326

Right now, a negative question/answer score is prefixed with a dash (U+002D). It should be prefixed with a minus sign (U+2212) instead, which is the typographically correct character. The minus sign has the HTML4 named entity −, so its availability should be good. Here is a visual comparison:

-4 (dash)
−4 (minus sign)
+4 (plus sign, for reference)

Side by side comparison:

Minus sign side by side comparison

77
  • 155
    This is ultimately going to be down to taste. To me, the typographically incorrect character looks much better - it's much smaller. The correct character is way too big.
    – Pekka
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 11:23
  • 7
    @Tunaki: Is that not what's already in use (in places where the positive sign actually matters anyway)?
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 11:25
  • 19
    Literally nitpicking though.
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 12:31
  • 104
    What makes a minus 'too big' when a plus in the same position is not? In most fonts, the minus is exactly as wide as the plus sign by design, to avoid a jarring jump when there is a +x above a -x. By that token, an adjustment of the size of the + character to make it as narrow as the - should work as well. Not so: the stem widths would be different.
    – Jongware
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 12:48
  • 239
    If screen readers are reading the post score as "dash 4" instead of "minus 4" or "negative 4", then it should be changed.
    – BSMP
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 16:07
  • 59
    Doing this also lines up the number better. I think it's a good idea.
    – user2535467
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 16:46
  • 35
    @BSMP Testing with NVDA ver. 2015.2, negative scores are read as: "Minus {score}". I don't have JAWS, so I can't test with that.
    – zero298
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 17:57
  • 23
    OS X "Text to Speech" feature read negative scores as "Minus {score}" too. Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 19:55
  • 26
    You should point out in your question that doing so align the numbers. Which improve readability because it's easier for the eyes. Many reader don't realize it. Adding it will make them realize it. To me there is no doubt that it's an improvement, but also I won't be surprised to see to other stuff coming first before this one.
    – AXMIM
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 20:44
  • 9
    @Bardicer The OP's text is not an em dash. The minus character is a distinct character.
    – Nayuki
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 20:52
  • 8
    @MageXy: the image you show does not make your point. The -10 is very clearly narrower than the +76. Also, in most commonly used fonts, the digits are 'tabular lining', that is, they are all equal width, and the + and minus are as well. The number of signs and the number of digits above and below are the same, so they should align. No need for monospaced text at all.
    – Jongware
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 22:28
  • 6
    @MageXy I can't follow your argument. Look at the image in the post for how well aligned it looks with the correct minus sign. After all, that's the character that is intended to be used for this purpose.
    – fuz
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 23:44
  • 20
    U+002D isn't a dash. It's a compromise between two glyphs (hyphen and minus), neither of which is a dash.
    – hobbs
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 2:53
  • 28
    @BSMP The screen reading software I use actually prefers the "wrong" character. It literally says "minus four". Using the proposed fix, it says "Minus sign four" which doesn't seem like an improvement.
    – vcsjones
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 15:05
  • 20
    Waiting for Jeff to come by and hit you with a large −.
    – Madara's Ghost Mod
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 20:34

9 Answers 9

34

This strikes me as an astoundingly frivolous feature-request (and no, I don't consider it a bug).

I eagerly await the related request to change the character required to search for negatively-scored posts.

Also on the edge of my seat waiting for the Kickstarter to fund a keyboard with your fancy Unicode minus sign in place of the normal one.

...Also, how could you have overlooked the existence of U+2796, the heavy minus sign! Downvoting is important and deserves emphasis - if we're gonna go clogging up the markup with weird, exotic symbols, it should be for a good cause - to slap folks in the faces with the magnitude of their wrongitude.

Compare, minus sign:

Heavy minus sign:

The choice is clear.

