74

...and what should we do with them?

I'm starting to see questions on the Python tag like:

  • "How do you access a value in a list?" (i.e., how do you use a basic data structure)
  • "How do I call a function?"
  • "How do I call a method?"

These are extremely basic questions about simple language features that should be covered by any tutorial. They're not too broad, because each has a specific, simple answer. If they are duplicates, then I submit it's a waste of community time to moderate them that way. Why should I spend five minutes looking all over the site for a proper dupe target when in 5 minutes there will be 10 answers all saying the same thing?

These questions encourage both help vampires (who are asking them) and repwhores (who are lining up to answer them) and depleting the resources of moderating users who can't do anything about them. Downvoting doesn't do anything because the questions still get a ton of upvoted answers.

So what should we do? This will just get downvoted or closed if I turn this into yet another "We should bring back the minimal understanding" flag, but opening up SO to questions like, "How do I open up a text editor and type?" seems like a bad idea.

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    Frequently, these questions would take longer to type up than it would to google the same. I just don't understand these OPs. A recent example Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 15:45
  • @MorganThrapp I have commented that exact sentiment numerous times. We can throw that in the bin with downvoting as a useless and frustrating exercise here. :P Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 15:47
  • 4
    @MorganThrapp It's often a good way to earn rep. The questions often get some rep, and answers get a ton.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 15:47
  • 36
  • 4
    @Matt Yes, but none of those gets at the heart of what I'm asking. All the close reason suggestions have been considered and rejected, which is why I left that to one side. Many people expressed similar frustrations in answers, or said that they downvote/comment. The heart of what I'm saying is that this incentivizes two of the most common "bad" users on SO -- the askers and answerers who don't care about the site or its goals -- and frustrates the ones trying to help. No linked question or answer addresses that, as far as I've seen. Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 15:52
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    This is what happens when people are given incentives for providing crap and disincentivized from removing/discouraging crap.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 15:53
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    lol, just on Python? I thiink not:( Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 15:53
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    Nothing can be done. Unfortunately, 'harsh' close-reasons, comments etc. are 'condescending, rude and hostile', whereas asking for tuition on basic language syntax and dumping no-effort homework crap is not. Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 15:57
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    I tend to downvote such questions (because of lacking research efforts), and sometimes close as too broad or unclear. Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 16:20
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    If this was instituted it would only take 5 downvotes to close these kinds of questions. Then we're saying "Your question isn't too broad, off-topic or opinion-based, but it also isn't up to the quality standards of Stack Overflow."
    – user4639281
    Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 16:34
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    If I can be bothered (usually not these days) I might write a custom close reason. Otherwise, I simply choose the one that seems to fit best, downvote and move on. If they can't be bothered to spend the slightest effort, I don't see why I should be expected to spend a lot of effort pondering the best fitting close reason. If I think a question should be closed, I vote accordingly. I don't care what those who think that close reasons were "misused" think about how I vote. Trying to be nice to help vampires and the clueless was one of the biggest mistakes SO ever made.
    – Roland
    Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 19:40
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    A couple of suggestions that I've seen mentioned recently: 1). An automatic freeze for 5-10 minutes on questions from low-rep users to give people time to search for dupe targets.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Oct 31, 2015 at 4:12
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    2). Give a rep reward to people who find good dupe targets, eg any user can propose a dupe target candidate, and if it's accepted by the majority of dupe-closers they get a finder's fee of 2 points: I figure that finding a good dupe's at least as much work as making an acceptable edit suggestion. However, that scheme doesn't work so well if the question is closed by a Mjölnir-wielder, since it bypasses the democratic process.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Oct 31, 2015 at 4:12
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    Maybe you should have mentioned previous questions and how this question differed from them from the get-go, rather than waiting until someone had gone to the effort of looking for related questions. Commented Nov 2, 2015 at 6:37
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    I sometimes really consider downvoting good answers only to discourage from providing such to read-me-manual questions.
    – mikus
    Commented Nov 2, 2015 at 9:36

5 Answers 5

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Are there questions that are too trivial to answer?

No.

Are there questions that are too trivial to answer by Stack Overflow's standards?

