Skip to main content
39 events
when toggle format what by license comment
Jul 28, 2017 at 22:58 comment added Wolfie @toonarmycaptain a draft status question could work somewhat like Code Golf's question sandbox, which is there so that "users can get feedback on prospective challenges they wish to post to the main page"
Jul 28, 2017 at 17:11 comment added Servy @LordFarquaad If you're going to do that you don't need live people at all. Just write up a guide and link people to it. That scales infinitely, unlike mentorship like this would be. The point of this answer is that if you want to have mentors you need some way of sharing the draft. My other answer (along with many of the other answers here, that I agree with) covers why I think having mentors in the first place isn't a good idea.
Jul 28, 2017 at 16:36 comment added Lord Farquaad @Servy what if instead of drafts, there were a few pre-made questions which had a some common mistakes in them that are only available for this purpose? Rather than fix up a completely unique question each time, the mentors could walk the new users through these pre-laid mistakes, and anything left unclear that's specific to the user's question can be asked after. This seems easier to implement than a "draft" mechanism, and there'd only need to be a few of them.
Jul 28, 2017 at 11:40 comment added ValarMorghulis A very valid point. There will have to be a mechanism for creating and sharing a draft, and this draft will have to be readable in order to quickly give effective feedback on the structure of the question.
Jul 27, 2017 at 10:41 comment added Jonathan +1 for draft questions, but I would like to see an associated review queue to handle them, rather than a chatroom.
Jul 27, 2017 at 4:34 comment added Jon Ericson Staff @PaulCrovella: I think this is ought to be a "no beatings" sort of room. ;-) But more to your point, if people actually try to paste lots of code or use gists, that's a good sign we'll need to support drafts. One common solution on other sites is to use a sandbox meta question.
Jul 27, 2017 at 4:31 comment added Jon Ericson Staff If the aim of the test is to gage interest for possible future work, I don't think it will matter too much if there are a few missing features. In fact, that's more or less the point. If people find this useful and interesting without drafts, that'll be good to know. If people don't bother using chat at all, that's also good to know. (See also: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_product)
Jul 27, 2017 at 1:18 comment added Rob Mod @JonEricson While I understand what you're saying, testing out how well received a feature will be - without properly implementing said feature to make it useful - will yield questionable results at best.
Jul 27, 2017 at 1:01 comment added user3942918 @JonEricson Do those rooms encourage users to paste large swaths of text/code in chat itself or to use an outside service like gist? Every room with a guideline on it that I'm aware of picks outside services, and it's almost always new users who need it beaten into them to use one.
Jul 26, 2017 at 20:36 comment added Jon Ericson Staff @Servy: I respectfully disagree. I think a draft mechanism would be very helpful, but it's not clear to me that it's a necessary requirement. Chat is very useful for abstract discussions and it will still be useful once a question is live on the site. Many sites already do mentoring in their main chat room. The point of this test is to focus on mentoring exclusive to the other purposes of chat.
Jul 26, 2017 at 20:08 comment added Servy @JonEricson If you're going to honestly tell me that you need to run a month long experiment involving hundreds of users in order to figure out that in order for users to critique a potential question from a new user that the mentors need to see the prospective question, then that's...pretty absurd. Now if you said you weren't sure about the specifics of how to implement a native integration (I had a number of open ended questions on the subject in my answer) then sure, but the idea that there needs to be some way for the mentors to see a draft of the question doesn't take an experiment.
Jul 26, 2017 at 20:06 comment added Servy @JonEricson I understand that. I'm saying that if you are trying to do research into whether or not a mentoring service might be useful, and you're running a small scale test to determine if it is, then you're going to need to some way of sharing a draft in that test. You don't need to run an experiment to figure out that in order for someone to critique a possible question and help someone improve it they need to see what they've done so far. There's no possible way for them to provide meaningful help otherwise. Knowing that doesn't take an experiment.
