20

I firmly believe that it is perfectly possible to remain nice - polite, friendly, even welcoming - while still refusing to feed the troll, or the help vampire, or whichever other species of undesirable question-asker you are dealing with at the moment. For years, I've taken the approach of rattling off a short, impersonal comment and then closevoting the offending question. I think that this is better than just closevoting, because it sends the signal that at least someone did look at the question - if you get nothing but a closed question when you're new, you may have no idea how to proceed (yes, even though the system offers some tips in the close message, because the close message suffers from "I am an error message and therefore cannot possibly contain helpful information" syndrome).

Here is a sample of the kind of short, impersonal comment I tend to leave:

  • We are not going to do your homework for you.
  • This is a very basic question which would be better answered by a [language] textbook.
  • To answer this question properly would require an entire chapter of a [language] textbook.
  • Stack Overflow is not geared for helping people get started with large projects. Please come back when you have a concrete and specific question.
  • I see many errors in this code. You should have a face-to-face conversation with your instructor about it.
  • I do not understand what this program is supposed to do. Please explain.
  • I do not know what you mean by "it doesn't work." Please be more specific.
  • The bug is in code you have not showed us. Please read and follow the directions at https://stackoverflow.com/help/mcve.
  • As described, this is not possible. Please explain why you think you need to do this and maybe we can help you find a better solution.
  • This is a bad idea, because [reason]. Please explain why you think you need to do this and maybe we can help you find a better solution.

Now, I'm posting this partially just to put a stake in the ground on the side of "you don't have to be hostile to turn the bad questions away," but partially because some of the discourse flowing around the new code of conduct makes me wonder if any of the above comments might in fact be seen as hostile! So. What does the collective think of them?


Added after reading the first batch of responses: Several people have pointed out that the short and impersonal nature of these comments in itself makes them sound dismissive. This is fair and I'm going to think about how to avoid sounding dismissive. However, I think impersonality is a valuable tone to apply in this context, because it avoids mocking the person who posted the question (the comments that I tend to flag as "rude or abusive" are the ones that flirt with saying "this is a bad question and you're an idiot for not knowing the answer already") and at the same time it doesn't invite negotiation. I've seen people reply with "but I have a deadline!!!!eleven!~" more than a few times, I intend to come across as someone on whom that will not work, and I really hope that's not seen as unacceptable.

