-52

I have the reputation points that I have, because I truly loved this platform. I fear now that with all of these seemingly arbitrary rules, we now have a stagnant community, where power users, such as myself, can both no longer find answers to their own questions, but also there are far fewer interesting questions to respond to.

I have been on this platform for 14 years. I am in the top fraction of a percent of contributors, and I can no longer use this platform in order to engage with experts to answer niche questions: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/77504020/now-that-it-is-almost-2024-what-is-the-most-verifiably-secure-malloc-implementa

Both the quality of answers, and the predilection to close important questions is pronounced. I am posting here with a heavy heart to say that a platform which I truly loved has died.

I don't think that 5 noobs to this platform should be able to close a question posted by someone like myself. I asked an important question, that needs an answer. If we can't find experts here, then the only option I have is ChatGPT, and all of this is really sad.

Please do something.

26
  • 26
    The question you've linked to appears to be clearly and obviously a request for recommendations. Such requests are explicitly off-topic.
    – Makyen Mod
    Nov 17 at 19:42
  • 1
    To be fair to rook, I do honestly believe they thought they were asking a question with an objective answer.
    – zwol
    Nov 17 at 19:43
  • 18
    The site is far from perfect and I agree has had its fair share of recent problems, but I don't think that the question that you refer to is the cross that you really want to die on. Pick your fight with the site directors, but please, use a better example, and please be more objective and less emotional, if only to encourage more objective responses. Nov 17 at 19:57
  • 22
    Why should the site allow conversation? It's not a discussion forum and never has been one. Nov 17 at 20:04
  • 12
    @rook: your getting "great answers" has nothing to do with whether a question is on-topic or off-topic. Nov 17 at 20:05
  • 15
    @rook: again, please keep conversation objective. Personal attacks and insults (i.e., "dense") have no place, not if you want the conversation (which is allowed in meta) to be constructive. Nov 17 at 20:05
  • 3
    @PurpleSky: be sick, fine but please be objective. Stick to verifiable facts, and leave emotions aside, again, if you want a constructive meta discussion. Nov 17 at 20:10
  • 10
    Just from the question title and question body, it’s clear your intention, was to have a discussion on that topic. The question doesn’t contain a single line of C++ code. Stack Overflow is not a discussion forum, it’s never been a discussion forum, while the community might have issues they are not present when it doesn’t receive an question attempting to have an out of scope discussion posed as a question. The question I looked at has zero answers only comments Nov 17 at 20:11
  • 1
    @HovercraftFullOfEels I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that this site "is not a discussion forum and never has been one" -- in fact, that's one of my biggest objections to current site policy: all the policies in place that try to force people not to have conversations on the main site are counterproductive -- but nonetheless, there are topics of discussion that are a good fit for the Stack Overflow format, and topics that aren't, and all three of the questions rook posted as test cases were correctly closed, IMNSHO.
    – zwol
    Nov 17 at 20:12
  • 7
    @rook that may not be the best way. You'll likely get downvoted again and again, closed again and again, and then you'll come here and say "WHY CAN'T I ASK QUESTIONS AGAIN?". Take some time to refine your question and make sure it's in scope, well formed, all that fun stuff.
    – Patrice
    Nov 17 at 20:12
  • 18
    'I don't think that 5 noobs to this platform should be able to close a question posted by someone like myself.' That is a non-sequitur. More reputation does not equate to a more accurate judgement of question closure. Your question is objectively off-topic because it seeks recommendations for offsite resources. Nov 17 at 20:25
  • 2
    @zwol "but nonetheless, there are topics of discussion that are a good fit for the Stack Overflow format, and topics that aren't". Do you have any idea how to objectively divide these into two groups? Subjective and opinion-based are currently allowed to a certain degree on Codidact, and there's been a few mentions of a discussions feature. I am personally against it, but I'd be interested in hearing more about this topic, in case it's possible to ensure quality and long lasting value with a broader spectrum than what SO allows. Nov 17 at 20:32
  • 1
    @AndreasmovedtoCodidact I'll have to think about that, but off the top of my head, "a complete answer to this question requires an entire [ academic paper / textbook / graduate-level course ]" and "formulating the question precisely enough that it can be answered without handwaves requires more words than are allowed in the question box" seem like good rules for rejecting questions that are otherwise valid.
    – zwol
    Nov 17 at 20:40
  • 7
    "Karma" is not a construct of Stack Exchange; it's one of Reddit. "Reputation" is the correct term. Nov 17 at 20:57
  • 10
    note that unkind name-calling is not tolerated under the code of conduct. not sure whether "noob" falls under that, but the way it's being used here leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.
    – starball
    Nov 17 at 23:00

2 Answers 2

36

I have been on this platform for 14 years.

Then you ought to understand at least the basics about how it works.

Instead, I am seeing a "new contributor" indicator on your post here - which is to say, in all this time it did not occur to you even once to come to the meta site to ask about policy or contribute an opinion on someone else's interpretation of policy, etc. (I'm not sure exactly how long there has been a separate meta site, but I am confident that there was much fanfare when it was unveiled.)