Jul 26, 2017 at 19:51 comment added Jon Ericson Staff @Servy: I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding the proposal. It's not for a mentoring service, but research to see if a mentoring service might be used and useful. A valid (and very useful) result would be to find out if it isn't going to work at all. Getting sharable drafts out of the deal would be gravy. (And it might be that we need sharable drafts to even test interest in mentoring. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.)
Jul 26, 2017 at 17:49 comment added Servy @JonEricson So you think we should run an experimental mentoring service to see if having an integrated draft feature would be useful to SO even if there isn't a mentoring service? That makes no sense. If you want to find out if drafts would be useful for SO even if there isn't a mentoring service, then how does this experiment help you figure that out? And what's the point of running a mentoring service without any way of sharing drafts when we know, for sure that the mentors will need to see drafts of posts? That experiment doesn't tell you what you want to know.
Jul 26, 2017 at 17:46 history edited user6655984 CC BY-SA 3.0
deleted 1 character in body
Jul 26, 2017 at 17:46 comment added Jon Ericson Staff @Servy: I think better draft support would be useful anyway. But we don't have the resources to do everything. So the point of the experiment is that it's something we can do without burning dev time that could be used for more certain wins.
Jul 26, 2017 at 17:18 comment added Servy @JonEricson Well I mean, we don't really need them now. If SO created sharable drafts they wouldn't have much use because there's no real place to use them. When this rolls out that would create the need for such a draft, and this feature will almost certainly be net harmful if there isn't some means of sharing a draft (whether integrated into the site or not). That doesn't mean that SO needs drafts, it means that a mentoring service needs drafts. If you need to run an experiment to figure out that a mentoring service requires some means of sharing the draft though...
Jul 26, 2017 at 17:12 comment added Petter Friberg Another temporary solution during testing if mentor is >10k is that OP post and then delete it until question is fixed
Jul 26, 2017 at 16:52 comment added PM 2Ring FWIW, we occasionally get people in the Python Chat room attempting to use use GitHub-style triple backticks to format code that they post, which obviously doesn't work here. One of our ROs recently created An Illustrated Guide To Formatting Code In Chat which is pinned to our star board, but we still generally need to shove it into people's faces before they actually look at it...
Jul 26, 2017 at 16:50 comment added PM 2Ring @PetterFriberg Sure, Markup on Github is very similar to Stack Exchange's, but it's not identical, and that could lead to confusion. But I guess that for most things, it's close enough. Even so, I doubt that making newbies create a Github account in order to join this mentoring chat room would be very practical.
Jul 26, 2017 at 16:18 comment added Jon Ericson Staff @Servy: You aren't wrong. Perhaps this research will be just the thing to propel us to implement shareable drafts.
Jul 26, 2017 at 16:18 comment added Petter Friberg @PM2Ring just for information, github (3rd party) has fairly similar formatting example of github and final meta question
Jul 26, 2017 at 16:11 comment added PM 2Ring The mentors definitely need to be able to see the draft of the question, and it has to be in the same form as it will eventually appear when the question goes live on the main site. Using 3rd party sites simply won't work, because Stack Exchange markup doesn't behave quite like anywhere else, and poor formatting is a significant issue for new askers (and as we all know, formatting in the chat rooms sucks). It's not just a matter of making the question look neat & pretty, in Python, incorrect indentation of the code alters control flow or is a syntax error.
Jul 26, 2017 at 15:41 comment added Servy @JonEricson As for drafts being necessary, it may not be necessary for SO to have a heavily integrated and supported sharable draft feature (at first), but users need some way of sharing drafts with mentors, or mentors simply can't do their job, full stop. It might be enough for this experiment to just have people host their question on some random third party hosting site (perhaps a specific one that SO suggests they use) but if the mentors can't see what the draft question is, they can't critique it, or give advice as to what to do next.
Jul 26, 2017 at 15:41 comment added Servy @JonEricson If the whole thing is designed, from the ground up, as a way for people to get feedback on questions they've already asked, then sure, that's a line that can be followed, I'm just saying that, as is, the feature is described as being designed as asking for help on how to ask a question before it is asked.
