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Recently I noticed a tag being burninated where I was one of the top users. This came as a surprise to me since I didn't notice the discussion about burninating the tag before the process had started.

Perhaps we should inform / message the top 5 / 10 users of the tag so that they are aware about the discussion? This would be useful since as top users they might have insights on the relevance of the tag to the site and whether it should stay or not.

I posted this question following discussion here (where a mod asked me to do it):
The [price] tag is being burninated

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    Relevant discussion leading to this post
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 24 at 8:40
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    I've tried to reframe the question more as a suggestion since you seemed to be open to edits. Feel free to rollback if it conflicts with your intent. Commented May 24 at 9:14
  • @AbdulAzizBarkat Yes I am open to edits and improvements, as I am not used to Meta... Commented May 24 at 9:37
  • Can you explain how you use that specific tag to find posts you want to answer? Are you one of the watchers of that tag?
    – rene
    Commented May 24 at 9:56
  • @rene Yes, I was a watcher of that tag (and a top user), and I used it like other tags to find related posts… Commented May 24 at 9:59
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    So you would check any question tagged price to provide an answer ? No matter if it is in haskell or Go or Excel?
    – rene
    Commented May 24 at 10:04
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    So searching for [woocommerce] price is:q answers:0 closed:0 should achieve what you need. What does the price tag add for you what that search or filter couldn't?
    – rene
    Commented May 24 at 10:10
  • @rene So this can be applied to multiple existing tags that are in some way sub tags… So in this case we should burninate a bunch of existing tags... Commented May 24 at 10:16
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    That would imply you are [woocommerce] watcher, not a [price] watcher, since in no way price is uniquely tied with WooCommerce (nor I can immediately think about a specific programming area related to "prices" in general; but that's different discussion probably for the other question)
    – yivi
    Commented May 24 at 10:17
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    @LoicTheAztec no, that is not true. I'm a big advocate to keep tags that seem useless to others, specially because those tags might help filter out questions that followers of their main tag don't want or can't answer. I'm less sympathetic to keep those tags for everyone when their goal is to "include" questions.
    – rene
    Commented May 24 at 10:25

4 Answers 4

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Notifying the tag's top users is a good idea.

The goal of the burnination process is, after all, to get the system to have tags that are useful to users to categorize questions in ways that allow people to group questions into areas of interest, so the questions can be more easily found, while not having tags which detract from that purpose or which encourage off-topic questions. It makes a lot of sense to make sure that the users who are most involved in the tag, both all time and in the last 30 days, are at least aware of the discussion about the tag in which they have participated. Overall, we want the users who are highly engaged in the tag to participate in the discussion. Featuring a question on Meta Stack Overflow is a good way to get general attention from users, but it's certainly not guaranteed to contact the users most invested in the tag. Proactively informing them is a good idea.

In my opinion, it would probably be a good idea for such a notification to happen both when such a question is created on Meta Stack Overflow and judged to have at least some validity, and when the action requested in the Meta Stack Overflow question moves to the featured stage.

A moderator could do this by SuperPinging™ the top users in a chat room created for that purpose.

While performing such a notification of the top users is, currently, considerable work, it would be reasonably easy to create a userscript a moderator can run that notifies all of top N users in the tag. The notification could be done by:

  1. Create a chat room

  2. Post a message saying something like:

    The [tag] is under discussion on Meta Stack Overflow in [question]. Any discussion about the disposition of the should be on that question, and that the top users in the tag are being notified of the discussion by being pinged in that chat room.

  3. Pin the above message.

  4. The moderator then SuperPings™ each of the top N users, which will notify the user even if they have not previously participated in chat. That message could be something like:

    @@[userID] Discuss [tag:<tag name>] tag: https://meta.stackoverflow.com/q/422645 potential changes or removal.

    While that's a bit terse, it has the basics and shows completely, including the URL, in the user's inbox.

  5. The moderator then freezes the chat room, which will keep the discussion about the tag on the Meta Stack Overflow question, not in the chat room.

  6. The system will then delete the chat room 7 days later, due to having messages from only one user and the most recent message being 7 days old.

A userscript could be created that performs all of the above steps with a single click. Admittedly, such a userscript would take several seconds to run, due to rate limiting in chat, but it could be made to be quite easy to perform the task.

