59

Maybe I'm missing something, but I feel like the first comment on this question should be 'what have you tried?'. I can only assume that the asker is perfectly capable of coming up with various ways of doing what they're asking, AND benchmarking to see which is faster, and can see which one is simpler. Why did no one ask that and instead just started answering? Is there an assumption that someone with that rep level has tried things already without actually showing what they've tried? Or is it because the question is about the simplest way instead of just a way?

note: I had thought it was a dupe and have since removed my comment, because it wasn't. I don't want to ask 'what have you tried' myself because it's already got several good answers.

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  • 11
    Why didn't you post such a comment, if you felt one was warranted?
    – Servy
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 19:22
  • 40
    They are as much expected having been done their homework, and show their research efforts, as anyone else. Commented May 1, 2015 at 19:23
  • 16
    It's also worth noting that lots and lots of easy questions that the author is clearly capable of solving on their own easily get upvotes. People like upvoting and answer easier questions. It's easier than spending a lot of time on harder questions.
    – Servy
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 19:24
  • 1
    @πάνταῥεῖ Which is to say, not very much at all.
    – Servy
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 19:24
  • 5
    well, like I said in my note, it's already got several good answers, so it's kind of a moot point now. Also, TBH, I do feel a little intimidated putting something like that on someone's post who's obviously capable of doing it. I probably should have.
    – DrewJordan
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 19:25
  • 9
    rep < 50k high !!! ?? :D Commented May 2, 2015 at 5:24
  • 3
    "I can only assume that the asker is perfectly capable of coming up with various ways of doing what they're asking, AND benchmarking to see which is faster." If you're assuming that, you're reading something into the question that isn't there. He didn't ask anything about performance. Novices often do ask questions like "What's the most efficient way to X", without actually saying what they mean by "efficient" (time? space? programmer time?) or in what context (doing X a zillion times in one process, doing X once in a giant data set, doing X in a zillion different runs…), etc., but he didn't
    – abarnert
    Commented May 2, 2015 at 5:27
  • 8
    From my own personal experience: with 2-digit rep I asked a borderline-acceptable question and got the most upvotes I've ever had, and with 6-digit rep I asked two perfectly good questions that got a total of +0, so… that probably just proves that my sample size is too small to mean anything.
    – abarnert
    Commented May 2, 2015 at 5:43
  • 3
    FWIW it was bumped into hot network list - currently at #4 over there (this often happens to questions that quickly get many answers). So, the positive score is to a large extent a result of the snowball effect. Related: Is the quality of 'Hot Network Questions' a concern to others?
    – gnat
    Commented May 2, 2015 at 10:21
  • 2
    14.5k over 5 years is not "high rep" Commented May 3, 2015 at 0:02
  • 4
    There was such a comment. I flagged it because it was not constructive. If you don't feel like answering simple questions then just walk away.
    – usr
    Commented May 3, 2015 at 14:21
  • @usr I didn't realize that there was one, or that it was already deemed not constructive. Can I ask, is the reason it wasn't constructive because the ask was for the 'simplest' way?
    – DrewJordan
    Commented May 4, 2015 at 12:54
  • @usr, I wish more people felt that way. "Walk away" is the most sensible and frictionless solution to such a problem. Many problems.
    – user4229245
    Commented May 4, 2015 at 13:05
  • 1
    @msw that question wasn't bad. Well asked and well defined problem. Let a newbie answer it, he'll have fun doing so. I'm all for destroying bad stuff but this wasn't.
    – usr
    Commented May 4, 2015 at 14:43
  • 3
    @tgm1024 I don't think it's a bad question, but it seemed at odds with how I thought it would have been handled, so I asked. It's clear to me that I confused a 'give me the code' question with 'what is the simplest way', and I will adjust my future self accordingly. I needed to ask here to get feedback as I obviously didn't come to that conclusion myself. I'm sorry if the way I asked sounded otherwise.
    – DrewJordan
    Commented May 4, 2015 at 16:56

9 Answers 9

80

Having higher rep does not exclude you from the rules that everyone else has to follow.