I am in the top fraction of a precent of contributors

As someone in a roughly comparable position on the leaderboards, let me be the first to assure you that this doesn't mean nearly as much as you seem to think it does. In particular, it does not entitle you to any special treatment, nor does it make you any more qualified to judge what meets the site's standards.

The latter qualification comes from engaging with the community, reading policy (along with the documentation that lays out the rationale for that policy), meditating on the site's purpose, and putting in time to curate the site.

Reputation says precious little about any of this. About 5.8% of my reputation comes from a single answer to this obviously garbage question which I have been trying to get deleted. (If your reaction was "of course that's garbage, it's some noob asking obvious things" then you have failed the exam; go back to the textbook.)

I can no longer use this platform in order to engage with experts to answer niche questions

You absolutely can do this, and it happens all the time on this site. For example, questions tagged language-lawyer with 10+ question score, sorted by newest.

However, you must ask a question that meets the site's standards, which are clearly advertised in multiple easily-accessible locations. The question you attempted fails on multiple grounds.

"Now that it is almost 2024" is the lead-in for something that would be asked on a discussion forum. Stack Overflow is not a discussion forum, and never was. The model was created - albeit experimentally - specifically so that people could avoid the frustrations associated with trying to research a problem and stumbling on a traditional discussion forum. Nowadays we have a much more refined understanding of how to make the system work, but that fundamental idea has not changed.

The question as asked in the title needs more focus (is "too broad", in older terms) as zwol's answer points out - even if we disregard that it's blatantly seeking recommendations.

You start off by proposing a candidate and then immediately writing it off for a reason that is outside of your initial framing. If you really are asking what gives the maximum possible security, then it does not matter whether that solution is inefficient. If you need to care about both then you need a clearly defined way to evaluate the trade-off.

Both the quietly of answers, and the predilection to close important questions is pronounced. I am posting here with a heavy heart to say that a platform which I truly loved has died.

This sort of dramatic rhetoric accomplishes nothing positive.

I don't think that 5 noobs to this platform should be able to close a question

If you cared about policy, you might have noticed that it has only taken three close votes, for years now.

Or that casting a vote to close requires 3000 reputation, which less than 100k user accounts have out of about 21.5 million. (The newest such account appears to have been created in August; verification is left as an exercise.)

But more importantly, please consider that "noobs" are capable of learning things, and some of them do so quickly.

posted by someone like myself.

Again, it has nothing to do with who you are.

You must ask a question that meets standards, and you do not get special privileges in this regard due to your reputation, account age, subject matter expertise or anything else like that.

Ideally, being who you are should result in asking better questions. But that also requires you to put in the effort to understand the standards.

If you imagine that you should be exempt from this then you have fundamentally misunderstood both the community we are trying to build and the goal we are trying to achieve. If anything, we are actively trying to reject the attitudes you express here.

I asked an important question, that needs an answer.

Respectfully, I disagree.

If we can't find experts here, then the only option I have is ChatGPT, and all of this is really sad.

There are still experts here. For example, I can tell you things about the inner workings of Python that very few Pythonistas understand. For that matter, the list of people "last seen this week" includes many people I recognize as past "heroes" of the site, members of the Python dev team, well-known Microsoft employees and dev bloggers, etc. etc. etc.

Please feel free to use ChatGPT as a search engine. (If you are the expert you present yourself as, then you should well understand that it literally does not know what it is saying and all claims in its output require separate verification.)

