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With the new Code of Conduct, we see two groups of people: Group 1 argues that we should be more welcoming to new users; Group 2 argues that the new users get what they deserve, especially when they didn't read the Help Center or spend much time to think about the quality of their question.

I have to admit, I belong to Group 2. When I ask a questions, I do some research beforehand. I don't just google the question. I google the question, find related terms, google related terms, maybe find a blind spot of mine, I improve eventually, and I eventually ask. I always proof-read my own questions, so my questions usually have good code indentation, for example. Many new users obviously did not proof-read their own question, and many new users certainly don't care about such mundane things as code indentation.

A question that hasn't been asked before is "why don't new users read the help center?". I think the reason is that it seems like "terms and conditions" (T&C) to most. Users don't read T&Cs, because most of the time the writer of the T&C doesn't really care if the user reads the T&Cs. All that the T&C-writer cares is that they will be able to prove in court that the user agreed to the T&Cs and that he is therefore not liable for the users claims. The T&C serve as a disclaimer of liability, and a normal user has no intention of suing Stack Exchange, so from the new user's point of view it makes no sense to actually read the T&Cs. Do you give away copyright to SE if you post something? New users mostly doesn't care. (Some users also lack English skills. I'm not a native speaker, and sometimes native speakers assume that I would be more tolerant to bad grammar because English is not my first language. The opposite is the case: a question that is barely comprehensible to a English native speaker is certainly totally incomprehensible to me.)

The problem gets worse in the European Union, because recently we have the GDPR, and all websites are flooded with useless cookie banners and privacy notices that no user has ever asked for. When I see a banner on a website that doesn't scroll with the site and which has a "close"/"accept"/"x" button, I just tap that button; I don't read the message, or at least I try not to read it. Because such banners usually provide no value whatsoever to me. I think the European Commission really didn't help anyone here.

So, how can we tell users:

This is the "how to ask" page (link), you are supposed to read it, you are supposed to follow the rules, and if you do not, we are going to punish you; punishment includes heavy downvoting, closing or even deleting of your questions, snarky comments, and even question bans. So please make sure to ask good questions, to proof-read your own questions, and make sure to indent your code properly.

I want to invite discussion about the topic.

  • Do you agree with me that new users don't read the "how to ask" pages because they seem like T&Cs, and reading T&Cs is usually a waste of time? Or do you have a different explanation?

  • What can we do to actually encourage new users to understand the terms? (I have some ideas, e.g. we could show new users a bunch of posts that are either clearly on-topic or clearly off-topic, and they have to decide which is which. This will be a quiz, only if you succeed in the quiz you are allowed to ask questions.)

  • Anything else?

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    unfortunately, we can do nothing in most of the cases simply because many users don't care about the site at all. Here is a basic logic : "I have an issue and I am blocked, let me post a fast question in many websites and forums (SO is in the list) and let's hope I get at least one hint even in the comments. If I got it, then let's move and let them fight (downvote, close, etc)." ... "I have another issue, let's start again ..." .."Oh I got banned, no problem let's create another account" Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 14:46
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    I think it’s not just GDPR banners, it’s modal dialogs in general: something pops up in the middle of the screen, “Sign up for our newsl–” – dismiss!; “Here’s how to ask a good qu–” – dismiss! – oops! Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 14:46
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    "A question that hasn't been asked before is "why new users don't read the help center"." Citation needed. This question gets asked all the time. Even by people on SO's staff. It's been brought up here on MSO and on MSE. There's been plenty of discussion about how best to teach new users how to ask questions correctly. Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 14:55
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    Do you guys think my question should be closed because it is "too broad"? Because 3 people think so and voted to close this question as "too broad". I think they should be more welcoming to new meta users ;) - The two answers below show that my question can be answered in a meaningful way.
    – Michael
    Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 16:29
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    Who do you consider the "new meta users"? It can't be yourself seeing you have 13 meta posts, some dating back over 4 years.... Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 16:45
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    I have to say the last bullit point really doesn't help you case for making this question not seem too broad. Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 16:55
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    @AndréKool: ok thanks, I've learned something. Now I understand why some people despise Stack Overflow. Just being open to alternative explanations doesn't make the question broader IMHO.
    – Michael
    Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 16:58
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    And how is appropriate closure 'unwelcoming'? As long as users want to see moderation as hostile, we'll be in that whole 'welcoming-CoC' debacle.... That's the main dichotomy we're seeing now. Veterans want moderation to keep quality up. New users sees ANYTHING that isn't upvote or answer as hostile. That truly doesn't make for productive discussion or growth....
    – Patrice
    Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 21:47
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    @Patrice: Your comment is unwelcoming. I think my question is on-topic on meta and 20 people agree (upvotes), 4 people disagree (downvotes). You think that closing my question is "appropriate closure", I think it is not. - Thanks to whoever reopened my question.
    – Michael
    Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 22:01
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    @Michael did I says anything about your question here? Sorry if my wording makes you guess I meant that,but I truly didn't. I meant what I said, which is that moderation isn't unwelcoming. The people who voted to close your question were wrong, it wasn't too broad. These people weren't 'unwelcoming'. They made a mistake in their assessment, or see the question differently. My point is that by throwing back and forth 'youre unwelcoming' (just like you're doing here) NOTHING will change. If we want this community to evolve, we need to talk, not hit one another with 'unwelcoming'.
    – Patrice
    Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 22:03
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    Is it just me or does the "do not" part in the title sound really weird? (Disclaimer, english is my second language) Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 22:14
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    @Michael my point wasn't to discuss any specific closure. It was to address the fact you saw the close votes on this question as 'unwelcoming'. I was highlighting that moderation isn't unwelcoming. It's moderation. The users who voted to close your question were mistaken. They didn't take the appropriate action here. That doesn't make this any less welcoming. That makes it a mistake. Or a disagreement
    – Patrice
    Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 23:09
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    It's a problem that many people think that everything should be explainable ein 1 minute. It's not. It's not true for politics, it's not true for programming, and it's not true for Stack Overflow.
    – Michael
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 11:39
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    I think the European Commission really didn't help anyone here. Well, these are not about users reading the popups. The whole idea is to make companies rethink their ways and stop intruding on our privacy which will stay illegal no matter what the banners say. But the actual texts are, guess what, too long to read unless you are paid for. Which always makes all the difference..
    – TaW
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 12:23
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    The site has done an absolutely horrible job of preparing new users for how the site actually operates for a very long time. No where in the Tour or How To Ask is there anything at all about doing research, including code, code as text not a picture etc. ALL the top close reasons ought to be covered. And when the list changes, the Welcome/Sign up screens should change. The next question is should such a page be required? Maybe, but if/when someone does take the time it ought to actually prepare them for the site ops Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 16:40