Also note that showing research or what you have tried is not required. Not including it may however result in downvotes.

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  • 18
    This is, I think, the reason that the question bothered me so much. It had a bunch of upvotes but I felt like the same question from a totally new user would have been treated differently, but you're right: it's not a requirement, and I was treating it as one. I guess I just didn't like the way the community treated the question but, that's my opinion, and that's why there's a community. Thanks!
    – DrewJordan
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 19:33
  • 2
    It has 4 downvotes, so it certainly did receive negative votes, it's just that the positive votes outweighed them.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 19:33
  • @KevinB And a lot more upvotes.
    – Servy
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 19:33
  • 2
    I also don't doubt that some people upvoted it just because of the rep of the person, people vote for weird reasons. But it also just may be an interesting question (boring to me, i don't know C#)
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 19:35
  • I can't see the downvotes, is it a rep privilege to see them instead of just the sum total? Anyhow, I more had a problem with how the community treated it than the question itself. Just wondering if there was a precedent to allow 'proven' users some extra leeway or treat them the same as a day one user.
    – DrewJordan
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 19:39
  • 5
    Yes, at 1000 rep you can view vote counts by clicking on the vote total. You're almost there!
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 19:40
  • @KevinB TIL. Thank you haha. Now I am going back through so many posts. Commented May 1, 2015 at 20:28
41

If that were a low rep user, the results would have likely been the same.

Research itself is not the important part. The important part is the usual results of that research:

  • The question is clear.
  • The question is answerable.
  • The question is not a duplicate.
  • The question is the OP's actual question.

If your question is a good question, than a bunch of extra exposition about how your research went actually bogs the question down.


When it comes down to it, The question that you linked to was very easy to understand and very simple. As long as they seem somewhat unique, simple and easy to understand questions are always well received.

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  • 2
    I disagree, at least from my own experience. The last question I asked: stackoverflow.com/questions/29707036/… I was told that it should take less than 5 minutes to check, and that I should read the documentation first. So either I need help on how to properly ask questions (which I would welcome) or, I caught people on an off day, OR the research before asking a question is considered important. The comments on my question led me to believe the latter.
    – DrewJordan
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 22:05
  • 2
    @DrewJordan does "why don't you check" and "why don't you read the documentation" apply to the question that you've linked? Commented May 1, 2015 at 22:09
  • @DrewJordan The thought process of those commenters is probably something along the lines of "If I wanted to get an answer to this question, I'd just make myself a winforms project and set it up and check. But I don't feel like doing that right now, so I'll tell the OP to do it." Commented May 1, 2015 at 22:12
  • They both do apply, and I was glad that someone pointed me to referencesource.microsoft.com which I had never been to before, but have since used almost daily. Was that a rhetorical question? Yeah, that was how I felt too. And really, it hadn't occurred to me to check the docs, since I'm just so used to coming here to search for answers :) That's what led me to ask here, to understand what I should do in response to questions that can be answered like that. Should I always tell people to try researching it themselves? Or should I simply post an answer as long as it's not a dupe?
    – DrewJordan
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 22:16
  • 1
    @DrewJordan I meant do they apply to the question that you linked in the OP Commented May 1, 2015 at 22:17
  • Ah.Right. I would think that with the 'Operators' section from the Microsoft docs: msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/2cf62fcy.aspx and a reasonable amount of experience, one would be able to come up with several ways to compare them, so yes, they do apply to that question.
    – DrewJordan
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 22:22
  • 6
    @DrewJordan: Your question is almost guaranteed to have a clear answer in the docs; even someone who knows nothing about C# and WinForms can tell that. This question clearly doesn't (well, if C# had something official like the "programming recommendations" section of PEP 8 for Python it might… but even then, not likely); it requires someone who knows the language and its idioms pretty well and can synthesize information. So they're not at all parallel.
    – abarnert
    Commented May 2, 2015 at 5:32
  • I would exclude from that list "the question is not a duplicate". In my neck of the woods (XML/XSLT) many duplicates arise because unless you've come across the problem before, you would never know what to search for that would lead you to realise others have encountered the same problem. Asking a duplicate question does not always indicate lack of research. Commented Jul 12, 2018 at 23:19
  • @MichaelKay this answer is intended to apply to more than just the one question in the OP. Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:11
24