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  • 15
    several of them... are sort of falsehoods in a way. There is no rule against homework here. If a question is on topic, it's on topic regardless of whether or not it was sourced from homework. Using that as a reason is simply weak.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 27, 2018 at 18:32
  • 15
    Baah skip the first 5 comments, just cv and dv then move on and you are fine Commented Sep 27, 2018 at 18:32
  • 8
    While I wouldn't mind those types of comments, I have to question the utility of even saying them; you're not going to change their minds, or suddenly convince them to stop their undesirable behaviour and shape up. What it does do, though, is give them something to focus on, to, "prove" that SE is hostile and elitest. Granted, getting their question silently downvoted and closed can be seen that way, too, but curation is curation; impersonal and as consistent as possible.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Sep 27, 2018 at 19:03
  • 1
    @fbueckert I dunno about that. I certainly do intend to prod people in the direction of shaping up when I write these...
    – zwol
    Commented Sep 27, 2018 at 19:04
  • 6
    The main reason I find some of these dismissive is because you really don't give the OP any sort of actionable feedback as to how to improve. You just say what's wrong and go away (as in, telling the OP to go away. That's what I read from first glance of them, totally doubt that's your intention) for the first half of them. (Except the large project one, but I just feel that one could be more clear rather than less dismissive.)
    – Kendra
    Commented Sep 27, 2018 at 19:06
  • 4
    I do, too, on my home site of Arqade. I get where you're coming from. But one thing I had to ask myself was, "Does a short pointed statement actually help them?" Usually, the answer was no. Telling someone we're not going to do their homework doesn't do anything but convince the asker to better disguise his question. For example, on Arqade, we don't allow questions about piracy. We've gotten questions where the asker straight up admits they pirated the game. I've told them we don't help with pirated games. Their response? To edit out the part that said they did.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Sep 27, 2018 at 19:07
  • 7
    When people want help, they want help, damn the rules. They'll expend more effort twisting around our requirements than they will trying to meet them, because they don't care about them. All they want is help, and anything that hinders that goal is something to be worked around. Same reason users don't read error messages; they're not relevant to their current task, so they'll do whatever they have to to get it to go away.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Sep 27, 2018 at 19:09
  • 7
    Often times, the most basic questions end up being the most useful questions on the site.
    – Clint
    Commented Sep 27, 2018 at 19:24
  • 1
    @Kendra Your comment and fbueckert's comments immediately below really illuminate the hair we're all trying to split here ... to some extent our collective goal wrt the people who really do just want us to do their homework for them is to get them to go away, at least to the extent they stop asking that kind of question here ... but at the same time we want to hold out hope that they could get help here in the future if they had a question that was more suitable.
    – zwol
    Commented Sep 27, 2018 at 19:27
  • 1
    @zwol I think our goal should be as you posted in your own comment above: To prod them in the direction of shaping up. Right now, the first half of your comments in the question are just saying that something's wrong. Most people aren't going to bother trying to learn how to shape up when all they're given is they're doing it wrong, they're going to get angry or ignore you. That's my goal when I comment, on the rare occasion I do, is to get the OP to improve.
    – Kendra
    Commented Sep 27, 2018 at 19:32
  • 9
    @zwol It's one thing to get the help vampire to go away. But it's another thing to make them go away in a way that leaves a very bitter taste. Because the latter is what leads to all the disparagement that gives the site such a bad image on the outside. IOW, if we have to drive them away, I'd prefer doing so in more diplomatic ways.
    – Mysticial
    Commented Sep 27, 2018 at 19:33
  • 3
    Stop worrying about helping people who post such questions. More often than not, the comments are going to be counter productive. Just downvote, close vote, and move on. Commented Sep 28, 2018 at 0:39
  • 2
    I think "I do not understand what this program is supposed to do. Please explain." and "I do not know what you mean by "it doesn't work." Please be more specific." are well worded comments and could definitely help a few posts I've seen; the MVCE one is fine too as long as it's restricted to debugging questions. The rest I am not sure about, they don't provide much guidance for the OP. A willing and able user might be able to provide more detail or interpret / edit and adequately answer questions with those problems, or find the duplicate. If nobody does, the roomba will get it.
    – jrh
    Commented Sep 28, 2018 at 22:21
  • 1
    I think the tone of your examples is rather curt. For example, 'I do not know what you mean by "it doesn't work." Please be more specific.' Could be rephrased as "When you say 'it doesn't work', that doesn't give us much to go on. Was there an error message? Did it produce wrong output? If you want us to help with the diagnosis, you need to tell us the symptoms." Commented Sep 28, 2018 at 22:53
  • 3
    I don't think "This is a very basic question which would be better answered by a [language] textbook." is that helpful. If it is really helpful and basic, chances are that there is a duplicate than be pointed to. On the off chance that no such duplicate exists, I believe the question would be a positive contribution to the site.
    – rlee827
    Commented Sep 29, 2018 at 21:04

7 Answers 7

28

Rudeness is subjective and will depend heavily on the perspective. While all your comments are well-intentioned and sound reasonable to reasonable people, most of them can be still taken as rude by a true help vampire or troll.

We are not going to do your homework for you.

OP: It's due to tomorrow and I need it now or it will hurt my grade! If you're not here to help go away!

This is a very basic question which would be better answered by a [language] textbook.

OP: Are you insulting me? If you can't answer my question go away. This site is sh1t!!!

To answer this question properly would require an entire chapter of a [language] textbook.

This one seems okay. But it might leave the OP wondering why. And it doesn't help the OP who just wants the answer there and now.

Stack Overflow is not geared for helping people get started with large projects. Please come back when you have a concrete and specific question.

OP: I don't care. I want my answer and I want it now. Go away!

I see many errors in this code. You should have a face-to-face conversation with your instructor about it.

OP: I came here to have my homework done for me. Don't you dare tell me what do!

or

OP: My instructor told me to come to Stack Overflow for help! And now you're turning me away! If you can't help, go away!

The bug is in code you have not showed us. Please read and follow the directions at https://stackoverflow.com/help/mcve.

OP: I came here to have my question answered. I didn't come here to be told what to do. F-off and go away!

As described, this is not possible. Please explain why you think you need to do this and maybe we can help you find a better solution.

This one will depend on the circumstance of the OP. It is possible that the OP might think, "It is possible because boss or teacher told me so. Just give the answer already!"

This is a bad idea, because [reason]. Please explain why you think you need to do this and maybe we can help you find a better solution.

OP: I don't care. I need the answer and I need it now because my boss said so or my homework is due in two hours. But I can't tell you that.


IMO, the best way to deal with this problem is to ignore.

No feedback is better than negative feedback. Anything you say that doesn't give the vampire what they want will only incite them. The only way to make a vampire happy is to feed them. So if you don't want to do that, don't do anything at all.

