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I realize that this is specifically addressed in "What is "meta"? How does it work?":

Voting is different on meta.

Like normal Stack Exchange sites, Meta allows members to vote on questions and answers. For most posts, votes reflect the perceived usefulness: well-written, well-reasoned, well-researched posts tend to get more attention and more upvotes. Highly-voted and frequently-linked posts may become part of the community-curated FAQ or codified as part of the site’s Help pages.

Unlike normal Stack Exchange sites, Meta invites the community to discuss, debate and propose changes to the way the community itself behaves, as well as how the software itself works. On posts tagged feature-request, voting indicates agreement or disagreement with the proposed change rather than just the quality or usefulness of the post itself.

Downvotes on feature requests are supposed to represent disagreement. Yet I consistently feel like downvotes are also used to express disagreement on non-feature-request questions (and the answers on those questions). I myself have used downvotes this way, though I don't remember off-the-top of my head on which questions/answers.

So how are users supposed to use downvotes on Meta really? I feel like it's kind of ambiguous and vague right now. Are the downvotes that I get on non-feature-request questions because the quality of the questions are poor, or because people disagree with the questions?

I feel like lumping together both the expression of agreement/disagreement and the expression of good-quality/bad-quality into the same voting system is very confusing to users (like me).

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  • 2
    You've got a yay or nay vote, as basic as democracy gets. If that feels too constrictive then do the other thing that's important in a democracy, state your opinion and post a comment or answer. Commented May 9, 2014 at 0:15
  • 15
    I don't know how they SHOULD vote but I know how they DO vote. It's basically Lord of the Flies.
    – dilbert
    Commented May 9, 2014 at 0:16
  • Why does it matter? From your link: "Votes on meta do not affect your reputation; your meta reputation is the same as your reputation on Stack Overflow (synchronized hourly), though you earn separate badges. You must have 5 reputation to participate on meta." Commented May 9, 2014 at 0:33
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    @MatthewLundberg part of the implicit mission of Stack Overflow is to help people become better writers. If I'm getting downvotes because my posts genuinely suck in terms of quality, and not necessarily because people just disagree with them, then I want to know that so that I can improve :/
    – user456814
    Commented May 9, 2014 at 0:35
  • 16
    You should always assume that folks are downvoting you because you're failed to do a good job of communicating, @Cupcake. Unless you're me - then you should assume that they're poor lost souls in desperate need of correction.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 9, 2014 at 0:37
  • 3
    @Shog9 I'm sorry, but that is just extremely confusing, and I don't find it helpful at all. I don't mean the comment itself, I mean the idea that I should always just assume that I'm being downvoted because I failed to communicate an idea well enough. On Stack Overflow it makes sense, but here on Meta, because the downvotes are also used for disagreement on just about any question, I just find it very confusing.
    – user456814
    Commented May 9, 2014 at 0:38
  • 4
    Why? I've found folks on Meta to be extremely willing to let you know if they have some other reason for downvoting.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 9, 2014 at 0:40
  • 3
    I downvote your posts if I find slightly questionable grammar anywhere because I know that's how you like it.
    – Wooble
    Commented May 9, 2014 at 2:02
  • @Wooble funny :P
    – user456814
    Commented May 9, 2014 at 2:11
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    @Shog9 I just wanted to point out that Reddit has different guidelines for voting. It's in the context of comments, but I think it could apply to any answer or question, whether it's expressed in a comment or not: reddiquette states that downvotes should be used for irrelevant comments, not ideas you disagree with. Also, don't be afraid to upvote a comment you disagree with if you think it is furthering the discussion. This will result in the most interesting and relevant discussions moving to the top of the comment page.
    – user456814
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 18:25
  • 1
    @Shog9 and also this statement from reddiquette: Moderate based on quality, not opinion. Well written and interesting content can be worthwhile, even if you disagree with it. I'm not saying that Meta should adopt Reddit-style guidelines, I just want to point out that some people handle voting differently.
    – user456814
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 18:26
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    That's because Reddit's goal is to surface interesting discussions, not necessarily useful posts. I don't spend much time on Reddit, but from what I've seen that guidance is routinely ignored anyway. Also, IIRC downvotes "hurt" a lot more on Reddit than they do on SE - they're closer to our flags than our votes.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 18:31
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    You could draw a 2 by 2 grid, with one axis representing true/false for "is this a well-communicated question?" and the other representing "do I agree with it?", and all four quadrants would be perfectly valid combinations of statements. It's absolutely confusing having those two completely orthogonal questions conflated into one number. For a site so obsessed with signal and noise, it's hard to think of a starker example of signal being unrecoverably lost. Commented May 14, 2014 at 12:39
  • 1
    @BenAaronson I said as much here: "I dislike using a single vote to represent both (dis)agreement with the content of my message, as well as my ability to express/convey/deliver that message clearly and articulately. I would have preferred to keep two separate metrics for posts, one for (dis)agreement, and the other for post quality. Though I know that Stack Exchange would probably never implement that kind of a system, or at least it's very unlikely."
    – user456814
    Commented May 14, 2014 at 17:40
  • @Cupcake Well two separate metrics is, as you say, unlikely to ever happen. For now I'd settle for clear, official guidance as to what the votes are supposed to represent. As people are saying, you can't guarantee that nobody will use votes for whatever reason they so choose, but that doesn't seem like a good reason not to have an official stance. I don't see why it should generally be any less clear for metas than for main sites. Commented May 14, 2014 at 17:44

3 Answers 3

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Folks use downvotes here pretty much the same way they do everywhere else... What's different are the questions.