15
  • Thank you for the thoughtful response. I fear that thousands of good questions are now being closed for pedantic reasons that harm both the individual and the community. While you are correct that I did break the rules, we must ask ourselves do these new rules help people? And more over, is this platform to help people or not?
    – rook
    Nov 17 at 20:37
  • 1
    +1 thank you, this is really good stuff.
    – rook
    Nov 17 at 20:39
  • 14
    "I fear that thousands of good questions are now being closed for pedantic reasons that harm both the individual and the community." This is because you fail to understand that these questions are not good, and why we sincerely believe this to be the case. "And more over, is this platform to help people or not?" - this has been addressed countless times on Meta. Yes, we help people by existing, primarily as a searchable reference. No, we do not directly help people in the sense of providing a help desk, discussion forum, tech support center or anything else along those lines. Nov 17 at 20:42
  • 1
    I understand that you believe that you have good rational for these rules, but it is no secret that engagement has fallen off of a cliff. Disallowing exerts to communicate is likely a contributing factor. Perhaps we need to rethink the role of this platform on today's internet.
    – rook
    Nov 17 at 20:51
  • 12
    It is not at all inherently a bad thing that engagement has fallen off a cliff. As time passes there should naturally be fewer outstanding, unasked questions that meet standards. The ultimate goal of a Q&A library is zero engagement, because everything that needs to be asked has already been asked and answered so clearly and thoroughly that nobody who finds the question needs any further explanation. A new question is a bug report proposing that a worthwhile question is missing. Nov 17 at 21:11
  • 9
    That said, experts are not "disallowed to communicate", and being able to ask questions that blatantly don't meet standards has absolutely nothing to do with such communication. Nov 17 at 21:12
  • You seem to miss the point entirely. You can still be a Q&A site that allows for people to be able to communicate more freely. It is important to note, that even though my question didn't meet these strict rules - the community wanted answer but was unable. If this question was answered, we would all learn something and the AI trained on these questions would then be able to help future generations.
    – rook
    Nov 17 at 21:22
  • A question unanswered is unable to unlock value for anyone. Should we not care more about the value that we provide by our services?
    – rook
    Nov 17 at 21:23
  • 7
    I understand your position perfectly well. I just strongly disagree. (You should also consider that the community for the most part is opposed to the company's various forays into AI.) Nov 17 at 21:23
  • 1
    you are wrong in away that extinguishes ideas, and prevents people form learning and growing. I know now why i am sad, it is because of people who think like you.
    – rook
    Nov 17 at 21:24
  • Let us continue this discussion in chat. Nov 17 at 21:24
  • 2
    @rook people who think like you, started Codidact. That's essentially the choice. Accept how Stack Overflow is different from sites like Reddit on purpose and thus you'll have to adapt rather than demand... or don't accept it, and thus go spend your time and energy somewhere else. The cool thing is that Codidact is still in its infancy, so it allows you to pay attention to all the changes that'll be made to it overtime which will slowly but surely turn it into a version of Stack Overflow. But that is with the big IF that it takes off and starts to see volume like Stack Overflow does.
    – Gimby
    Nov 21 at 14:20
  • 2
    @Gimby "people who think like you, started Codidact." as a major Codidact proponent, I strongly disagree. The underlying idea about "community" does not mean losing sight of how a Q&A site works. For example, while we have minimally "threaded" comments with a higher character limit and more access to formatting, the design deliberately keeps them more out of the way. Codidact is orders of magnitude more like Stack Exchange than it is like Reddit. Nov 22 at 4:07
  • @Gimby: Stack Overflow Forums opened recently (August 2023). Nov 22 at 14:30
  • @Gimby thank you I have created an account on Codidact. StackOverflow no longer serves any purpose, the leadership forgot what made this site great to begin with, and has stagnated. Very sad to see :(
    – rook
    Nov 25 at 18:50
33

I have a lot of bones to pick with both Stack Exchange corporate and with the moderation policies enforced by the Stack Overflow userbase, but in this specific case, how could you have expected any other outcome? You asked a question that falls squarely within the bounds of "seeking recommendations for books, tools, software libraries, etc." which has been an official close reason since before I joined the site. It is not a question with a single objective answer. It would take me an entire computer science paper just to pin down what 'verifiably secure malloc implementation' means enough that I could assess the quality of any given implementation.

6
  • 2
    I have posted three times, and all are getting closed. I was once able to ask questions here. And now I am getting answers... in the comments because the question was closed. People wanted to answer, but 5 people decided that is don't deserve an answer.
    – rook
    Nov 17 at 19:47
  • 8
    @rook three people for close, these days. Nov 17 at 19:53
  • 1
    @rook I'm kind of six of one, half a dozen on the other on the three vote close. It's great for the questions I think need closing, but wastes a lot of reopen votes for the ones I think didn't need closing. I'm with Zwol that under the posting guidelines your question was doomed to its fate. Even without a hard "no recommendations" rule the question would have been difficult to manage in the Q&A format. It's a question that needs answering, though I'm not sure I'd trust most of the answers it would get on SO. I expect to burn a lot of rep on answer downvotes, and I'm not even a security pro. Nov 17 at 20:14
  • 9
    I looked at all three of your questions, and ... sorry, you need to look elsewhere for the answers to these questions. As an academic the first thing I would try is walking the citation graph in both directions from scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=9894423302964436180 .
    – zwol
    Nov 17 at 20:16
  • 3
    @user4581301 I'm very much an anti-deletionist and because of that I do think three-vote close was a mistake. Deletion should be only for spam and abuse; closing should be for questions that either cannot be answered at all (insufficient information, failed to ask a question) or cannot be effectively answered within the site format (the case here) and there should be a high bar for all three. Several times I've found legitimate questions that had been closed because they looked like there wasn't enough information for a definitive answer, to people who haven't seen that problem before.
    – zwol
    Nov 17 at 20:24
  • 3
    I think we're mostly in agreement, zwol. I'm a bit harsher on the closing because I prefer that the question not just be clear to the asker and an expert, but that it should be clear enough that the next reader with a similar problem can make the connections between the question and the answer to be sure it's applicable to them and their problem. A really good answer fills in enough of the missing information to do this. Deletion, too damn easy and undeletion too damn hard--because you can't find the question. Nov 17 at 20:38

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .