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I recently flagged this post (screenshot as it is now deleted) for moderator attention, which had been obviously vandalized by the asker himself. Given that I am below the threshold of 2000 reputation, I thought it would be better to flag the post for moderator intervention, rather than edit it myself.

My flag where I wrote:

User is self-sabotaging the post-> Question has been removed and been replaced with a SO-is-mean-text

had been declined with the message:

Declined - please attempt an edit or rollback yourself before flagging for moderator attention

Had I 2000 reputation, I would simply agree and do so. But being below that, I don't see that being a viable option:

Any manual rollback (by choosing an older revision and suggesting it) I were to make, still would count as a regular suggest-edit, as I understand it. Therefore, it has to be approved, either by the asker, who vandalized the post in the first place, or by the reviewers of the suggest-edit queue. The latter would mean that the post would stay defaced for quite some time1.

That got me thinking: Should I edit/rollback anyway? But If so, perhaps we should have the rollback function be given an independent reputation requirement, not binding it to the unreviewed edit privilege. Perhaps in a broader discussion the whole 2000 reputation limit needs to be overhauled.

This issue of edit-or-flag unclarity seems to have existed for some time, as per this post from 2014.


1 Usually takes some days, even weeks for a suggestion to be reviewed from what I have experienced. Not sure however if this is an universal experience.
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  • 23
    This one is tricky. Giving instant rollback to all users with no control or overview over it is likely to lead to abuse of the system. The current system is extremely bad for making suggested rollbacks: 1. the author can just reject it 2. it requires two reviewers to approve it which will likely take time. 3. Moreover, it makes it harder for a single full edit user who encounters the post to do the rollback if there is already a suggestion. With all that, even a modflag is not ideal since it will likely take even more time to action than a suggested edit. It's just no-win at the moment.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Nov 10, 2023 at 11:34
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    I see your point and by no mean should everyone be able to instantly rollback anything. But the bar of 2000 seem a bit excessive. An extra privilege, not bundled with suggest-edits, might help, e.g. Instant rollback at 1000 reputation (or whatever limit seems appropriate). As you can only change the post to a state that already existed, I believe lower-rep users could be trusted with that to some extent.
    – A-Tech
    Commented Nov 10, 2023 at 11:42
  • What was your flag text?
    – rene
    Commented Nov 10, 2023 at 11:49
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    Flags are the appropriate way to address this in case you don't have the edit privileges, I guess the moderator might have mistaken you to have the edit privilege. See: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/271934/… and meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/280720/… Commented Nov 10, 2023 at 11:53
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    I agree. However, the site is not built with "gradual" permissions. Which is, IMO, a mistake. I'd much rather people with, say, 50 (adjust threshold as appropriate) approved suggested edits be able to use a rollback in some fashion. Maybe Maybe even have alternative entry criteria - X approved edits, or X helpful flags, or X reputation, etc. However, this is not how the system works. And it currently takes the stance that rep is somehow trustworthy for who is allowed to edit or not.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Nov 10, 2023 at 11:54
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    @rene "User is self-sabotaging the post-> Question has been removed and been replaced with a SO-is-mean-text"
    – A-Tech
    Commented Nov 10, 2023 at 11:54
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    @A-Tech perhaps it would be better to be more straightforward in the flag text. Something like: "User has vandalized their post. Can this edit please be rolled back?" Give the moderators an action you expect from them as well. Commented Nov 10, 2023 at 11:57
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    @VLAZ Another option would be handling rollbacks the way spam flags are handled. X persons flagged for rollback -> The post will be automatically rolled back.
    – A-Tech
    Commented Nov 10, 2023 at 11:58
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    "Perhaps in a broader discussion the whole 2000 reputation limit needs to be overhauled" - no, it's perfectly terrible as it is. In a perfect world, your intentions and your knowledge of the site would dictate what you can and cannot do. But that can't be measured in software, so we have this flawed internet point system instead. The threshold needs to be higher than what feels comfortable, not too pester you but to hold back the people who want to treat the site as if they own it. They always spoil the mood.
    – Gimby
    Commented Nov 10, 2023 at 14:05
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    Well yes and no. I am not against using the reputation system per se, but there are some inconsistencies/possible optimizations. Some examples: Rollbacks do not hold the same gravity as suggestion and should be treated differently. You can access some review queues with 500 rep, but not edit in the queues. A weird mix as when I take the time to actually do reviews, I find myself quite limited: In theory I can only edit up to 5 salvageable post, 0 with the suggest queue often being at limit. A reason I work on that rarely.
    – A-Tech
    Commented Nov 10, 2023 at 14:30
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    @Daviid No? It still requires consensus from multiple users. The suggestion was for the same way spam is handled - there is no one regular user who has the power of mods to spam&nuke a post. Which is rather different from just power to rollback. Honestly, I find it's even more restrictive than suggested edits which everybody, including anonymous users, can do. A suggested edit would 1. be visible whereas flags aren't. 2. requires two approvers only or even one who is more motivated. I doubt there would be an automatic action with two flags. The system requires 4 spam flag to nuke a post.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Nov 10, 2023 at 15:40
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    More generally, it'd be nice if there were a way to flag for curator attention. Commented Nov 10, 2023 at 20:02
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    @VLAZ yes, the rep system is fundamentally broken by being one-dimensional, among other problems. Codidact's design tries to fix this, but it needs a lot of work on the details. Commented Nov 10, 2023 at 20:04
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    Maybe the best “workaround” (given how unlikely it is that the system is changed) would be to post the question in some chat room so that someone with enough reputation can act on it. That’s probably way quicker than the review queue and a mod flag.
    – poke
    Commented Nov 11, 2023 at 13:58
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    Side note: All the activity on the question: Post 13:58, edit-to-improve 14;09, edit-to-rant 14:17, rollback 14:19, close 14:19, delete 14:19 happened within 20 minutes. Apparently, OP got DVs (in first 11 minutes?), tried to fix the post, and got frustrated when not getting a response with 8 minutes. For me, I would have commented about how to improve the post rather than DV, so I can understand OP's frustration (not a reason to vandalize, however). I've often noticed some questions get DV'ed within 10 seconds of initial post for well meaning attempts, so is that an issue? Commented Nov 12, 2023 at 23:06