Yes. If I Google your problem and get a large number of hits, and a trivial inspection of one of those hits reveals the solution, then your question is too trivial for the site.

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    You're only answering the title and not the question. OK, "your question is too trivial for the site." What do we do with it then? How do we fix the currently perverse incentive structures pertaining to good-faith editors and bad-faith editors. Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 19:07
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    @Two-BitAlchemist My answer is "bring back minimal understanding", and that makes me A Bad Person according to the majority of SO moderators and users. So I didn't feel it was worthwhile to type it out, except now I have, and this is awkward.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 19:13
  • Hah! Well that's more or less my answer too and the question is about addressing this void. If not, then what. My read of the 'answers' so far is: "Give up, it's hard." Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 19:42
  • 3
    The answer is downvote, however since there aren't enough people willing to do so, and more that instead upvote it, it doesn't solve it. If we fixed that, it would also fix this issue. but.... how do we do that..
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 19:44
  • Can you get a question ban if none of your questions are deleted/closed but you still get many downvotes?
    – Mage Xy
    Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 19:53
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    @NikG: Yes, but it's quite a lot harder to get there. Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 20:23
  • @IanKemp: I get the impression "bring back minimal understanding" is very popular on Meta and the people who do not share that view are labelled as repwhores here.
    – jfs
    Commented Nov 1, 2015 at 15:08
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    @J.F.Sebastian It's popular on Meta, not SO, because the users who actually give a s**t frequent Meta. Unfortunately "be nice" has effectively been codified as The First Law of Stack Overflow with the result that most users prefer being nice to being honest. For me, answering homework questions has nothing to do with rep-whoring, and everything to do with not adding quality content to the site.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Nov 2, 2015 at 8:59
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    @IanKemp: have you seen this? I don't understand what being polite and "assume good faith" have to do with "lack research effort" questions. Could you link to a discussion where "be nice" is interpreted as "add low-quality content to the site"?
    – jfs
    Commented Nov 2, 2015 at 11:00
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    @J.F.Sebastian The close reasons' scope was narrowed due to new user complaints and the resulting perception that SO was becoming "too hostile" to new users. The obvious consequence was that users became reluctant to cast close votes because that could be seen as not "being nice". That was compounded by the fact that the narrower close reasons made it more difficult to close questions. "Be nice" was never interpreted as "add low-quality content", but it was interpreted as "lower the standards for stuff we close", which has the same effect.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Nov 2, 2015 at 11:33
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    The link that I've provided says nothing about "new user complaints" and suggests that closing via "minimal understanding" is actually harmful to the site: "Turns out finding drugs that kill cancer isn't hard; lots of things kill cancer. Drugs that find and kill only cancer are considerably harder..."
    – jfs
    Commented Nov 2, 2015 at 12:22
  • What are you supposed to do with a question that would be difficult to locate via Google? This question is so basic that the asker is clearly just learning to program: stackoverflow.com/questions/48269922/… Commented Jan 15, 2018 at 20:40
41

A question that lacks research effort warrants a down vote.

One that is unclear or too broad a close vote.

A trivial question is likely to have been asked already - and thus can be dupe-closed. If it hasn't then it's time to write an answer that could be used as a canonical in future. (It only takes one gold badger to dupehammer a post).

It may seem onerous to hunt-the-dupe, but bear in mind that repeated 'trivial' questions (accruing downvotes too) will mean posting ban as well.