22
  • 37
    The popularity of this question is a very good example of Parkinson's Law of Triviality. Commented Mar 3, 2016 at 0:48
  • 9
    Making the search function still yield the expected result isn't going to be a problem if my model of how Stack Overflow works is correct. After all, I'm only asking that the representation of a signed integer is changed in a single place. I'm not asking that Stack Overflow is delivering JSON with − instead of - to describe negative numbers, I'm merely asking that the way the score is displayed is changed.
    – fuz
    Commented Mar 3, 2016 at 1:32
  • 8
    I called out the triviality of captializing the "P" in "Possible duplicate", but was downvoted like crazy and the change went through. People like their triviality.
    – davidism
    Commented Mar 3, 2016 at 2:05
  • 6
    I still resent that change.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Mar 3, 2016 at 3:29
  • 27
    How about using the hyphen for -0 to -5, the minus sign from -6 to -10, and the heavy minus sign from -11 to -infinity? Then the size actually does indicate the magnitude of wrongness!
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 4, 2016 at 0:20
  • 8
    Stack Overflow: *slap folks in the faces with the magnitude of their wrongitude*
    – cat
    Commented Mar 4, 2016 at 3:54
  • 2
    Is Jeff going to switch to a giant - and beat the OP with it? Commented Mar 4, 2016 at 17:11
  • 11
    If it wasn't Shog9, I'd say this post is condescending. So I guess it is. Commented Mar 4, 2016 at 17:56
  • 5
    How can I possibly be condescending here, @Andras? I've clearly been using the wrong math symbol for like 20 years; pretty sure that makes me literally a philistine.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Mar 4, 2016 at 19:56
  • 11
    This was requested a long time ago for similar reasons and rejected for similar reasons. Might have been in the uservoice days.. everything old is new again! Commented Mar 11, 2016 at 11:07
  • 5
    Hypen should be deprecated as an arithmetic operator in Python 4.0! Who's with me.
    – Bob Stein
    Commented Mar 22, 2016 at 21:56
  • 4
    Accepting this as that's the resolution of the feature request. However much I disagree with it.
    – fuz
    Commented Apr 19, 2016 at 21:13
  • 2
    The rephrasing of that as “We intentionally use the dash, otherwise users to have to type in the Unicode minus sign in place of the normal one, something keyboards don't currently support.” is a falsehood. This feature request only affects what the Stack Exchange software displays, not user input. (By the way: Markdown allows writing the character as −. Still more than one keystroke, but not actually all that inconvenient. So even the decreased usability part is also false.)
    – dumbass
    Commented May 1, 2023 at 19:57
  • 2
    People routinely copy output as input for logically equivalent values, @user3840170. Typographically-correct is great - when typesetting is the goal. But foolish fixation on typographical symbols in other contexts leads to little gain and much pain; it's been only a short while since the last time a colleague wasted time trying to figure out why example code didn't work, only to realize that it had been composed on a Mac and the meaning of its quotes lost. For a list of sites where mathematical typography is helpful, supported and often-used, see meta.stackexchange.com/q/216606
    – Shog9
    Commented May 1, 2023 at 20:58
  • 6
    Let's not completely remove the tone and tongue-in-cheek sarcasm the original author intended... The answer is quite darn old, hasn't been a problem in that time, and frankly, isn't even offensive.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 2, 2023 at 6:44
141

It should be corrected to use the minus sign instead of -:

  • To improve typographical correctness;
  • And to correct the alignment of the digits on the upvotes and the downvotes.

Using CSS is not an alternative. Fonts will ensure that the minus sign is, by its definition, the same width as the plus sign; but a CSS approach will fail for those cases where a user style-sheet overrides Stack Overflow's stylesheet.

8
  • 13
    Note: This is not about alignment. I agree that alignment looks better with the proper symbol, but it's about using an actual minus sign in the first place.
    – fuz
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 13:28
  • Yes, @FUZxxl , thank you, that was oversight from me.
    – ANeves
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 14:40
  • 4
    @FUZxxl the only reason I agree with using the minus comes down to alignment. Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 15:07
  • 2
    @FUZxxl: The - symbol can be used both for minus and hyphen. Yes, it's only a compromise, but it's not wrong.
    – Bergi
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 16:26
  • 7
    @Bergi That's for compatibility reasons. Typographically it is wrong. And that's all that matters.
    – fuz
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 17:06
  • When FUZxxl wrote "this is not about alignment", he meant the question. And he's right, the question is not about alignment. So, the original start of the answer (It should be alligned:) was wrong, and I corrected it. I think the other comments are misplaced in this answer.
    – ANeves
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 17:36
  • 7
    Wow. I didn't even know that you could close a meta question as “primarily opinion based.”
    – fuz
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 18:20
  • "And to correct the alignment of the upvotes with the downvotes" -- How would you then get double-digit upvotes aligned with single-digit downvotes? Heck, the triple-digit scores don't even show the symbol anyway!
    – Abhitalks
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 7:33
30

