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Nov 3, 2016 at 8:30 comment added Stijn de Witt I said Google is an objective measure of on-topicness for a certain search query. Of course that doesn't mean stack overflow is on topic for any search you make. But I'm a programmer and I make programming-related search queries and I find answers here on Stack Overflow. They are on-topic for my programming related search query, but somehow not for SO, a programming-related QA site...
Nov 1, 2016 at 19:28 comment added gnat Google has nothing to do with on-topicness, and if it ever had I wouldn't use it. Say, if I wanted to find about porn sites, last thing I'd need would be Google telling me that it's off-topic at SO. "Your search is closed because off-topic, bwa-ha-ha"
Nov 1, 2016 at 14:30 comment added Stijn de Witt Google is a pretty objective measurement of on-topicness. Arguably more objective than any one of us here... It's just that SO redefines on-topic as ; fitting in the SO format / rules / guidelines', whereas Google just analyzes my search query and ranks answers found here according to that. We are actually just arguing whether my search query was 'on topic' in the first place. The interesting thing is that most of these queries will return both on-topic as well as 'off-topic' (in SO terms) answers...
Nov 1, 2016 at 12:03 comment added Lightness Races in Orbit "You can keep saying they are off-topic, but Google does not agree with you. These questions are on-topic for my searches." What a nonsense. Google does not get to decide what the topic of this website is, and neither do you.
Nov 1, 2016 at 9:36 comment added Stijn de Witt @gnat Ok point taken, but there are tons of real questions, not 'easy and fun stuff' that are closed as well. It's just a fine balance (and impossible to satisfy everyone), but I think on SO the needle has been in the overmoderation part of the scale for a while now and it would be good if we would tone it down a little. It all comes down to finding the right amount of tolerance for crappyness I guess: too much and good stuff gets drowned in crap, too little and good stuff gets muffled.
Nov 1, 2016 at 9:32 comment added Stijn de Witt @Clive Thanks for your kind words! Good luck to you as well!
Nov 1, 2016 at 6:25 comment added gnat history shows that relying solely on community moderation and voting doesn't work, Atwood explained this in The Trouble With Popularity: "we discovered that these posts become so popular over time that they truly start to drown out everything else on the site... it's too addictive and too easy, and in the absence of any moderation, the community would do nothing but add and upvote the easy, fun stuff. This is why community moderators have real power; they need that power..."
Oct 31, 2016 at 23:23 comment added duplode @StijndeWitt [2/2] (3) When you read my position as "he disagrees, therefore something must be wrong with him", you are assuming that I believe there is only One True Way of setting up a programming Q&A site. But I don't agree with that at all. Is Stack Overflow enough to cover all sorts of programming questions? No. it isn't. Is that a problem? Not at all, unless one dreams of a centralised source of knowledge that caters to everyone, satisfies everyone and makes all other approaches superfluous and doomed to Darwinian extinction. I find that both a pipe dream and a dangerous goal to have.
Oct 31, 2016 at 23:23 comment added duplode @StijndeWitt [1/2] (1) "At least I feel I would owe the public a good explanation for why I would feel they are all wrong and I am right." -- In that case, you are rejecting the PR, and rightfully so. You shouldn't be forced into quitting your own project because a group of users disagree with you over a fundamental design decision. They can always fork if they must. (2) I fully agree with "it's not math", but that absolutely doesn't mean anything goes. Cf. law and philosophy for imperfect analogies in the world-at-large.
Oct 31, 2016 at 23:13 comment added Clive Sorry, I didn't mean to come across like that. I certainly don't want to drive you away, I guess I just believe in my opinion as strongly as you do in yours but reading back I could've phrased things more constructively. Let's leave it there, I won't change your mind and that's fine. If there is a problem that some of us are too involved/close to be able to see, you've gone about raising it in the right way IMO. Good luck
Oct 31, 2016 at 22:12 comment added Stijn de Witt Basically what you and duplode are saying (and multiple times) is that something must be wrong with me for not agreeing with these rules. SO is not for me. It almost sounds like you guys want me to go away... It's strange that as a full-time developer having tons of programming related questions, since the answers I find are closed as off-topic, this proofs SO is not for me, instead of indicating the policy has become too strict. If actual programming-related questions from actual programmers are off-topic for a programmers QA site, that should ring some bells...
