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In part because of the recent controversy about downvoting questions for Roomba, @Shog9, myself, and others had a long conversation attempting to address the real problem: what are the goals of tag burnination?

The main reason to get rid of a tag is to prevent users from asking questions about that topic, because the tag lends itself to asking bad questions (really broad tags -> too broad, off topic tags -> off topic), etc.

Therefore, I propose that we make it easier to lock bad tags down from having new questions added (both by "Ask Question" and by "Edit"), once the community has approved the cleanup of the tag on Meta Stack Overflow. This will:

  1. Solve the problem of bad tags leading to misuse of the site
  2. Make it unnecessary to use downvotes to clean up crappy questions, because higher reputation users will not need to completely burn tags quite so quickly.

Then, once cleanup in a tag has been achieved (good questions edited / retagged), we can simply flag for moderator attention to finish off the process.

I don't yet have a specific proposal for the details of how this might occur, not knowing exactly what powers are available to CMs already and not knowing how much of a code change this might be, but I wanted to get the ball rolling discussing this topic.

I am also looking for input on whether this "tag locking down" should ultimately terminate in a blacklisted tag in the traditional sense, or whether the tag should be unlocked once the burnination is complete. Personally, I think that if a tag gets burninated with moderator / staff involvement, then there's no reason for it not to be blacklisted then and there. But, perhaps there are reasons I am not aware of.

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    Related, I posted the question yesterday about bad tags in suggested edits. The tag was deleted, but within the following hours resurfaced in a new question and again in 3 approved edits. Therefore, I would extend your suggestion to include locking bad tags from use on any question.
    – OhBeWise
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 21:32
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    @OhBeWise I meant that, but I've clarified the language.
    – durron597
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 21:47
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    It is just an all-around dumb way to go about it. Honey-pots are good, users can add them to their ignored tags list in their profile if they chose to ignore them. When SO users don't get answers they'll automatically stop asking. When you destroy tags or "lock them down" then you force random tagging choices and nobody can filter those. Filtering is important when questions arrive at a rate of one every 6 seconds. Just stop messing with something that already works fine. Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 22:21
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    @HansPassant: Can you link to an in-depth discussion of the tradeoff between honeypot cleanup efficiency gains and broken-window volume losses? Your assertion that honeypot tags are good is not one that is at all universal, and I think it needs some serious backing. Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 1:26
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    @HansPassant "when SO users don't get answers they'll automatically stop asking" from what I've seen this is not true at all. They'll often just ask again or in a different place, like in chat.
    – TylerH
    Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 14:14
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    Over and over again, our observation has been that the best way to get folks to leave is to give them no feedback at all, @TylerH. As long as they think someone is listening, they'll keep asking.
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 16:11

2 Answers 2

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There are two big concerns that need to be addressed here, IMHO:

  1. Folks propose a lot of really terrible burninate requests. "I don't know what this word means, you should burn it" type of stuff. Those need to get weeded out. Also, Hans and Ian both mention the problem of folks wanting to burn tags that seem to attract bad questions... Sorry, but burning isn't gonna help; folks don't set out to write good questions and then change their mind when they find a bad tag; you're still gonna get bad questions after you remove (or lock) the tag, they're just gonna be scattered around among other tags.

  2. Folks who actually use the tags being burned are often unaware that they're being discussed (or even removed). Combined with #1, that's led to some pretty embarrassing situations, and kinda soured me on burnination in general.

That said, there is a place for careful review and cleanup that can lead to complete removal of a tag, and "locking" or blocking it. We just need to be a bit more methodical about it. Due to the size of Stack Overflow and Meta Stack Overflow, the normal process of discussion and debate is falling over; folks are taking rather tepid receptions as license to start wrecking havoc and using and abusing all the tools at their disposal even when the results are pointless or even negative.

So here's what I'd like to try for burnination:

  1. When a is posted, it will be marked until/unless it scores at least 20. If it never achieves this score, then it should not be acted on; don't interpret apathy as a sign of support.

  2. After reaching the threshold score, the request will be for one day, exposing it to as much attention on Stack Overflow as possible. This will be a chance for folks to show their support and a chance for folks who thought it was too silly to be worth talking about to step up and explain why the request should be denied.

  3. After its day in the spotlight, a moderator, myself, or someone else on the Community Team will review the request and any arguments against it. There are four criteria for burnination - if the tag doesn't meet any of them, or if it is clear that removing it will do more harm than good... The request will be declined. I'd have preferred to run this process purely on voting, but... That would inevitably lead to trouble. Your distaste for a frustrating game shouldn't result in the destruction of otherwise-valid tags.