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  • 21
    "While all your comments are well-intentioned and sound reasonable to reasonable people, most of them can be still taken as rude by a true help vampire or troll." -- this is an excellent point. It clarifies SO's current policy regarding reasonable people. Commented Sep 27, 2018 at 19:31
  • 7
    I don't think that ignoring is the best policy as a first response. Many of these succinct comments might cause a "help vampire" to take unreasonable offense, while not offending a reasonable person. So they could be quite useful as a filter: if the questioner takes offense at being told "We won't do your homework", then walk away. But if they act like a reasonable person, then engage them in further conversation.
    – rmunn
    Commented Sep 27, 2018 at 22:27
  • 4
    @rmunn I agree. What we need is a set of comments that can quickly determine whether the user is a reasonable, or a vampire/troll. And it needs to be done in a way that offends neither category and is clear to the potential answerers that come across the question.
    – Mysticial
    Commented Sep 27, 2018 at 22:30
  • 2
    @Mystical - What we need is a magical mind reading tool that allows us to reliably predict how someone is going to react. That's not possible. So yes, the best approach is to downvote / close vote and not comment.
    – Stephen C
    Commented Sep 28, 2018 at 13:05
  • 3
    "most of them can be still taken as rude by a true help vampire or troll." I would remove "by a true help vampire or troll" here because you don't have to be one of those to view these as rude. I consider some of these rude and I try to be quite reasonable.
    – TylerH
    Commented Sep 28, 2018 at 21:44
  • 5
    @Mysticial from what I can see, basically any comment that doesn't provide immediate help for an ungrateful type of user will pretty much provoke an undesirable response (or one that indicates the user's true nature), so we don't have to try too hard to formulate comments to achieve this end. I have zero tolerance for this type of user. Any rudeness is not ok, but it's worse when people come onto the site contributing nothing, making demands and throwing their weight around. Really grates my cheese.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 29, 2018 at 14:52
27

The first two I find objectionable:

We are not going to do your homework for you.

First, this is false. We might, if presented in the form of a good question.

And it may presume that the question is homework, when it might be bad and basic, but not actual homework. Someone who's asking about work may feel a bit offended about that presumption.


This is a very basic question which would be better answered by a [language] textbook.

That a question is very basic is not reason enough for it being a bad question. A question may be very basic, and still on topic, narrow, answerable and useful for future users.


One down the list I also dislike:

I see many errors in this code. You should have a face-to-face conversation with your instructor about it.

Again, presuming the existence of this instructor. The existence of many errors is mostly enough. That they need to narrow their problem and work a bit more on it is good. No need to bring out that they are in need of more instruction. That's up to them (unless they bring it up directly in some other way).


All the rest, I mostly like (at varying degrees, of course). They do not mention votes, and most are specific enough to possibly be helpful for the asker.

Many of them could be improved a bit to be less confrontational, though. Kendra's advise up here is excellent.

Commenting being a source of so much friction, the more we do to smooth things out if we are going to leave negative feedback, the better.

Because, addressing the actual title of your question, if you want to "be nice and still not feed the trolls or help vampires or whatever" the best strategy might still be to vote and move on.

If you are commenting, is because you want to do something else besides "not feed" these users, right? You are doing it because you want to help. Otherwise, what's the point?

3
  • 5
    My only problem with some of the rest of them is that they feel unnecessarily... Dismissive. The third one for example: "To answer this question properly would require an entire chapter of a [language] textbook." would say to me, as a new user, "Hey, it's too much work to help you, get lost." Instead it could say, "An answer for your question as written will be too long to be effective in our format. To get good answers, try narrowing your question down a bit to a single, very specific problem."_ And possible a line with a link to the MCVE page, too.
    – Kendra
    Commented Sep 27, 2018 at 18:38
  • 2
    @Kendra Yup, some of this I'd try to rewrite to be slightly less confrontantional. Or simply expand a bit. E.g. the one you quote, by simply expanding to "To answer this question properly would require an entire chapter of a [language] textbook. Stack Overflow requires questions to more specific for us to be able to help you" would pass muster in my book.
    – yivi
    Commented Sep 27, 2018 at 18:43
  • @yivi I have worked as a CS teaching assistant so I am perhaps overconfident in my ability to tell when something is a copy-and-paste of a homework assignment... definitely fair criticism
    – zwol
    Commented Sep 27, 2018 at 18:56
16

TL;DR: I only have any sort of problem with the first half of the comments. My main problem being that, while they are short, sweet, and to the point, they don't help anyone. You just say what's wrong. You don't suggest where the OP can look for help on how to improve. We have plenty of help pages they could use, posts on Meta, but you're just saying "You won't get an answer because X" and leaving the OP to figure out what's wrong about X and how to fix it.