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    "gold badger" :o)
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 17:21
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    It may seem onerous to hunt-the-dupe, but bear in mind that repeated 'trivial' questions (accruing downvotes too) will mean posting ban as well. This assumes that people downvote those questions, and don't upvote them. That's a false assumption.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 17:34
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    Ah, well, then we get back into the classic help-vampire <-> feeder cycle, which is a much broader (and harder) problem.
    – Sobrique
    Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 17:38
  • 1
    Does a gold badger seek out a gold mushroom mushroom? Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 19:31
  • 1
    Agh! It's a (fake) gold snake!
    – Serlite
    Commented Oct 30, 2015 at 20:10
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    But do we really want canonicals for the extremely trivial questions (like this recent gem) that people should be consulting proper documentation or tutorials for? I try to be patient with newbies who are so clueless that they don't understand how to find such answers in the docs, but I have my limits. :)
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Oct 31, 2015 at 4:05
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    (cont) If we provide such answers on SO it will (IMHO) only encourage such people to look for the answers to these basic questions on SO instead of studying properly-structured documentation. And creating an unstructured pool of such answers is a lot more work than creating proper structured documentation.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Oct 31, 2015 at 4:06
  • No, "gold badger" is improved version of honey badger - with even thicker skin. :) Commented Nov 1, 2015 at 5:29
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    @PM2Ring Well, let's be fair, SO is often the better source of documentation for most kind of questions. Of course API references do have their place, but SO normally contains (the sum of all the questions) more information about a lot of interfaces than the official documentation. Commented Nov 1, 2015 at 15:39
  • @DavidMulder: Sure, for API questions a linear presentation of information isn't so critical (and may not even be totally achievable). But for learning core language features it's pretty important. If new programmers use SO as a substitute for working through a properly-structured tutorial they may eventually become competent at using various parts of the language but I doubt that they'll develop a good sense of how those parts form a whole.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Nov 1, 2015 at 16:57
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    (cont) And I suspect that there's a good chance that they'll simply become cargo-culters, pasting snippets together by trial and error. And when their mess doesn't do what they want, they'll expect us to make it work, as I discussed in this answer.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Nov 1, 2015 at 16:57
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    @PM2Ring Yet basic language feature questions in no way provide clear and ready snippets to copy paste that will not be understood. Especially basic question like 'How do you access a value in a list?' is a question that will be entirely understood. It's far easier to google 'access list value java' then search manually through a long 'getting started in Java'-book, yet you learn just as much from each. I am all for a stricter policy against code writing questions, but this is not part of that at all. Commented Nov 1, 2015 at 17:34
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The coming-soon documentation feature should cover such simple questions. I hope we'll have a special flag or some other way to mark questions as already explained in the documentation. Then you won't have to search though a lot of questions because there will be a single and obvious place to search.

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    SO already is that what you describe; a single obvious place to search with an actual search function. A search function that often is left forgotten and untouched. I don't see a bright future for the search function of the documentation site, the people who create close/downvotable questions are still going to not see it at all unless they look at it at a very specific angle. (if that rings no bells: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, book 3).
    – Gimby
    Commented Nov 2, 2015 at 16:38
4

"Trivial" questions are not only answerable but vital

Are there questions that are too trivial to answer [on Stack Overflow]?

Possibly; but certainly none of your examples qualify. With the benefit of hindsight, simple questions like this have proven to be a massive boon for learners and educators alike.

In fact, here are several questions related to those examples that I've either helped to improve, or have found useful for closing duplicate questions (or both):

How slicing in Python works

How do I get the number of elements in a list (length of a list) in Python?

How do I get ("return") a result (output) from a function? How can I use the result later?

What is the purpose of the return statement? How is it different from printing?

Why is "None" printed after my function's output?

What is the purpose of the `self` parameter? Why is it needed?

"TypeError: method() takes 1 positional argument but 2 were given" but I only passed one

Why do I get "TypeError: Missing 1 required positional argument: 'self'"?

__init__() missing 1 required positional argument

All fundamental topics that every Python programmer should understand after "working through the basics". All things one would expect a decent "learn to program in Python" book to go over. All well received with high view counts.


But I'd like to go into more depth on a specific example.

Consider the popularity of a former canonical, IndentationError: unindent does not match any outer indentation level, although the indentation looks correct. It has attracted millions of views and far too many answers. A lot of the top answers really belong on How to fix Python indentation, or one of the more specific sub-questions, instead. Then there are answers describing other causes of the same error (the OP example is about mixed spaces and tabs, but it can happen other ways).

And that's just one variant of IndentationError - others had separate canonicals, sort of, if curators could find them. So you got other highly-upvoted questions like What should I do with "Unexpected indent" in Python? and Why am I getting "IndentationError: expected an indented block"?. In 3.x, the rules got a bit stricter, resulting in the addition of "inconsistent use of tabs and spaces in indentation" - notice how the answers end up rehashing all the same advice about how to type the code, rather than focusing on what the code needs to contain.