Dashes vs hyphens vs minus in HTML5 Speech. I doubt this is actually specified

PS: Only works in Safari and Chrome AFAIK

PPS: I'm not voting. Just passing on info

const signs = [
  ['\u002d', 'hyphen-minus'],
  ['\u2010', 'hyphen'],
  ['\u2011', 'non-breaking hyphen'],
  ['\u2012', 'figure dash'],
  ['\u2013', 'en dash'],
  ['\u2014', 'em dash',],
  ['\u2015', 'horizontal bar'],
  ['\u2043', 'hyphen bullet'],
  ['\u2212', 'minus'],
  ['\u2e3a', 'two-em dash'],
  ['\u2e3b', 'three-em dash'],
];

const sentences = [
  {
    text: s => `value is ${s}1`,
    expect: "minus",
    good: '\u2212',
    okay: '\u002d',
  },
  {
    text: s => `Y equals 69X${s}420`,
    expect: "minus",
    good: '\u2212',
    okay: '\u002d',
  },
  {
    text: s => `document 69X${s}420`,
    expect: "dash",
    good: '\u2012',
  },
  {
    text: s => `evaluate C${s}3PO and R2${s}D2 before repairing them`,
    good: '\u2010\u2011',
    okay: '\u002d',
  },
  {
    text: s => `evaluate C${s}3PO and R2${s}D2 for PO = R2 = 5`,
    expect: "minus",
    good: '\u2212',
    okay: '\u002d',
  },
  {
    text: s => `values are: ${s} 1 ${s} 2 ${s} 3`,
    good: '\u2043\u2015',
  },
  {
    text: s => `QAnon${s}4chan connection`,
    good: '\u2013',
  },
  {
    text: s => `none${s}3dfx excluded`,
    good: '\u2014',
    okay: '\u2013\u2e3a\u2e3b',
  },
];

document.addEventListener('click', ev => {
  const button = ev.target.closest('button');
  if (!button) return;
  const { sentence } = button.dataset;
  const msg = new SpeechSynthesisUtterance();
  msg.voiceURI = 'native';
  msg.volume = 1; // 0 to 1
  msg.lang = 'en-US';
  msg.text = sentence;
  speechSynthesis.speak(msg);
});

const table = document.createElement('table');

const html = (pieces, ...values) =>
  String.raw({ raw: pieces }, ...values.map(
    s => s.replaceAll(
      /[<"'&]/gu,
      c => `&#${c.codePointAt(0)};`)));

const tr = document.createElement('tr');
tr.insertAdjacentHTML('afterbegin', html`
  <th scope="col">phrase</th>
  <th scope="col">reference</th>
`);

for (const [sign, name] of signs) {
  tr.insertAdjacentHTML('beforeend', html`
    <th scope="col">U+${
      sign.codePointAt(0).toString(16).toUpperCase().padStart(4, '0')
    }&nbsp;(${sign}):<br>${name}</th>
  `);
}
table.appendChild(tr);

for (const { text, expect, good, okay } of sentences) {
  const tr = document.createElement('tr');

  tr.insertAdjacentHTML('beforeend', html`
      <th scope="row">
        ${text(expect ? `[${expect}]` : good.charAt(0))}
      <td>
        <button
          data-sentence="${text(` ${expect ?? ""} `)}"
          class="ref">play</button>
  `);

  for (const [sign, name] of signs) {
    tr.insertAdjacentHTML('beforeend', html`
      <td>
        <button
          data-sentence="${text(sign)}"
          class="${
            (good ?? '').indexOf(sign) !== -1 ? 'good' :
            (okay ?? '').indexOf(sign) !== -1 ? 'okay' :
            ''
          }">play</button>
    `);
  }
 
  table.appendChild(tr);
}

document.body.appendChild(table);
body { line-height: 200%; }
button { background: maroon; color: white; }
button.good { background: green; }
button.okay { background: olive; }
button.ref { background: gray; }
table { border-collapse: collapse; }
td, th { border: 1px solid gray; padding: 0.2em; }
th[scope="row"] { text-align: left; }
th[scope="col"] { vertical-align: top; }
td, th[scope="col"] { text-align: center; }