Oct 31, 2016 at 22:01 comment added Clive That's cool, enough of us do accept them that the site will survive just fine. If the Yahoo Answers approach does ever make it into SO proper, then it's all yours - me and my ilk will run away pretty quick I can promise you :)
Oct 31, 2016 at 21:52 comment added Stijn de Witt @Clive Sorry you feel that way. I am not doing it on purpose I can assure you. I too feel like I'm talking to a brick wall but I guess that's because we are at very different angles of the spectrum here. I think whether questions are 'crappy', or 'off-topic' is inherently opinion based. It's not a hard science. Language tends to be slippery like that. It's not math. I'm not saying my opinion is fact. You on the other hand have been telling me about 'the facts' from your very first comments. I don't accept them as facts and I don't agree with your opinion. Now that's a fact.
Oct 31, 2016 at 21:45 comment added Stijn de Witt @duplode Actually, yes. Of course in the case of an OSS software project on GitHub, I would consider actual users of the lib the community. And if some PR makes some sense (e.g. is not breaking stuff), even though I don't see the need myself, if the public is voting highly for this issue, I would consider it rude to ignore them and not apply the PR. At least I feel I would owe the public a good explanation for why I would feel they are all wrong and I am right. You see I have a lot of faith in humanity. That many people can't be all wrong.
Oct 31, 2016 at 21:41 comment added duplode @StijndeWitt Let me hazard an analogy then (it is imperfect, but then again analogies are always imperfect). According to your view, it would seem, the community in the case of your GitHub repositories consists of everyone who can visit that site and is able to interact with said repositories. Does that mean you must accept any pull request with lots of +1's that comes your way, because rejecting them would be excluding part of the community?
Oct 31, 2016 at 21:25 comment added Clive You're conflating two unrelated things. Either you understand that and you're doing it on purpose just to keep a basically-dead argument going, or you don't understand it and you're not going to, no matter how many people try to explain it to you. Either way I feel like I've been talking to a brick wall for a while now, so I'm out.
Oct 31, 2016 at 21:21 comment added Stijn de Witt @duplode A community should have the right to stand for its principles So what is that community in SO's case? I consider the whole of the public that visits SO a few times per year it's community... And on many questions the number of upvotes far outweighs the number of people that voted to close... So who is right? Most people don't take the time to go onto meta to voice their opinion... they just see the Closed banner and add a comment that that sucks... But people on meta seem to ignore these comments because frankly, I feel like I'm a voice in the wilderness.
Oct 31, 2016 at 21:19 comment added duplode @StijndeWitt [2/2] I agree over-moderation is a bad thing, and we should be wary of overzealousness. But that doesn't mean giving up moderation out of fear of some bogeyman slippery slope. A community has the right to stand for its principles, and to resist mob rule.
Oct 31, 2016 at 21:17 comment added Stijn de Witt @Clive Ok, you're trying to take this in a very weird direction now. Yeah... the concept that off-topic vs on-topic is broader than SO and it's particular rules and guidelines is 'a very weird direction'. Of course google's algorithms don't dictate what is on and off topic on an unrelated QA site. Ehm you know that determining whether content is on-topic for a certain search query is the search engine's core business right? I visit Google every day asking programming related questions => Google finds answers to my questions on SO (no wonder as it's a programmer Q&A site) => on-topic
Oct 31, 2016 at 21:10 comment added Clive "google doesn't agree with you"? Ok, you're trying to take this in a very weird direction now. Of course google's algorithms don't dictate what is on and off topic on an unrelated Q*A site. I can't imagine what makes you think they do
Oct 31, 2016 at 21:09 comment added duplode @StijndeWitt [1/2] That is a false dichotomy. It is not a choice between letting a small cabal of regulars dictate what is acceptable according to their whims versus leting anyone who visits the site do whatever they want. This sitebis open to anyone, as long as they respect a handful of fundamental principles that exist ever since Stack Overflow came into being. It is not a problem if someone rejects said principles -- they can go somewhere else and ask and discuss however they feel like. But they should not expect to impose their will on this community by force of numbers.