It got bad enough that in 2017 Christian Dean created an artificial, self-answered canonical to round up the questions that are really all the same question answered in the same way, motivated by the same conceptual issue explained and fixed in the same way. And this faced heavy resistance at first; but thanks to the combined efforts of several regulars, it's now good enough that I can't see any reason to direct others to the previously mentioned questions instead (except the "how to fix" question, because that really is an orthogonal topic). There are some less common issues with IndentationError that are better dealt with separately (in particular How to write an empty indented block in Python? and Why do I get an IndentationError from a properly indented function (following a "try" with no "except")? - the latter is logically speaking not an indentation problem at all, but the result of older versions of Python using a parser with poorer error recovery); but overall if you get IndentationError, that's what you're asking about.

As such, throughout last December or so I put in an extraordinary effort to clean up old dupes, and this canonical is now one of the most "frequent" in the Python tag, with over a thousand links. And that was mostly just from me cleaning up "tumbleweed" questions that had gone completely ignored. I only searched for questions with IndentationError in the title, by the way; there could potentially be thousands more dupes (although of course a search like that will have many false positives).

The thing about all of that is that these problems are all the same conceptual issue, which is exclusive to beginners. Python programmers with any meaningful experience have been there and done that. They know what the rules are and what the code should look like; they write the code with a consistent style; they know how to configure their editors to facilitate a consistent style and also avoid stray tabs; they know how to check the code for stray tabs (or spaces, for those few curmudgeons who refuse to switch to space-based indents - I may have been one, in the 2000s); and they can instinctively respond to any IndentationError with a troubleshooting checklist.

It's not as if there's a lack of explanation elsewhere, either. The indentation rules are comprehensively explained on a technical level in the documentation, the tutorial mentions code indentation in several places (1 2 3 and other mentions that are not as useful) and the Windows FAQ even advises about how to make MSVC not use tabs. Putting python indentation into a search engine turns up all sorts of third parties who are champing at the bit to explain the concept, and that's hardly a new phenomenon. In short, anyone not knowing the fundamentals could have researched them just fine even in 2008 - if they knew what to look for.

But the thing is, beginners do not know what to look for, almost by definition. They have unknown unknowns. Copying and pasting an error message into a search engine is a good first step; but as already discussed, error messages do not map one-to-one with logical causes.


I hope the point is clear by now. That's just one topic, every "not a beginner" should be expected to understand it quite well already - and the interest is massive.

The site has clearly suffered from a reluctance to include such questions. People will ask whether you like it or not, and referring them to a high-quality duplicate is vastly better than trying to find another reason to close the question, which in turn is infinitely better than just downvoting it and giving the FGITW addicts free rein to rephrase the same explanation for the N+1th time. But there are so many cases now where the question is "obviously" a duplicate about something that could easily clearly be explained, but trying to find a canonical is an outright nightmare. I personally have accumulated almost two thousand questions in my Saves list, dominantly in an effort to improve the canonical-search process for myself - and this is more or less only considering the Python tag.

If you care about building a high-quality, searchable reference library, then you must admit questions that beginners need answered. (This is not the same as "questions that beginners asked, phrased the way beginners phrase them".) In every field, beginners will always greatly outnumber experts, and a proper understanding of fundamentals is crucial.