Most OPs are going to either really hate that, or ignore it, because you give them nothing really actionable. It would be like flagging an answer and saying "This answer has X wrong with it." but not telling the mods what course of action you're suggesting to fix X.


Yivi pretty much summed up my main problems with the first two comments, but I have other feelings on the rest of them.

To answer this question properly would require an entire chapter of a [language] textbook.

I hit this up in a comment on Yivi's answer, but I'll throw it here for future proofing and keeping things together.

This comment feels unnecessarily dismissive. Accurate? Quite often. But this could be reworded better:

An answer for your question as written will be too long to be effective in our format. To get good answers, try narrowing your question down a bit to a single, very specific problem.

Potentially including a link to MCVE, along the lines of "You can see the [mcve] page of the help center for help on how you can narrow this down" or something. (With or without the magic link.)

While it says the same thing, and yes is slightly longer, it doesn't feel like a dismissive "Eh, too much work, go read up on it instead."

Stack Overflow is not geared for helping people get started with large projects. Please come back when you have a concrete and specific question.

A little confrontational, but true enough. I personally would reword this similar to

Stack Overflow's format is not fit for questions about getting started with projects. You'll get better answers if you try it on your own, and come back to us when you can't find an answer to a problem you hit.

Again, slightly longer, but more informative. After all, what is a specific question? Here, I've expanded a bit on what to come back with.

I see many errors in this code. You should have a face-to-face conversation with your instructor about it.

A couple things make this one not sit well with me. First, it assumes they're still in school and have an instructor. They could be a professional developer that is either really bad at coding, trying to fix code they inherited, or trying to learn a new language. Either way, this feels... Kinda insulting, but that's my opinion.

I do not understand what this program is supposed to do. Please explain.

I don't see a problem with this one. You might get snippy replies, but it's pretty clear the feedback you're giving here. My only suggestion might be to add specific bits you don't understand, but that's going to be case-by-case, and sometimes... There's really nothing more specific you can ask.

I do not know what you mean by "it doesn't work." Please be more specific.

Same as above, this is pretty clear feedback. No problems here that I see.

The bug is in code you have not showed us. Please read and follow the directions at https://stackoverflow.com/help/mcve.

Same as above. If you're at all worried about the first sentence sounding confrontational, it could be reworded to "I cannot reproduce your error, the bug may be in code you haven't shown us."

But honestly, I think this one's fine how it is.

As described, this is not possible. Please explain why you think you need to do this and maybe we can help you find a better solution.

Asking for clarification for an XY problem. Nothing problematic here.

This is a bad idea, because [reason]. Please explain why you think you need to do this and maybe we can help you find a better solution.

Same as the last one, and explaining the reason it's a bad idea makes it very helpful. Looks good to me.


So while the first set could be improved, and I would recommend it if you're trying to improve what new users think of your comments, your last five feel spot on to me.

Of course, keep in mind there will always be users who think you're rude or hate your comments, and refuse to cooperate. No amount of language tweaking can help that.

13

I would argue that the problem is less with your comments and more with the fact that you're commentating at all.

By commentating, you're placing a fairly large target on your back and making yourself vulnerable and susceptible to all kinds of accusations in spite of whatever intention you had.

You could be the nicest and most helpful person in the world and try to express that through in those comments. You're still going to sound like a jerk who just wants to bully someone who doesn't know any better.

So I wouldn't recommend these comments at all. They're not worth the time or energy. Invest energy in a feature that forces Stack Exchange to implement this kind of behavior on your behalf instead.

1
  • very true. I recently got wind of a lot of my comments that were flagged "unwelcoming". Some were, true, but a lot weren't and flags were declined. People flag stuff all the time. To avoid flagging, well, that's sad, but just don't comment. Commented Sep 29, 2018 at 8:39
1

While these comments are short and succinct, there is nothing I can see inherently wrong with any of them. (With one caveat: any question where you're giving that "better answered by a textbook" answer probably has already been asked and answered on this site before at some point, so the best close vote for that kind of question is a dupe vote so that the user might have a chance at getting an answer. Not everyone with Internet access can afford to buy a textbook, after all).