Jul 26, 2017 at 15:37 comment added Jon Ericson Staff Providing the link to chat after the question is asked might be something we can try in the future. We don't want the chatroom to replace comments however. The ideal situation is for mentors to get involved as early in the process as possible. I suspect most people will have the chat in one tab as they work on their question in another. Sharable drafts would make this work out better, but I don't think they are strictly necessary. (And certainly not necessary for us to learn a thing or two from trying.)
Jul 26, 2017 at 15:34 comment added Servy @PetterFriberg If people are asking bad questions on the site we don't want to discourage downvotes/close votes/comments on those questions. Those forms of feedback are all vital for the site to function. It's a bad thing if they aren't provided on the questions that need them. That would result in this feature doing more harm than good.
Jul 26, 2017 at 15:33 comment added Servy @KristinaLustig So you're just going to throw everyone in a chatroom without anything in place? That's simply going to end badly. I mentioned several major problems that you're going to have in my answer, and those types of problems aren't just going to be possible, they're going to be more or less mandatory. There won't be any "good" way for people to give the mentors enough information for them to be helpful in a productive way.
Jul 26, 2017 at 15:31 comment added Servy @JonEricson But the intended workflow as laid out in the question is to link people to the chat from the ask question page, so they're going there before they've asked their question, and then they won't have a link to the question after they've posted their question. If the goal is to give people help improving their questions after they're asked (and the question doesn't lead me to believe that's actually the case) the link would need to be provided after they ask their question.
Jul 26, 2017 at 15:31 comment added Petter Friberg Maybe mentor could edit in a notice in question if posted on SO, that then is removed, to avoid some downvotes, close vote and comments while still in mentoring phase, they would just need a nice template. This in the future could be developed to an automatic question lock with notice, than then is removed.
Jul 26, 2017 at 15:28 comment added kristinalustig StaffMod This is definitely a potential issue. There are a lot of possible solutions, but in order to figure out how to prioritize them, we need to understand the kinds of questions that people will even ask in this kind of scenario. If it becomes really important to share large blocks of text or code (it probably will!) then we'll either need to settle on a standard or implement a draft feature, or something else. Overall we just want to make sure that the changes and decisions we're making are research-backed. Thanks for elaborating on this issue, though. It'll definitely be a big one.
Jul 26, 2017 at 15:28 comment added Jon Ericson Staff I'd really like to have a sharable draft feature similar to what we have on Docs. Not being able to share draft posts really is a problem if this becomes a long-term solution. For the actual research effort, I think it won't hurt much to have people post their questions and ask mentors for input after the fact.
Jul 26, 2017 at 15:24 comment added Petter Friberg The only feasible solution during this research stage probably would be to force OP to have a github account, wondering how many perfect OP we will have that post on github, listen to suggestion, improve question and then post on SO, but ok anything for science.
Jul 26, 2017 at 15:14 comment added toonarmycaptain I saw - I'm just saying it could be put with the varioius 'normal, flagged, on hold, etc statuses, and optionally included in the question list, which would draw the rest of the SO community beyond those mentors into helping handle them.
Jul 26, 2017 at 15:11 history edited Servy CC BY-SA 3.0
added 95 characters in body
Jul 26, 2017 at 15:10 comment added Servy @toonarmycaptain See the last paragraph of the answer...
Jul 26, 2017 at 15:07 comment added toonarmycaptain Maybe some kind of "draft" status for questions? This would allow sharing of the question, but not full "question" status. Might not be a bad feature/solution overall, if users, say with >100 or >250 rep could 'approve' new questions, but they could all be seen, while allowing browsers/searchers to excl\ude 'drafts' from their browsing?
Jul 26, 2017 at 15:00 history edited Servy CC BY-SA 3.0
added 477 characters in body
Jul 26, 2017 at 14:55 history answered Servy CC BY-SA 3.0