The reason we call out votes on feature-requests as being "special" here is simply that even a well-written, well-researched request may catch some flack for proposing a feature that folks simply don't want. In that regard, voting is special because the posts themselves are special.

For everything else, folks still vote based on their perception of the quality or usefulness of the post, on whether or not they think the advice given in it is a good idea, on their perception of the tone and attitude of the author, and on whether or not they're currently enjoying a big frosty glass of pickle juice.

See also:

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    Pickle juice? Ewwwwww. I won't downvote you for your taste in beverages, even though I disagree with it :P
    – user456814
    Commented May 9, 2014 at 0:33
  • 6
    Thanks for the links! I jumped down the deep rabbit hole and followed the breadcrumb trail across the vast, alien plains of Meta Stack Exchange, discovering many posts about voting in Meta and its history along the way. The two I found particularly helpful to understand how voting is actually used (and how it should be used) are this one and the last one that you linked to. The last one is especially helpful. Why not include it with the Meta FAQ, or at least link to it?
    – user456814
    Commented May 10, 2014 at 8:30
  • "on their perception of the tone and attitude of the author" - This should be flagged instead of downvoted, is a missuse of the voting feature, when you have options as editing/flagging etc in a question that other than that CAN be a good question. If you don't like the author avoid it's work in the platform or report if he is breaking the rules.
    – S. Dre
    Commented Mar 11, 2022 at 11:38
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Are the downvotes that I get on non-feature-request questions because the quality of the questions are poor, or because people disagree with the questions?

You're asking for a summary of people's feelings about questions.... I hate talking about feelings.

Personally the quality of a question won't save it from a down vote from me.

Meta does attract some vague or amorphous questions, or questions on things where it just doesn't matter. If I see a question and my response is what??? or who cares? or how could that ever matter? then I'm inclined to down vote. It's not personal, it's simply a response to someone asking an open ended question where the answer(s) will have no perceptible result on anything.

Yet I consistently feel like downvotes are also used to express disagreement on non-feature-request questions

I think you are absolutely correct. But what is wrong with that? Disagreement can be as simple as "I disagree with you", we shouldn't actually have to write that as an answer when a down vote says it just as well.

In summary, it looks like you are suggesting that the FAQ needs a slight re-wording because it still contains some ambiguity. Do you want to suggest a change, or are you still exploring whether that change is necessary? I can live with it in its current state.

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    If what you say is true, then the FAQ absolutely needs to be updated to be less ambiguous and more clear on how votes are actually used. For example, I often upvote good (non-feature-request) questions on Meta, even if I might disagree with them, because I think the question is high-quality and useful.
    – user456814
    Commented May 9, 2014 at 0:31
  • @Cupcake Slugster is stating how he votes. Not how everys single meta user votes.
    – Servy
    Commented May 13, 2014 at 20:18
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    @Servy honestly, I don't like how both evaluating ideas and evaluating the delivery of those ideas are both bundled together into one vote. I find it to be very confusing...but that's just me. Shog's already talked a little about why voting works the way it does here.
    – user456814
    Commented May 13, 2014 at 20:22
  • If we cannot agree in how voting should be used then why do we even have such feature and why does it have such a pivotal position in the platform?
    – S. Dre
    Commented Mar 11, 2022 at 11:40
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I find talking on meta to be difficult as I take the downvotes rather personally (a character flaw). The worst part is trying to infer why, when there is no constructive criticism; my entire career is about taking feedback and improving the solution! that kind of workflow simply won't cut it here; you get it right the first time or down you go...

That said, I think it is good to appreciate that sometimes, at first glance, it doesn't make perfect sense. An example:

Here is a question that has been given 15 down-votes. My interpretation: "people think this is a bad question"

Here is an answer to that very same question, which has been given 11 up-votes, which states

Never answer bad questions.

Does that mean the question this person answered, with the advice "never answer bad questions", isn't a bad question? It seems that way after 11 people voted in the affirmative. So if a downvote doesn't mean "this is a bad question" then perhaps (at least in this case) the negative votes mean "I don't agree with you"? or "You said something I don't like"? I don't know.

But I think you are right; up and down votes are lumping together many motives and quite honestly I think at present it puts people off.

It would be nice to be able to have finer granularity in the voting system, where people can disagree with the original question without inferring it was wrong for that person to ask it in the first place...

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