5 Answers 5

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Do you agree with me that new users don't read the "how to ask" pages because they seem like TOC, and reading TOC is usually a waste of time? Or do you have a different explanation?

New users of the sort you are referring to typically don't read "how to ask" because:

  1. They don't have to.

  2. They don't want to.

  3. It would get in the way of doing the thing they came here to do: ask their question.

When such people come to this site, they are not interested in community norms; they want a fix for their problem. It doesn't matter if you shove a full-screen pop-up in their face. It doesn't matter how you say it or where it is or anything. They want a fix, and they'll click through anything to get to asking their question.

What can we do to actually encourage new users to understand the terms?

This is why the ask question wizard is so important. Since it is their interface to asking questions, they can't ignore it. And the interface tries to force them to at least provide enough information to make their question reasonable.

You're not going to make new users of the kind you're referring to understand the site. The best we can do is encourage them to formulate their questions better before asking, or to develop some AI heuristic to cull their bad questions out before they get on the site. SO is aiming firmly at the former.

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    @MartinJames: Why do you do that? Why do you constantly turn everything from a neutral "these people want their answers" into a belligerent "these people are confidence artists trying to steal life from other people"? Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 17:20
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    ..because that's how it appears. Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 18:03
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    This is why the ask question wizard is so important. Full Ack. When I suggested it my post was downvoted and finally deleted. Great to hear it wasn't all lost.
    – TaW
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 10:09
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The kind of text you're talking about has a wonderful and very prescribed purpose: It helps people that already mostly know what it says refer to it for guidance as their memory gets a little fuzzy over the years.

To put it plainly, having a heightened sense of urgency can sometimes make folks lose sight of (or fail to contemplate entirely) long-term consequences, especially in scenarios where they'd never envision consequences to be present - much less dire. This is, essentially, why all the text in the world doesn't help new folks; we're still so unique that it wouldn't occur to anyone that rules wouldn't be intuitive as they went.

There are less charitable explanations as well, and I won't pretend that they don't apply pretty frequently, but we try to design solutions based on cases where folks have an honest desire to succeed and not cause grief.

So, what can we do? What will we do?

Our research has shown that most people search prior to asking and at least try to get a sense of what's needed to be successful. A big problem: our UX doesn't come close to conveying the depth and breadth of what one doesn't know when it comes to how to be successful here.

There's two things we need to do urgently, and are underway:

  • We need to audit all UX messaging, make it consistent for tone, and make sure it actually does its job of preparing people's expectations.
  • We need to overhaul the new user experience greatly. The new wizard is going to be a big help and I think we'll know more about what the problem looks like once we see what that doesn't help us solve, but on-boarding in general from a new user's perspective stinks in ways that the community has zero influence or control over, and that's on us to fix.

