment added BDL What if the older question has no answers that solves your problem? If the older question doesn't answer your question, then it's not a duplicate and the newer question shouldn't be closed at all. The whole point of closing as duplicate is not to duplicate answers in multiple questions. But if the answers aren't the same there is no need to close.
Apr 14, 2018 at 19:58 comment added duplode "The UI of the duplicate system unnecessarily makes question authors feel like they did something wrong" would be a better motivation for this kind of proposal than "Closing posts as exact duplicates is hostile, counter-productive, and one of the reasons Stack Overflow has an inclusivity problem" -- the latter, I believe, overstates your case.
Apr 14, 2018 at 19:37 history asked devuxer CC BY-SA 3.0