Oct 31, 2016 at 21:06 comment added Stijn de Witt @LightnessRacesinOrbit I said I googled up an off-topic post and voted for it... maybe you won't believe me but I found that post, not because I was looking for an off-topic post to paste here, but because at almost any time I will have multiple browser tabs with SO answers open. I google for tech stuff a lot and I find these answers. Many of them closed as off-topic. And voted highly. It happens all the time. You can keep saying they are off-topic, but Google does not agree with you. These questions are on-topic for my searches.
Oct 31, 2016 at 20:55 comment added Stijn de Witt @LightnessRacesinOrbit I'll upvote anything I like thank you very much. This whole off-topic thing is just not my cup of tea. The fact that I'm a developer and found that question with Google (unlike you guys I never come here directly) proofs that it is, in fact, on-topic. Just that SO keeps narrowing the scope of what is considered on-topic. There a dozens of 500+ voted questions that would be considered off-topic if they were asked today...
Oct 31, 2016 at 20:52 comment added Stijn de Witt @bjb568 Sigh. Don't worry I am familiar with Stack Overflow. It's just that the term 'mod' is broader than just SO you know? The mods are everywhere but only on SO do they get elected and what not. I'm actually an active mod on a couple of sites myself. On SO normal users have many powers that on other platforms only 'mods' have, so I use the term interchangeably.
Oct 31, 2016 at 20:48 comment added Stijn de Witt @duplode Why would that be a problem? This is what happens with over-moderation: a small group of regulars starts to make rules and policies more strict to cater for their specific needs, such as 'don't pollute the site', and in doing so slowly start turning the site into a niche...of a niche... of a niche as policies get stricter and stricter. 'Normal' SO users don't browse questions here... They hit them searching the web for answers. In doing so, they find a question that they actually know the answer to and add it. The group that lurks here daily is a minority.
Oct 31, 2016 at 20:44 comment added Stijn de Witt @BradLarson I'm sorry I used the term mods wrong.... When I use that term I mean people acting as mods, by exercising their regular accounts moderation powers... Not the actual elected mods. Sorry for the confusion. I've argued for not deleting posts on multiple occasions Thanks for that! I hope SO's policies evolve towards more of a live-and-let-live policy vs the current control-freakish policy (imnsho). Spam? Insults? Racism? Porn? By all means delete it. Real questions (albeit maybe 'crappy' ones)? Please just let it slide. The general public and search engines will deal with it
Oct 31, 2016 at 18:27 comment added duplode @FastAl "but if those don't change in 5 years, we'll be getting our IT answers from a different site in 10 years" -- Why would that be a problem? Who makes up the "we" you are talking about? Is it that difficult to understand that Stack Overflow is not meant to be all things to all people?
Oct 31, 2016 at 17:43 comment added bjb568 Not only is your argument based on an overly simplistic model, your assertion that mods cause deletion is completely wrong. Mods are among the most anti-deletion people on meta. Perhaps familiarizing yourself with the reality here will allow you to analyze complex problems on the site better.
Oct 31, 2016 at 16:39 comment added FastAl @StijndeWitt ... You're right, but there are a small number of people who come here for power, not to help. Experts-Exchange thought that could live by charging for answers. Stack-exchange thinks they can live by removing useful questions. Yes, questions that are against SO's official policies - but if those don't change in 5 years, we'll be getting our IT answers from a different site in 10 years, one that sees the obvious truth you see here. (talking more about recommendations/opinions being 'off topic', not crappy questions, but you are right about that too - they're useful for Google bait)
Oct 31, 2016 at 15:10 comment added Brad Larson Mod Regarding your comment "only the mods come here so no one here ever wants to hear the voice of the public", you'll notice that I'm the first moderator to comment anywhere on this post. In fact, I've argued for not deleting posts on multiple occasions ( meta.stackoverflow.com/a/337030/19679 meta.stackoverflow.com/a/332611/19679 ) and normal members of the community disagreed with me. There aren't enough elected moderators on the entire site to account for the votes on these answers. The community does have a voice on Meta, and moderators don't have special control over it.