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    I've read this over and over again, but I keep wondering how your two main points can ever be reconciled: beginners questions belong on SO and it's a nightmare to handle them. I do agree with the first point, really, but that's rational decision that can't take away the exertion, fatigue and frustration. So after everything you say here: now what? Commented Feb 11 at 20:48
  • @GertArnold Questions for beginners belong on SO. That does not necessarily mean questions by beginners. Hence the last paragraph. Nothing prevents an expert from writing a beginner-level question; especially since self-answered questions have always been encouraged, it is emphatically not part of the social contract of the site that the OP actually needs an answer to the question. See also. Commented Feb 12 at 3:32
  • I think part of the Q&A format problem is that in order to ask a really good question, you must either have a clue about what the answer is or happen to ask one by luck. Must beginners don't have a clue what the problem is, they face some gibberish error like IndentationError, NullPointerException, Segementation Fault etc. To go from there to the relevant duplicate entry in a FAQ is not something they can do by themselves, and so such questions need manual handling by more experienced programmers. Over and over again.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 12 at 10:04
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    I've been pondering for a while if a better approach would be to instead of writing/cataloging a traditional FAQ, write a FAQ with the beginner's perspective in mind. A "wizard" of sorts. Like: "What is the problem you are having?" List of options follows. They pick "segmentation fault". Then follows another list of follow up questions like "Are you dealing with arrays?" And further it goes: "Are you writing non-trivial loops diverting from for(int i=0; i<n; i++)", "Are you trying to declare exceptionally large arrays inside a function" etc.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 12 at 10:04
  • Ultimately leading to the probable cause: array out of bounds access, stack overflow and so on. And then provide a link to the canonical. With such a system in place and beginners actually using it, we ought to reduce the amount of beginner FAQ by letting people help themselves. This is what every tech company like your phone company or ISP do - they go to some lengths trying to keep you from calling support for human to human interaction. Since they know that the most common answer is "have you tried to turn it off and put it back on again?"
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 12 at 10:04
  • @Lundin that sounds like the basis for an entire new website, not a feature that could realistically be integrated into a Q&A site. And from personal experience, those kinds of "wizards" can become really annoying in the cases where they start repeatedly guessing wrong and you have to keep clicking "no" or "something else". Commented Feb 15 at 6:28
  • It could be implemented as a meta thread, it doesn't have to force anyone to take the wizard. It doesn't have to be more complicated than a long page of text with links. And could be community maintained.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 15 at 7:08
  • Ah. That would probably require a cultural shift, at least. On Codidact, we could use a different "category" for that sort of thing. Commented Feb 15 at 7:14
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    @KarlKnechtel I was thinking that too. And Codidact is probably far more open to various forms of site integration.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 15 at 7:29
-2

The purpose of answering a trivial question would be to help a newcomer learn.

Many learners just don't know the easiest route to expertise. For some learners, the desire to get an answer to a question from SO is not lazy as much as misguided. Flagging and closing does not reduce the number of people posting such questions and doesn't help a reader with a similar question who lands on the page. Homework ought to teach people to effectively use resources, including SO, tutorials, office hours, and their textbook. Flagging and closing uses a lot of SO member labor. Closing helps learners answer their questions if the closure message communicates how to learn. The best resolution of the beginner's original post, however achieved (human flagging and closing, automated redirection to a crafted answer, ...?) ought to answer two questions: "What's the easiest way to learn this? What's ok to post on Stack Overflow?" Teach them how to learn, aim to have them add human power to SO as their expertise grows, and minimize the noisy disruption to others who are using Stack Overflow.

The best response for the sake of the learner might include these elements,

  • Keyword(s) that describe what they are trying to learn
  • A suggestion that beginners' tutorials are good places to learn rudimentary elements
  • A suggestion on how to find tutorials
  • A link to a tutorial or official docs
  • A suggestion to use the tutorial/documentation's index, search bar, or control-F.

"You are trying to access an element of a list using an index. Tutorials are better than SO for the basics. Try searching for "tutorial Python." I recommend How to Think Like a Computer Scientist. Look through the table of contents for your topic."

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    It appears to me that newcomers don't understand why their bad questions are downvoted. Commented Nov 1, 2015 at 5:52
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    That seems to be a case where "answering" the question in a comment, then closing it, is the right way to do things. An "answer" that is nothing more than "read the tutorial here" is not an answer and should be deleted, however helpful it might be as a comment or forum post or chat message. Commented Nov 1, 2015 at 7:30
  • Nathan, I agree. But the question isn't an SO question. The response can be an answer, a comment, or a message about closure, whatever solves the problem best. The original poster wants an answer. One SO user doesn't want to see the question in the first place. Another SO user wants to help the poster. Another SO user wants rep. Another SO user landed on the page seeking an answer to their own question. Not all the user stories involve someone who cares whether the response is provided by comment, answer, or message. Commented Nov 1, 2015 at 17:28
  • Sure, but if not all user stories care whether the response is given in X way, and some of them do, for reasons that have to do with proper site functioning, priority should be given to the latter. Commented Nov 1, 2015 at 22:09

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