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  • We probably should also have a criteria to limit the top N users that get pinged. For example the user should have a score of atleast X in the tag, and their last seen should not be more than a month ago (So that only active users get pinged) Commented May 25 at 17:52
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    Limiting the users pinged based on their last activity would make the process more complicated. It's also not clear to me where a dividing line should be placed with respect to a user being active or not, nor that an "inactive" user wouldn't want to get a ping. Generally, I feel that it's better to ping the user, rather than not. If the user doesn't want to know, they can easily ignore the ping and/or the email a ping might have produced and/or set their system preferences not to send them email. At least on first glance, I'd prefer not to limit pings based on the user's last activity.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 25 at 18:03
  • The intent behind the wording I used for each user's SuperPing™ message was so the notified user could see the contents of the inbox message or email (I still need to actually verify the email contents) and easily make a choice about their interest based solely on the contents of that notification and have enough information in that notification/email to go to the MSO discussion without having to bounce through the chat system, should they not want to.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 25 at 18:08
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    "it would be reasonably easy to create a userscript a moderator can run that notifies all of top N users in the tag" - are you offering? Because I'm not sinking time into a userscript for it, and without a userscript, I'll rather stop doing burninations if this requirement becomes an official requirement Commented May 25 at 18:31
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    @Zoe I think it's reasonable that such a requirement be contingent upon there being a userscript that accomplishes the task, regardless of who writes the userscript. Given that there are explicit SE API routes to obtain the top answerers and top askers in a tag (i.e., there's no need to write code to scrape the SE tag page), and all of the chat operations are ones for which there are already examples of performing the operation in a userscript (with the possible exception of freezing the room), it seems likely that someone would be willing to step up to write the code.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 25 at 18:41
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I completely disagree that it's anyone's responsibility to (directly) inform any user about burninations like this.

Burninations are when they're in discussion:

enter image description here

The burnination has been in there for over 2 weeks, now.
It is your own responsibility to get involved, if you want to. You can't put that responsibility onto someone else.


As for the idea of inviting "top" users to a chatroom, a problem there is that you're inviting discussion on the burnination in chat, instead of directing those users to the Meta question where any and all concerns should be raised. Now you need to look in 2 places instead of one.

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    To be fair about the featured tag, from the burnination process phase 2 is where we are looking for feedback, in this case I believe that phase lasted for only 3 days after which the burnination began. IMO it won't really hurt if the top users are informed as part of phase 2. Commented May 24 at 9:47
  • About the chat room it can be read only with only a message from the mod directing users to the Meta post about the burnination. Commented May 24 at 9:48
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    But that's just a mod message with extra steps then isn't it?
    – cafce25
    Commented May 24 at 9:49
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    @AbdulAzizBarkat hm, okay, it's been 3 days indeed. Still, the question existed for months. Plenty of time to see it... I'm still not convinced it's anyone's responsibility to notify anyone about a burnination. This seems like an extreme edge-case, to even have an "expert" in a burninated tag.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 24 at 9:52
  • @cafce25 it can be a mod message as well, Ryan M did suggest that to be possible. I'd say chat comes with the benefit though that it would probably be more transparent than mod messages which are private. Commented May 24 at 9:53
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    That's still shifting responsibility. (and imho a waste of mod time). I'd rather have a tweak to the burnination process that means phase 2 must last long enough for users to provide feedback, while the question is featured. Say, 1-2 weeks.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 24 at 9:54
  • Yeah, the whole "but it was featured for 3 days" thing has a very specific vibe to me.
    – yivi
    Commented May 24 at 10:51
  • @yivi which is why I'd argue that that period should at least be 1-2 weeks.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 24 at 10:54
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    Also worth noting that many people have no interest in burninations, and would instead dislike being notified of every burn on a tag they're involved in - especially some of the smaller tags Commented May 24 at 14:12
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When a tag is burninated, it's because it's considered useless for categorizing questions. We categorize questions so that technology-experts can find questions to answer. If a tag is too ambiguous to define an area of expertise, the whole idea of being "top user" in the tag becomes rather meaningless.

That being said, there is little harm in directing more eyes (particularly, more engaged eyes) to the burnination discussion. And there could be situations where the experts, such as they were, can weigh in with concepts that can help move forward the discussion, in whichever direction.

Sadly, I don't think there is any built-in facility for anything like this, and I understand (although I may be wrong) that mod-messages are not considered a "light-weight" measure. And depending on a new feature being created seems rather optimistic, in my opinion.

The meta discussions are "featured", but frankly the sidebar box can easily be ignored, even experienced users. I know I do.

We could informally subvert post-comments for something like this, although maybe some additional criteria should also be defined, besides a user belonging to the "top users" page for the discussed tag.