  4. If the tag can be cleanly removed at this point, I'll skip directly to step #6. If it requires further disambiguation, the request will be tagged signalling that it is time for widespread review and revision of the questions in the tag. This is the time to clean up the edges. During this time, use of the tag will be blocked with a message that links back to the request meta post.

  5. When Step #4 is completed, whoever is spearheading this request will flag it for moderator attention and I'll proceed to step #6.

  6. I'll delete any closed, downvoted questions in the tag and remove it from the system entirely. This assumes the tag wasn't already removed during review in Step #4.

Note that Step #4 is by far the most labor-intensive and time-consuming part of this, particularly for ambiguous tags. Hence the three steps preceding it, which I hope will weed out a lot of the pointless requests that get made.

If we decide to proceed with this plan, it'll need to be accepted and communicated; we can't have one group of people manually removing any tag that gets +5 on meta while another group patiently waits on their +15 request. In theory, this could be mostly automated, with the manual bits handled by moderators - but its success hinges on the willingness of folks here on meta to actually abide by the timeline laid out above. If that doesn't happen, this is all just another waste of time.

In closing, it's worth noting that none of this particularly matters for tags that only have a tiny handful of questions in them; if one person can knock out a tag in a few minutes, then a huge heavy process surrounding it is completely unnecessary... You don't really even need to bring it up on meta. But you should still use good judgement, even for small tags. If the tag isn't actively causing harm, leave it be.

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    And are you OK if step 4 is coordinated from a chat room?
    – rene
    Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 16:14
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    If you link to the chat room from the request, and don't start #4 until the first three steps are completed... That shouldn't be a problem.
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 16:15
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    Are you okay if advertising step 1 is coordinated from a chat room?
    – durron597
    Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 16:22
  • What do you mean, "advertising step 1"?
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 16:23
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    Going into a chatroom saying "hey friends, please upvote my burnination request". (Note: I am expecting you to say "no")
    – durron597
    Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 16:24
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    If yes, then going into a chatroom with a [to-zero] request for downvoting the burninate request to 0 should also be valid. Where does it end? Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 16:30
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    @InfiniteRecursion I agree, that's why I was asking for clarification :) P.S. Your username is extremely appropriate for this point, ha.
    – durron597
    Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 16:32
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    Want to start with code-smell? It's got 20 votes at the moment
    – durron597
    Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 17:03
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    This is why Step #3 has to exist, @durron597: if I review the request and there's no rationale, no good criteria for removal, just "I don't like the sound of this"... I'm gonna just assume that it's your buddies upvoting it and decline anyway. If you're gonna motivate folks to support it, do it with your arguments first - what you do after that matters less.
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 17:04
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    I think we need to establish one very important difference between "removal-in-progress" and "blacklisted" tags. "removal-in-progress" should prevent adding that tag to any new questions, but should not prevent other edits to a question carrying the tag, which leave the tag in place
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Oct 1, 2015 at 20:49
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    Still thinking about this, @Deduplicator, considering some of the suggestions here... Even as a trial run, gotta figure this is gonna take until the end of the year to complete if we start this week.
    – Shog9
    Commented Oct 5, 2015 at 18:57
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    @Shog9 I had for the time being added a tag we-wait-for-shog9 to the SOCVR room tags but I rather go forward now. Can we make this work with some of the moderators that visit our room?
    – rene
    Commented Jan 22, 2016 at 19:28
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    Nice to see this in action. While I fully agree with the plan, how do we make this official? Any links from the FAQ to here or so?
    – Bergi
    Commented Feb 10, 2016 at 0:07
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    Blacklisting is rarely necessary, @ivan_pozdeev; recreating a tag requires 1500 reputation now, which dramatically limits the number of askers who can create them. On occasions where it is necessary, a separate request can be made for that.
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 22, 2016 at 5:08
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    @Dukeling, you get a tag warning pop up when you post a burninate-request.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 20:35
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I don’t agree with getting rid of a tag due to the tag containing lots of bad questions, these bad questions will still be asked, just without the given tag. As Hans Passant says:

Honey-pots are good, users can add them to their ignored tags list in their profile if they chose to ignore them.

However there are times where a tag is used for more than one concept where it is best to force the use of more explicit tags – but the unclear tag cannot yet be removed as there are lots of questions on it. In that case, it would be good if the unclear tag could be marked as “don’t use” with a message that explains the tags that should be used instead.

So I agree with the feature request, but not with the reason for having it.

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