Our UX / Design teams are currently prioritizing this, but it's a long process, and it's hard to define a roadmap more publicly for this stuff because what you do next depends strongly on what you discover next, and you never can be certain what that is.

The other problem we're facing is it's so darn hard to surface consensus. In a system where we want the people with the most information and experience having the most input in how we shape the rules, there needs to be a clearer path from 'discussion' to 'consensus' and ultimately to 'it's in the UX now'. What that looks like varies wildly from area to area, are we talking about handling tags, or enforcing extra information certain tags absolutely must have in order for questions to be answerable?

A definite roadmap is still a little blurry at this point. We know we need one.

Our strategy is to work to solve the broadest cases here, through better UX and just-in-time help to get folks what they absolutely need at the moment while tempting them to revisit the topic and learn more.

We're doing stuff now that helps alleviate some of the immediate concern, while giving us a bit more room to do some more responsible and comprehensive research, which ultimately lets me put together a roadmap that better illustrates what we're doing and why. And, we really appreciate all of you being patient with us while we do this.

But this isn't a closed door kinda thing, do you have ideas on how on boarding could be better? How about a path from discussion to actually having rules enforced by the UX using a consistent tone? How about just finding ways to show consensus on something you search for on meta to begin with? Discovery here is kinda difficult.

I didn't mean to write a book here, but it's a lot to talk about, and that's only touching on the stuff I'm sure enough we're doing to toss out without worrying about expectations being set. It's a pretty deep hole.

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    Since you asked for suggestions: I'm actually starting to think that we should force new users to read an article that explains the key points of SO to them ("SO is Q&A, not a forum", "SO is about building a knowledge repository, not debugging your code", etc), and they shouldn't be allowed to post questions until they've read through all of it. Basically like the tour page, but with less fluff (there are more important things to explain than badges and reputation), and making it extremely clear that ignoring this information will have bad consequences.
    – Aran-Fey
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 15:16
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    The only way is to somehow lock down those questions. Possibly a review queue to allow them onto the site. With one vote to allow it to be visible. "heuristics" and voodoo magic on what rep threshold or if tag badges are to be included for access to the review queue. A bronze badge in any tag or a rep of 500? Not going to bother posting an answer or question about it. There's been a few hundred already with ideas
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 15:41
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    Huh. That might actually work. The problem though is so many things for people to manually go through. We'd have to open review queues to people with much lower rep, or rate-limit it somehow. Also it takes new codies a bit long to get to 500. I'd be perfectly comfortable with someone around 50, maybe 100 being let in (they can comment already). That's a different discussion though.
    – Cullub
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 4:07
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    @YvetteColomb "possibly a review queue" - my confidence in review queues is somewhere below zero, just look at triage and the suggested edits queue. I don't think another review queue would help anybody, with the exception of the folks who robo-collect review badges or test their autoclicker scripts.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 15:05
  • @l4mpi yes totally agree. Which is why it would need to be super simple. One review. Maybe the criteria to use the review queue is x upvoted questions or answers with y upvotes. The ability to be able to discern what makes a question useful. Who knows.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 15:37
  • @YvetteColomb we could use my fake review queue idea from a few years back for on-boarding new users? It's interactive vs walls of text, which I know I would have preferred when starting out on SO.
    – Tanner
    Commented Sep 3, 2018 at 8:28
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    @Tanner an awesome idea. Anything that helps to educate new users how to use the site and what's expected of them. People may complain about having to jump through a few hoops, but it's a means to an end to participate on the site.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 3, 2018 at 8:33
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    @YvetteColomb thanks, I'm going to spend some time updating that post, as it's pretty old, so going to review some of the old feedback and fine tune it.
    – Tanner
    Commented Sep 3, 2018 at 8:35
  • Just pinging for an update on the ask question wizard. We've had bits and bobs in testing for a while, but no clear, "This is what it is, this is when it'll be released".
    – fbueckert
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 16:32
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Let's start where new users start: with the How to Ask page, which is:

  1. Vague

    "Be specific" is, ironically, very vague and general. Do we assume people think a vague question is fine and being told "you need to be specific" will make them ask a better question?

    The user will have no idea what's actually on topic if they don't follow links (which they probably won't).

    We need some more specific guidance, like "post an MCVE", "no general computing questions" or "no recommendations".

  2. Irrelevant

    "Make it relevant to others" and "Keep an open mind"? Do we really believe either of those will have any impact whatsoever on question quality or the new user experience?

  3. Too long

    • More bullet points
    • Fewer sentences

    I wouldn't expect anyone to even notice that they're not supposed to ask for opinions nor ask questions about the site itself, because that information is hidden in the middle of a paragraph.