12
  • 9
    For me, on Chrome 48, with the minus symbol, it speaks "Value equals one".
    – Cᴏʀʏ
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 22:51
  • 1
    @Cᴏʀʏ Chrome 49 as well.
    – SeinopSys
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 23:20
  • Firefox 44 on Windows at work, with the latest version of JAWS (trial) installed: said "minus one" for both. Commented Mar 3, 2016 at 0:07
  • I'm using Chrome 48 too, but for both the dash and minus it said "value equals negative one". Commented Mar 3, 2016 at 0:44
  • 8
    on OSX Chrome it says "minus 1" for dash and "minus sign 1" for minus
    – user128511
    Commented Mar 3, 2016 at 4:18
  • On Chrome 49.0.2623.75 on Linux, it speaks "minus 1" for both.
    – cat
    Commented Mar 4, 2016 at 3:52
  • 1
    I got "negative one" for both on Chrome 49.0.2623.87 m on Windows 7.
    – KRyan
    Commented Mar 22, 2016 at 19:09
  • 1
    Firefox 48 (Linux) says “one” for -1 and “minus one” for −1. Commented Jun 5, 2016 at 12:47
  • It's speaks "minus one" for both cases here / Chrome 54.0.2840.100 on Linux (RHEL 7.2)
    – wim
    Commented Dec 30, 2016 at 18:55
  • Still not working for me in Windows 10 Chrome 70.0.3528.0. I've filed a bug: bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=875978 Commented Aug 20, 2018 at 20:02
  • At some point they required a user gesture to make sounds and finally added the same restriction here. Updated to fix it.
    – user128511
    Commented Jun 22, 2019 at 5:23
  • I replaced the snippet with a version that does not misname the characters. (The ‘dash’ was actually a hyphen.)
    – dumbass
    Commented May 1, 2023 at 18:01
29

First of all, the question is deceptively worded, since U+002D is called hyphen-minus, not dash. Which dilutes the strength of the argument considerably.

(Yes, the title was edited to say "hyphen" instead of "dash", which is an improvement; but it still feels slightly evasive, and the illustrative example still says "dash".)

I am sympathetic to the idea that "minus sign" (U+2212) might be the most semantically appropriate choice. I'm also sympathetic to the idea that typographical alignment is generally desirable.

If U+2212 consistently improved screen-reader results versus U+002D, that would be enough to sway me into the U+2212 camp. As it stands, the results suggest U+2212 is not a clear improvement on this front, and could actually make things worse.

On balance, I think hyphen-minus is semantically and aesthetically "right enough" that it's not worth changing.

4
  • 3
    I'm sorry, I'm not a native speaker. I thought - was called dash until I researched the name further, thus the edit.
    – fuz
    Commented Mar 3, 2016 at 11:41
  • 8
    @FUZxxl It is called a dash. It's also called a hyphen. It's the Unicode specification that gives this particular symbol the name "hyphen-minus".
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 4, 2016 at 0:28
  • 2
    @jpmc26: Well, it all depends on how loose you want to be with the terminology. You could argue that a hyphen is a kind of dash. But that isn't how a typographer would talk about it, especially when just using the term dash by itself, with no other context, implies something very different. FUZxxl and others have been making arguments based on either typography or semantics, and the whole point of the Unicode name is to identify glyphs as what they are "meant" to be. Otherwise any number of horizontal line glyphs would work equally well here.
    – John Y
    Commented Mar 4, 2016 at 4:54
  • U+002D (HYPHEN-MINUS). UTF-8 0x2D. Commented May 2, 2023 at 14:14
18

The fate of the true typographic dashes was sealed in the late nineteenth century when typewriter manufacturers used the jack-of-all trades hyphen-minus on their too-crowded keyboards. Then the battle for computer typography was lost in the early 1960s, when ASCII put only a hyphen in their character set.