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  • When does a tag have a top-user? When does it warrant poking them? at 50 tag uses? 500? Why is it not the "top user"'s responsibility to be aware / keep track of what's happening to "his" tag?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 24 at 10:18
  • I don't care whose responsibility it is. I care about getting better results. If we can involve users who might be already invested in the discussion, we may get a more interesting discussion. And yes, I agree some criteria should be defined about what a "top-user" is, although it's clearly related to score number of posts.
    – yivi
    Commented May 24 at 10:20
  • Yeah, my comment was mostly to expand on the questions you already raised :-)
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 24 at 10:22
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    Top Users for a tag is defined: stackoverflow.com/tags/woocommerce/topusers. So if you want to have a feature a mod only feature could be to send each user in the All time column a message that the tag is being burninated with a link to the meta post. Not worth it most of the time.
    – rene
    Commented May 24 at 10:30
  • Oh, I wasn't aware it was a formalized concept. Thanks a lot, @rene. It's most likely not useful most of the time, but some of might be useful, and none-of-the-time should be actively detrimental, so I'd personally count it as a "win".
    – yivi
    Commented May 24 at 10:32
  • @rene I thought (not sure why, can't pinpoint where I read it) that mods where reluctant to use mod-messages for things that were really "warnings" about behavior or something like that, because the mod-messages stood like a red flag in the user history. Do you know if I'm completely off-base here?
    – yivi
    Commented May 24 at 10:36
  • But now look at the top users for product-price, @rene. Surely they don't all need to be notified? (I agree that mod messages seem like a but "much")
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 24 at 10:36
  • I won't use mod-messages for that. I'm saying: Add a new feature that send an inbox message to the top users on a tag that enters the first phase of a burnination. Given that is already a mod-only action the 'send inbox message on behalf of the Community User from tag wiki page to top users' can only be triggered by mods. It should not* be a mod-message.
    – rene
    Commented May 24 at 10:42
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    @rene but that requires *shudders* development work!
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 24 at 10:42
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    @Cerbrus correct! We don't want this implemented, right? To achieve that we need to involve the SE dev team.
    – rene
    Commented May 24 at 10:46
  • @yivi that's not a definition of "topuser" that's literally a list of users with the highest scores for a tag. That means that if a tag has exactly one question and you've answered it, you will appear on that list. (I'm using definition as if it has some meaning, rather than just a happenstance of how things works, don't put too much emphasis in "topuser" as a concept)
    – Braiam
    Commented May 24 at 11:11
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    "There's no point investigating if Mr Smith's alibi holds up," said Officer yivi. "We charge people with murder when we consider them to be the murderer. If someone is the murderer, then that means they were at the scene of the crime - not wherever Mr Smith says he was. The whole idea of investigating a murderer's alibi is therefore rather meaningless." Your analogous first paragraph here makes sense only as long as we never mistakenly try to nuke a useful tag with real experts who might've spoken up in its defence. If the broader community sometimes gets it badly wrong, on the other hand...
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 26 at 10:55
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    @MarkAmery realistically, how many % of all the 14k tags do you believe that fulfill the main purpose of tags?
    – Braiam
    Commented May 26 at 18:50
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Some discussion on this came up in chat and there was a suggestion I liked- to create a chat room linking to the meta discussion and invite the top users into that room to notify them about the meta discussion.

I (think I) do get yivi's sentiment- many of the tags I see burninated don't probably have some super coherent group of experts monitoring the tag (Ex. ), but making such a chat room to notify "top users" isn't that hard, and doesn't hurt. I think it's especially useful for cases that involve splitting an ambiguous tag into proper tags- getting expert input on what names to use for the new tags.

There's no guarantee that the meta discussion will become a hot meta post, or even if it does, that those users will see the hot meta post in the community bulletin on main. Or that those users monitor new/active questions on meta.

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    Yes, my feeling is that if a tag is effectively useless (e.g. the "price" tag referred in the linked comments), that user is an "expert" in that tag seems rather meaningless.
    – yivi
    Commented May 24 at 8:42
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    The problem with a chatroom is that they're messy, and now the information is in 2 places.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 24 at 9:45
  • "There's no guarantee that the meta discussion will become a hot meta post" yes, but it will be featured in phase 2-4 .
    – cafce25
    Commented May 24 at 10:04
  • Burninations weren't always featured in phase 4, but that was an addition in some of the early burninations I did, because it makes it much clearer that the burnination is happening. We don't need to rely on HMP when the process starts. HMP is only relevant before phase 2, but the average time between a request being posted and a request being handled is long thanks to the huge backlog and low throughput, so the phase 2 featured is far more important Commented May 24 at 14:23

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