A question that looks trivial isn't always trivial. And given a question that looks trivial from a user who ought to know better, people are liable to put a bit of effort into determining whether it really is. So, in that sense, the high-rep user gets off a little easier.

On the other hand, if it actually is a trivial question, people will judge a high-rep user more harshly—especially if they had to waste extra time convincing themselves it really was trivial—so they're probably more likely to downvote rather than just ignoring it and going away.

So, it works both ways.

There are other classes of "potentially bad, but I'm not sure" questions besides those that look trivial; I think the same probably applies there.

16

As the author of said question, I should say that I asked it simply, because I couldn't find a canonical answer on Stack Overflow to this problem. It's a genuine bit of code I needed, and whilst I could think of three or four ways to solve it, I wanted to leverage the community to see if there was perhaps a built-in method (such as Math.Max), or some trivial technique that would apply here that I didn't not know about.

It is a trivial problem in the scheme of things, but I don't believe that should prevent it from finding an answer here. I hope others will find the question useful in the future, should they encounter the same scenario and wonder "is there an easy way to do this?"

2
  • 2
    I thought that was the case: the difference is that you were asking for the simplest way instead of just "how do I do this?". And I agree, it's certainly a useful thing to have as an answer here. I have gotten used to seeing an immediate response to many questions (even about the easiest way to do something) be 'what have you tried' but it seems there is a consensus to give higher rep users the benefit of the doubt (at least initially), which was what this question was intended to find out. Thanks for letting me pick on your question ;)
    – DrewJordan
    Commented May 4, 2015 at 12:42
  • @Tragedian, I often find questions of the form "What's the simplest way?" to be educational at their root. There was nothing wrong with the question as is, and I enjoyed reading the answers, so thanks for asking it!
    – user4229245
    Commented May 4, 2015 at 13:12
12

Maybe I'm missing something, but I feel like the first comment on this question should be 'what have you tried?

Among other things, you're missing the fact that it is impossible to write such a comment. It is on the comment filter list because we are not supposed to say it… to anyone.

3
  • 1
    What's the comment filter list? And what are the 'other things'?
    – DrewJordan
    Commented May 4, 2015 at 12:30
  • 1
    @DrewJordan: It is the list of comment text patterns that are filtered out/blocked on SO (read this), such as comments beginning with "+1" or "-1", comments that read "What have you tried?", comments that contain a link to LMGTFY, comments that include the word "repwhore", ... The "other things" have been explained to you in the other answers. Commented May 4, 2015 at 19:35
  • Thanks! I actually had no idea that such a list existed, but after reading that I will make sure I don't ever just ask that again.
    – DrewJordan
    Commented May 4, 2015 at 20:45
6

To some degree, users will judge the asker on the quality of his prior contributions which does not always match rep points.

People feel a lot better about doing the legwork for another user, if they know that other user has (in their own area of expertise) poured in hundreds of hours of effort and is likely to continue doing so. It's the concept of "Passing along a good deed" that exists in many cultures.

If you spend, due to superior familiarity with the tools, 20 minutes to figure out something that would have taken a "help vampire" 2 hours, you're justifiably upset -- it is his need and he should have taken responsibility. This is even more true for high reputation vampires, who ought to know the drill by now.

If you spend that same 20 minutes to figure out something that helps an expert answerer, and in the 2 hours you saved him, he helps a dozen other people, then everyone wins.