Oct 31, 2016 at 13:19 comment added Servy @StijndeWitt If the majority of the questions you find in searches are closed, then it sounds like you're searching for the kinds of questions that we don't want here. You simply are looking for content that is out of SO's scope of acceptable questions.
Oct 31, 2016 at 10:32 comment added Ian Goldby "The difference is that I believe visitors can decide for themselves what is appropriate or not." Yes, 100 times! If I write just one thing on the next SO survey, it will be this.
Oct 31, 2016 at 10:11 comment added Lightness Races in Orbit @StijndeWitt: Please do not upvote off-topic questions.
Oct 30, 2016 at 15:45 comment added Clive Yeah, it just sounds more and more like you don't like the principals behind community moderation, and rules in general. That's fine, but any opinion like that is almost irrelevant here as you're going against the empirical purpose of the site, which is to be rule based and community moderated. I don't that paradox is likely to be resolved, the company and community have made it abundantly clear we want to keep moderating content.
Oct 30, 2016 at 15:13 comment added duplode @StijndeWitt "If half the questions I encounter using Google are high voted but nonetheless closed, I conclude that moderation is overzealous" -- That only follows if you assume moderation should be done according to public opinion.
Oct 30, 2016 at 15:09 comment added Stijn de Witt Oh I'm not pretending anything. I just visit this site very regularly. What I'm seeing is that I see a lot of issues cloded, where the public is voting for these issues. Just now I googled up this one with 67 votes (I just added one) and closed. If half the questions I encounter using Google are high voted but nonetheless closed, I conclude that moderation is overzealous. How much moderation should be applied is inherently opinion-based and my opinion differs.
Oct 30, 2016 at 14:09 comment added Clive I'm not a moderator, I'm just one of the members of the public you're talking about. At some point you'll just need to accept you're in the minority. Trying to pretend that the lack of support for your opinion confirms your opinion isn't going to cut it I'm afraid.
Oct 30, 2016 at 13:46 comment added Stijn de Witt The downside of meta: only the mods come here so no one here ever wants to hear the voice of the public. Just visit some high-ranked questions that were closed as off-topic and read some comments there. Many people are feeling that SO is becoming over-moderated.
Oct 29, 2016 at 14:58 comment added Clive Crappy means bad. Off-topic means doesn't belong here. They're very different things, one has obvious negative connotations and the other is just a neutral statement of fact. You can vote at 15 rep, and a user with 15 rep isn't necessarily experienced enough to know what's on or off topic. So it's not useful to take votes as a measure of appropriateness for the site, because that's not what they are; it's why we have the other mechanisms. It sounds like you don't enjoy community-moderated content, but unfortunately that's what SO is
Oct 29, 2016 at 14:39 comment added Stijn de Witt I'm assuming nothing but one thing: that the community will be less likely to write meaningful answers for, vote for, link to etc 'crappy' questions. Not being on-topic is just one of the many different ways in which questions can be 'crappy'. The community will automatically factor that in when dealing with these questions. "Content that isn't appropriate for the site can gather many upvotes, inbound links, etc" If content really is not appropriate, why would people vote for it? The difference is that I believe visitors can decide for themselves what is appropriate or not.
Oct 29, 2016 at 14:19 comment added Clive You're assuming that every non-'crappy' question is on topic by virtue - that just isn't true. Content that isn't appropriate for the site can gather many upvotes, inbound links, etc, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be closed if it doesn't fit here
Oct 29, 2016 at 14:11 history answered Stijn de Witt CC BY-SA 3.0