3 Answers 3

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Ouch, I made a mistake, sorry. I usually check the reputation level of flaggers in situations like the one you described, however this time I just... didn't.

As a matter of fact, you haven't much recourse against vandalism with fewer than 2000 reputation beside raising a flag.

However, the other unfortunate side of this story is that with the current state of the flag queue, it's impossible to guarantee that your flag would be actioned any faster than a suggested edit. In fact, the chances aren't great.

Some of us process the flag queue in LIFO order to catch emergent issues, but 1) not always, and 2) small-scale non-abusive vandalism might fall behind more pressing matters anyway.

In this particular case, the vandalism was promptly reversed by another user just a few seconds before you raised your flag — you most surely were writing the flag text while that happened — so no other follow up is needed at this time.

Please do take rene's advice over there and, if possible, mention in your flag text that you are below 2k reputation whenever you flag to request what you believe is an urgent edit.

As for your actual question: it'd be great to have some system in place to allow unprivileged users to deal with vandalism. Even making the rollback button visible might help. However with Staff being cut I'm not going to bank on this getting any developer priority in the recent future.

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    No worries. This post is not meant to complain about my flag being rejected, I agree that my flag text had not the best of wording. Just saw that the issue of rollback flags being rejected in general exists at least since 2014, so I figured that some sort of change may be is needed.
    – A-Tech
    Commented Nov 10, 2023 at 13:21
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Your flag shouldn't have been declined. If you come across (self)vandalism and are below 2K you should always flag because you can't solve this on your own.

Moderators have powers but not super-powers. If you give them a cookie make sure it is their taste. In your custom flag describe what action you want them to take.

If you say:

User is self-sabotaging the post-> Question has been removed and been replaced with a SO-is-mean-text

That is a fact but lacking a call to action.

Going forward do say:

User is self-sabotaging the post-> Question has been removed and been replaced with a SO-is-mean-text. As I'm under 2K please rollback the post to revision X. Other posts are also affected: [link]. Please check if the history of this user shows similar behavior and deal with it accordingly.

This gives a mod enough context to act on without having to do a lot of brain-gymnastics. Moderators that still decline such flag can be called out on Meta without mercy.

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    I'd suggest mentioning in the flag a suggestion for the moderator to check for inappropriately deleted posts (not visible to regular users) and edits on the user's deleted posts (not listed for anyone until the post is undeleted). While SO moderators generally know they should perform these checks for a user that's vandalizing their content, it's easy to forget to do so (and a bit of a pain in the rear to go through the user's deleted posts). I've generally felt mentioning doing such in flags I've raised on other sites to be helpful, particularly when the user is vandalizing multiple posts.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Nov 10, 2023 at 14:35
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    @Makyen does the custom flag text allow for monologues or do we still have to elaborate within 500 chars? You know we both have troubles with that, right? ;)
    – rene
    Commented Nov 10, 2023 at 14:56
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perhaps we should have the rollback function be given an independent reputation requirement, not binding it to the unreviewed edit privilege.

I don't personally see a significant enough reason (at least- not as I'm writing this). In my experience, vandalism ranks pretty low in commonality in the pool of types of problematic things™.

That by itself isn't a reason not to do what you're suggesting, but you have to weigh against the possible problems this could result in as well- Ex. potentially more rollback wars. Even rolling back itself can be used for purposes of vandalism. One of my research questions for this would be how frequently vandalism versus rollback wars happen right now. Add to that that vandalism doesn't necessarily require mod intervention/notification (unless it's a case of rude/abusive content), but rollback wars do (at least- generally, as far as I'm aware).

Also, vandalism isn't the only thing that edit roll-backs are for, so the solution you're proposing has more implications than the problem it's supposed to solve. Something to be cautious of.

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