Now, it's true that some people might take offense at some of these comments (the "we are not going to do your homework for you" one is most likely to get an offended response, I would guess). But there is nothing inherently insulting in that comment itself; the only kind of person who would take offense at being told "I won't do your homework for you" is someone who expected others to do their work for them. In other words, the classic "help vampire" that SO wants to discourage. So that comment, too, is fine, IMHO.

0

First of all, props for discussing this and seeking input from the community. It's great when we can have a healthy conversation on our behavior in a non-confrontational way. That being said, here are my thoughts:

Some of the comment examples you've listed are fine, but some can come off as rude not so much because they are demeaning or intended to be mean, but rather merit a low "Emotional Quotient" score - they are cold, abrupt, and dismissive.

Ideally we can be impersonal while still being nice (as you say), but the key there is to understand that people are asking for help, and if responses seem dismissive and detached, that can cause people to get frustrated and feel hurt, ignored, or hopeless.

Many of the critiques below may have been partially or wholly addressed in other answers.

We are not going to do your homework for you.

This is abrupt, wrong, and not really worth saying; instead of saying you aren't going to help someone, just... don't help them; no need to tell them you aren't going to help them. Also, homework questions are not inherently off-topic. We "do" people's (home)work for them every time we write an answer; it's called helping.

Saying "we are not going to do this for you" lacks lots of nuance--what exactly are we not going to help with? Going from Step 1 to the End? How about Step 4 to the End? At what point in the process of solving the problem do we consider OP to have done enough of the work themselves? Too high up the ladder is paradoxical--it's unreasonable to expect them to do too much because if they were capable of that then they wouldn't need to ask the question in the first place.

This is a very basic question which would be better answered by a [language] textbook.

Basic questions are not inherently off-topic. If it is a specific, objectively-answerable question about programming or a programming tool that is not a duplicate, it's most likely fine.

To answer this question properly would require an entire chapter of a [language] textbook.

This is fine, though it would be helpful to say why that is bad (there are some quite long answers on SO... in the thousands of words, even); mention specifically that questions which are "too broad" are considered off-topic/out of scope for the site.

Stack Overflow is not geared for helping people get started with large projects. Please come back when you have a concrete and specific question.

Same as above--just say that this question is too broad. Also, one could have a concrete and specific question about a large project.

I see many errors in this code. You should have a face-to-face conversation with your instructor about it.

Why is there an instructor here? What if I wrote the code outside of a class? What if I'm not a student? If you see errors in the code, point them out, or ask them what their IDE error log or console tells them.

I do not understand what this program is supposed to do. Please explain.

This one is OK but phrased a little awkwardly; it would be better to make clear that the onus is on the asker to describe what their desired outcome is and how their current code differs that. This comment is worded in a way that makes it easy for the asker to think or even say that you simply aren't competent because you don't understand their question or code.

I do not know what you mean by "it doesn't work." Please be more specific.

This one's OK to me.

The bug is in code you have not showed us. Please read and follow the directions at https://stackoverflow.com/help/mcve.

This one's OK to me, but I would recommend you use the shortcut of [mcve] which autocompletes in comments to an embedded link with the title spelled out. I usually say "Please edit your question to include a [mcve]" (without the code tags)

As described, this is not possible. Please explain why you think you need to do this and maybe we can help you find a better solution.

This one seems OK to me.

This is a bad idea, because [reason]. Please explain why you think you need to do this and maybe we can help you find a better solution.

This one is OK to me but be careful with this because a lot of the time people are asking questions on how to do 'bad ideas' because they have to for work. At my job we have to support IE (though luckily just IE11) for websites and webapps, for example. So comments such as "Why are you trying to support IE? Just make it work on Chrome or Firefox or <browser>" are at best useless and at worst rude in those situations.

-3

I applaud your intention of being kind!

Maybe start by clarifying that a major goal of SO is to be a reference for future developers with similar questions. This helps provide guidance, clarifies your goals, and sets a context.

Perhaps a focus on helping them achieve their goals (if you choose to do so), and guiding them to reach SO's specific goal of (what you consider to be) a 'good' question?

Avoid comments that judge them personally, question their motives, or dwell on the negatives about their posting. They are likely feeling frustrated and stuck to start with; putting their confusion out for others to see puts them in a vulnerable position.

Yes, some (hopefully small) percentage will be wanting others to do their homework. I don't see that as ending well for them, once they reach the job market and workplace. Perhaps give them a hint as to their first step, to help them get started? Then the rest is up to them.

In your last several bullets, I will suggest switching to 'what goal are you trying to reach?' phrasing. Does it make sense that it would be easy for someone to take "explain why you think that" personally, as being about (and critical of) their thought processes? Better to focus on the technical problem they are trying to solve.

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