13
  • 76
    But now we have Unicode. Why does it matter that ASCII doesn't have a proper minus sign? It's not that I demand you type it in all the time.
    – fuz
    Commented Feb 29, 2016 at 23:43
  • 29
    @Raedwald By this argument, curly quotes have lost the battle too, right?
    – Nayuki
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 2:40
  • 15
    I'm quite sure @Raedwald was just joking. +1 for advanced sense of humour!
    – Molibar
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 2:57
  • 46
    −1 for false pessimism
    – anatolyg
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 11:27
  • 31
    @anatolyg +1 for correct −1.
    – fuz
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 11:36
  • 9
    @Raedwald, mind Poe's Law: «without a clear indicator of the author's intent, parodies of extreme views will be mistaken by some readers or viewers for sincere expressions of the parodied views.»
    – ANeves
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 12:05
  • 23
    dang.. this answer... looks so calm at 0 score but its +30/-30. Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 13:46
  • 1
    @MrLister What, your keyboard has a l key? Nifty! Where do they put it? Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 14:05
  • @FᴀʀʜᴀɴAɴᴀᴍ - How do you check that?
    – rohithpr
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 14:35
  • @praroh1 There's a privilege which allows you to see the breakdown of votes : Established user : stackoverflow.com/help/privileges Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 14:40
  • 5
    @praroh1 “View Vote totals” without 1000 rep
    – Oriol
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 23:01
  • 1
    My comment's obsolete now.... It's +73/-52 .... still controversial. Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 18:26
  • 2
    @FUZxxl "Now we have Uncidoe" Pfffffft. Unicode is a mess. Things are certainly better than they used to be for large character sets, but things are far from smoothed out. Try this, for instance. (His examples of things going wrong don't even render incorrectly, as the text indicates they should, in my browser.) Additionally, the adoption is nowhere near widespread; there's a ton of new code churned out every day with improper Unicode handling. (Heck, I bet both you and I are guilty of it.)
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 20:38
3

A while ago, I wrote a user script to replace hyphens in front of negative scores with minus signs. It works pretty great: no perceptible slowdowns, no re-layouting or flickering, the minus signs show up instantly as if they were there from the beginning, even in dynamic content. The biggest drawback is that it kind of makes me cringe now every time I open Stack Exchange in a mobile browser, where I cannot install user scripts.

But honestly, I shouldn’t have had to do it. It would have been much more fitting to do it in the Stack Exchange software proper, where each place where a negative value may be displayed is easily found, instead of condemning authors of user script workarounds to playing scraping whack-a-mole.

It’s not the 1960s any more, where one had to squeeze distinct characters together to avoid running out of typewriter keys or code points in an 8-bit code page. Unicode exists now, support for it is ubiquitous, it has separate code points for each kind of horizontal line, so use them as intended! If Stack Exchange are so convinced that hyphens are superior to actual minus signs, why not remove the latter from the Achievements pop-up menu, where they appear without me having to install any user scripts?

Achievments popup, using minus signs

Some have voiced the argument that screen readers may be unable to read minus signs correctly. I don’t find it particularly persuasive. If there are still any screen readers that are unable to recognise a real minus sign for what it is, they are broken and should be fixed instead of appeased, thereby perpetuating the vicious cycle of incompatibility (no author uses this, therefore no reader software supports this for lack of popularity, therefore no author uses this for fear of incompatibility, therefore…). In fact, it should be easier for screen readers to read a minus sign code point correctly, because its meaning is unambiguous; the reader software can avoid applying fallible heuristics to guess whether the - character was meant as a hyphen, minus, or a dash. The speech synthesiser in my crappy 10-year-old Samsung phone that runs out of memory on a regular basis reads minus signs just fine. Are there really that many that can’t read them at all?

-12

No. A hyphen can be encoded in ASCII and therefore represents the optimal for compatibility. The idea that, "We have Unicode now," solves everything is absurd. Unicode certainly improves the situation for non-English character sets, but it far from solves it. See this for some evidence of just how complicated this all is.

Additionally, I don't see any real problems this would solve, even though I do see a potential for creating compatibility problems. How about accessibility; do you know how it affects that? As a developer, this seems like a step backwards. The existing hyphen works, it is sufficiently visually appealing, and it's simple.

I simply do not care about a purely graphical problem that has zero practical impact. It does not interfere with my, and I am fairly certain anyone's, ability to understand the content. This is pedantic in the extreme.

Please leave it alone.

14
  • 17
    I simply do not care whether it's encodable in ASCII or not.
    – Almo
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 21:05
  • 18
    Welcome to the 21st century! We support Unicode by now. And no, you don't even need Unicode. That's why HTML4 has &minus; to represent the − character.
    – fuz
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 21:10
  • @FUZxxl You clearly didn't read the link I gave you on the other answer.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 21:32
  • 6
    @Almo Except you should. A trivial graphical appearance issue is objectively better than a broken screen reader, or any other kind of broken code.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 21:33
  • 5
    It's not trivial really. It makes the site look more professional. Typography is very important.
    – Almo
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 21:34
  • 7
    @Almo Breaking people's ability to interact with the site is a heck of a lot less professional. If it took 5 years for someone to make an issue of it, then yes, it's trivial.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 21:35
  • 1
    FUZxxl already addressed the ASCII issue.
    – Almo
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 21:36
  • 2
    @Almo I'll repeat this since it was on another answer: "Now we have Uncidoe" Pfffffft. Unicode is a mess. Things are certainly better than they used to be for large character sets, but things are far from smoothed out. Try this, for instance. (His examples of things going wrong don't even render incorrectly, as the text indicates they should, in my browser.) Additionally, the adoption is nowhere near widespread; there's a ton of new code churned out every day with improper Unicode handling. (Heck, I bet both you and I are guilty of it.)
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 21:39
  • @jpmc26 You don't even need Unicode to support using the proper minus. That's why HTML4 has &minus;.
    – fuz
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 23:04
  • 4
    @jpmc26: Re "took five years" -- unfortunately, in a system as complex as SE, we find glitches that have been around for years all the time. Are all of these simply never worth fixing? How about old questions? Should we write those off as never worth closing if no one noticed them before now? Old answers that have a weird little typo, should those not be edited? Please drop that particular argument; it detracts from any point you might have. Commented Mar 3, 2016 at 5:09
  • 1
    @NathanTuggy I can be more explicit if you insist: This has been highly visible for 5 years, and no one complained. It is literally on every page that has a downvote. Clearly this means that it has no significant impact. Please don't misrepresent other people's arguments.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 3, 2016 at 23:53
  • 2
    @jpmc26: So, it wasn't noticed until it was noticed. That's kind of my point. The fact that it's apparently extremely subtle (but, once seen, cannot be unseen) is not much of an argument to avoid fixing it, but trying to argue on the basis of time is even less of one. Either it doesn't matter (in which case what is that 250+ score doing?) or it does; the amount of time it's been around before being noticed is a very, very poor proxy for importance. Commented Mar 4, 2016 at 0:02
  • 2
    @NathanTuggy Guess you'll be asking for alignment of zeros next, then. I'm sorry, but it's completely reasonable to ask someone to get over something this minor.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 4, 2016 at 0:03
  • 3
    @jpmc26: Sure, why not. If it makes things look better, it makes them better. There's no such thing as an edit that's too minor. Commented Mar 4, 2016 at 0:08
-13

I respectfully disagree that the typographer's minus sign should be used in place of the programmer's hyphen. My reason: this is a community for programmers, not typographers. The computer languages in daily use all use hyphens to indicate negation.

To switch to another codepoint for this purpose would be favoring styling at the expense of semantics.