  4. Lacking teeth

    The message I'm currently getting from reading that is "this will help you get an answer", which doesn't do much to convey the fact that a particularly bad question will get deleted in a few minutes and you'll get banned if you try to keep posting such questions. We should at least try to make it clearer that these are the rules, instead of making it seem like these are some general guidelines which you're free to follow if you want and there isn't really any consequences to not doing so (apart from maybe making getting an answer slightly less likely).

    There's a time and a place for "help us help you"-style messages, but that time and place is not the first message we show new users.

  5. Not very visible

    It's only shown for your very first question (right?), and it doesn't even seem to appear in the Help Center (there's another How to Ask page, but that's different for some reason and has similar problems as mentioned here).

    At least show it for the first few questions, and/or while they're below some reputation, and maybe if you haven't asked a question in a while.

  6. Easy to ignore

    Yes, that is always a hard problem to solve, and a wizard might indeed help here to banish to the void people breaking the rules(oh, probably not that type of wizard).

    I recall someone else also proposing a quiz at some point.

I would try to come up with my take on how it should look, but I seem to remember already having done that at some point (although I may change some stuff if I were to do it all over again).

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    What's the page that you've linked to a screenshot of, above? It's not the "asking help" page linked from stackoverflow.com/questions/ask; that's stackoverflow.com/help/how-to-ask. It's not any of the 5 pages linked under "asking" at stackoverflow.com/help. It's not of the first page of Google results for site:stackoverflow.com "how to ask". I don't recall seeing it before. I agree that the advice in it is vague, and further think that some of it is counterproductive. But where is it?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 11:59
  • Given the checkbox, I guess it's some sort of user agreement that comes up when creating an account (or when asking your first question?) that you have to agree to but which you're then never permitted to see ever again, except by creating a sockpuppet (which you presumably had to do in order to get the screenshot above)? That... seems obviously problematic in itself.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 12:00
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    @MarkAmery Yes, it's the page you see when asking your first question. I think it used to be under /questions/how-to-ask, judging by what I wrote in the post I linked to, but now that's just the same as the one under /help/how-to-ask and I'm not sure you can get to the other one any more as an experienced user (even when I posted that I'm not sure there was actually a link to it anywhere - maybe there was one when asking a question, not sure). Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 15:56
  • Great post. The How To Ask can simply be a list of Do and Do Not type items. Do include code as text / Do Not post pictures of text. For all the main Close Reasons and DV reasons to help the average Elbonian get up to speed quickly. It need not even explain why right there, perhaps in a link/tool tip. Nor does it need to touch on the lesser sins like tags in titles to prevent it from getting too long. Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 0:39
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    @MarkAmery You can find the page I linked to under /questions/ask/advice (although I still don't think there's a link to it anywhere). Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 8:44
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One thing that might help is to have a form for new users with questions about SO, where the answers to the form can be found in the help centre. To post you need to fill in the form correctly. If someone posts a really bad question you'll know with almost 100% certainty that they did not care about what they just read.

Another thing is to have an activation period of a couple of days. This would prevent people from creating an account just to ask a quick question. I'm actually pretty amazed by how easy it is to create an account for a quick question. It's basically easier than retrieving the password to your current account. To be honest, I think that many help vampires creates a new account for each question.

-1

We can't.

I think you're absolutely right in your assessment of the code of conduct, noise generated by GDPR, and all of that. But the fundamental assumption being made is that there is something that will make people in "group 1" follow the rules. I contend that's not possible.

SO stands in stark contrast to most of the web - There are not many places on the web where a user is expected to RTFM before interacting with the site, and so it cannot be surprising that rather a lot of users don't, and won't ever do so here.

This is the fundamental clash that's happening (reiterated over and over and over) . Group 2 is attracted to the site because it hits that sweet spot of useful contributors and outstanding format that was so lacking in forums, experts exchange, etc. But SO is a business, and businesses need growth. Eventually you've captured all the diligent users who would spend the time to read codes of conduct, help center articles, tag wikis, related questions, suggested questions, google-able questions, and all the rest. If you want more users, you simply must try to attract those from the rest of the curve who do not share that sense of propriety.

Questions like this one assume that the influx of "Group 1" users can be guided, taught, and shepherded into success. We're seeing that they don't care. They didn't pass on the Help Center because it was too hard to find, or looked like a EULA, or because it had a lot of big words. They ignored it because they don't care - they're not interested in the history, culture, or purpose of SO. Not everybody has the time or compassion to get a good feel for this sort of stuff. Sometimes, they just want to know how to get a passing grade on their homework or work assignment that's due tomorrow. Sometimes they just want teh codez, and they'll be angry and throw accusations at anyone who stands in their way of accomplishing that.

While it's noble to try to figure out how to help this sort of user, I think we're finding out the same thing that teachers and professors all over the world learn about their students; you can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

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