So while experienced contributors absolutely are expected to write clear answerable questions, "doing the homework" becomes a matter of efficient allocation of resources.


Another possibility entirely is that the high-rep user asking an open-ended question (which really doesn't meet the quality guideline) is setting up a canonical Q&A. In that case check with them whether they've got an answer already prepared, and if not, go all out. Your answer is likely to become the ultimate destination of dozens of duplicate questions.

5

Having higher rep does not exclude you from the rules.

HOWEVER, it probably does - and should - afford you a bit more leeway. Not that you should be able to post a bad question with no repercussions, but a question that maybe is a little weak is likely to get in where a new user would get more constructive criticism. That's perfectly okay in my book: the new user needs the assistance in understanding how to get their question answered effectively, while an experienced user doesn't - they likely know, and either don't care about the additional clarity or are satisfied with it anyway.

In this particular case, if the question truly isn't a dupe, I have no problem with it exactly as it stands even from a new user; I'm not a very frequent C# user, but if that is a fairly common problem that is encountered, it's a good way to get that information in SO.

3
  • I agree with you, that we as non-elected moderators (and elected moderators) can and should use our own judgement on questions based on all of the factors available (rep included), but at the same time, broken rules shouldn't be bypassed solely due to rep, but instead based on all of the other factors as well. (of course, in this case there were no broken rules)
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 20:32
  • Thanks Joe. In this case, it's not a common a problem (the very first comment was "How is this not a duplicate more than 6 years after Stack Overflow launched?"). But I came to the same conclusion, that it's a good way to get the information onto the site.
    – DrewJordan
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 20:35
  • 6
    I disagree. I'm going to judge a high rep more harshly for posting a poor/lazy/incomplete question than I am a low rep. I expect them to know better.
    – cimmanon
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 22:28
4

Firstly, there is no such requirement, and therefore the premise of whether or not they are immune to the requirement is null. Code is certainly very helpful, and sometimes necessary to frame a question clearly. A question might fall into "not clear" if it lacks BOTH code and unambiguous description. It only needs one of those things, but often when in doubt, attempting to provide both a code attempt and an unambiguous description ensures you have successfully framed your question through at least one of those mechanisms.

The discussion of this requirement is covered in my meta question here: Is there really a universal code requirement?

Most responders agreed that there is no such requirement, but it is VERY STRONGLY encouraged. Answers lacking code will sometimes be unclear and be candidates for closing as a result of the lack of clarity. Lack of code in itself is not sufficient reason for closing.

In this case I think the description was clear and unambiguous enough that code was not needed. This is exemplified in the fact that the answers were all consistent in their behavior, despite taking different approaches.

If the user was unaware of the Nullable.Compare function, it would have been a reverse search problem that wouldn't have likely turned up that result.

So any other attempt to show code that accomplished the same without leveraging that function would have been obtuse, and ultimately would have been unnecessary fluff. The existing answers would have still applied, and would not have directly addressed the asker's attempt. If anything it would perhaps elicit some rude "you're doing it wrong" comments.

That said, I think they probably should have played it safe and included code that accomplished the same. We should never underestimate our ability to create ambiguous statements in human languages like English. Even if it was a couple of if/else's that accomplish the same behavior, then asked if there was a more elegant approach, that would have ensured everyone was understanding exactly what the asker's goal was.

It is a great question and is clearly framed and adds value to the community, which is exactly what SO is about. I don't see any reason to downvote it simply because it lacked a code attempt, because that fact doesn't diminish the value of the question or the fact that it was clearly framed.

2

If the question is for me easy to understand, and I can just answer it without any research myself, I just answer it. Much easier than to play the teacher. And please keep in mind... Answers are not only for the asker. She might not have done her homework. Bad. But to find this question and find the answer might be the result of someone else doing his homework. Good.

Lectures how to ask questions may help only one. Concrete answers potentially many.

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