12
  • 32
    Semantically, the minus sign, not the hyphen is correct.
    – fuz
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 23:26
  • 9
    SO does care about "pure styling": this answer tells me all text on the site is kerned. It's a purely typographical decision to do (or don't do) this; I know of no programming language where kerning is important.
    – Jongware
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 23:32
  • 5
    My point is this: for programmers and the languages we use, negation is indicated by the ASCII hyphen code point, not the Unicode minus code point. It would be a disaster if the questions and answers on SO had the hyphens changed to minus signs for the sake of styling. (I know you're not suggesting that.)
    – O. Jones
    Commented Mar 1, 2016 at 23:36
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    @OllieJones If I'm not suggesting that, why are you even raising this point? Sounds like a strawman to me.
    – fuz
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 0:15
  • @RadLexus no, that screenshot shows that they just stick to the default kerning. The faded out properties (everything except family, size, and weight for that particular element) are all inherited from the browser Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 0:37
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    The argument doesn't hold water. If we wanted SO to be slavishly faithful to what programmers write when we're coding, then all the questions and answers should be displayed in Courier or some other fixed-pitch font. After all, that's what I see in my IDE. Personally, I'm glad that SO opts for more readable than my IDE, and I think OP's suggestion would be an improvement (albeit by only a tiny bit).
    – Ted Hopp
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 1:16
  • @OllieJones: Oh, you mean the way quotes in titles are changed to curly quotes? That would indeed be unfortunate, but so far we've muddled through without any worse auto-obfuscation. Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 1:25
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    I mentioned this in a comment on another answer, but it applies equally well to yours, more so since it's your entire answer - this change could well apply network wide, not just here on Stack Overflow - ie there are others than just programmers who would see it/be affected. Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 8:40
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    Everything in proper typography is to smooth the experience of reading and taking in information. This site is all about making information easier to get.
    – Almo
    Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 21:05
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    @OllieJones I agree with you, but mostly in the sense that the whole argument is absolutely absurd. The minus sign does not appear on the keyboard, even on the right number pad because the hyphen is used interchangeably as a minus sign. It is possible that many programming languages would not accept a "minus sign", but the main absurdity is that apart from screen readers and encoding errors, there is no significance to the underlying bytes that are used to encode a particular symbol. It is literally just a line of chosen width. The only valid question then is the desired length of the symbol. Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 21:44
  • Additionally, it only has significance of alignment when a + sign is used above it. In other places, a dash may be better for alignment. Commented Mar 2, 2016 at 21:53
  • We are programmers and we type, so we also need to be typographers. We came here to read AND to lead, so we have to be correct professionally, not politically. Commented Aug 22, 2016 at 5:29
-17

This is pedantic. It doesn't even work.

You get misalignment when the number of digits don't match:

+9 and -18 don't line up

Or when only one of the up/down vote counts is zero, which has no sign:

zero doesn't line up with +1

Are you going to insist these line up, too? Changing the sign doesn't help them. I'm afraid you're simply going to have to deal with some misalignment, no matter what changes are made. Even if we "align" the above, how would we do it? Right align? Left align? Whether either of those is better than center aligned is a matter of complete opinion.

Just leave it alone. The risk of breaking things like accessibility outweighs any small satisfaction you might receive from them lining up. Don't be this guy or these guys.

(I'm posting this as a new answer because I believe the content differs significantly enough from my other answer that people might vote differently on it.)

5
  • 8
    Note that it was another answer that brought up the advantages of alignment; the question does not mention it. (I support aligning too, but let's keep things organized, eh?) Commented Mar 4, 2016 at 0:14
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    @NathanTuggy In a sense, you're correct. However, it points out a glaring problem with the request itself: there is no analysis of benefits or downsides in the question at all. So we're left to make our own guesses. I can only assume "typographically correct" means they believe it to be more visually appealing, and the only reason I can think of for that is alignment (which is the only notable difference in the example images). If you have some other benefit to argue for (whether in the question itself or not), please let me know.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 4, 2016 at 3:53
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    @jpmc26: "typographically correct" is a reason on itself; much like editing a post to be "grammatically correct" is a reason on itself and does not need any further defending.
    – Jongware
    Commented Mar 4, 2016 at 9:43
  • 3
    @RadLexus I am not aware of any accepted standard definition of "typographically correct." Could you point to one, and preferably to the section that states the hypen-minus Unicode character is somehow an invalid choice for a numeric negative sign? Language, including grammar, symbols, mechanics, and anything else is purely conventions and evolves over time. The "wrongness" of this symbol is completely unestablished, as far as I know.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 4, 2016 at 19:05
  • If alignment is an issue, then we'll also have to start thinking in using monospaced typefaces when using numbers and also add leading blank spaces to have the best perspective of statistical data, plus to issues regarding long numbers. Commented Aug 22, 2016 at 21:13

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