6
  • Needs improvement
    • A community-specific reason (Until I actually clicked on it I though this meant that the question was supposed to go on another site in the Stack Exchange network, didn't even know there were more options inside)
      • Not about programming or software development
      • Seeking recommendations for books, tools, software libraries, and more
      • Needs debugging details
      • Not reproducible or was caused by a typo
      • Not written in English
      • Blatantly off-topic
      • This question belongs on another site in the Stack Exchange network

In "A community-specific reason"'s description we have "This question doesn’t meet a Stack Overflow guideline." why not make the title "Does not follow guidelines"?

Why are these reasons under "Needs improvement" when there's really nothing to improve? All final reasons seem to imply that the question should be closed deleted or moved. Except maybe:

  • Needs debugging details (Actual improvement)
  • Not reproducible (Actual improvement if it means that there's an error but not the error OP asked about, or an error that has to do with environment discrepancies, people can still help with those) or was caused by a typo (so no need to improve the question, there's no error anymore)
  • Not written in English (I guess translation is an improvement)

Also why not change the radio button for options that hide more options inside so it is visibly apparent that there are more options inside?

6
  • "why not make the title Does not follow guidelines?" Because that's ambiguous? What/Who's guidelines?
    – Thom A
    Commented Oct 10, 2023 at 13:28
  • The other reasons can potentially also be fixed with an edit from OP...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 10, 2023 at 13:28
  • "Why are these reasons under "Needs improvement" when there's really nothing to improve?" you prove this point false in the following bullet points...
    – Thom A
    Commented Oct 10, 2023 at 13:29
  • @ThomA The site's guidelines, are there any other guidelines? Maybe Does not follow question/asking guidelines ---- Only Needs debugging details Not reproducible in a very specific case and Not written in English can be considered improvements there's still 4 reasons that can not be fixed with an edit from OP, or at least I just can't see it.
    – Daviid
    Commented Oct 10, 2023 at 13:34
  • I'll meet you halfway - "Needs improvement" is perhaps not the best label. I can say that about a lot of text in the site, but naming things remains very hard and I often have trouble coming up with replacements that are actually an improvement. Effectively when you click that option, you get the list of close reasons which you also get when you choose to vote to close rather than flag (an option not yet available to you). When you go through that route there isn't really a hard concept of "needs improvement", it's simply a list of close reasons.
    – Gimby
    Commented Oct 10, 2023 at 15:01
  • 3

3 Answers 3

10

One of the projects I've been working on (though it's a bit stuck) is to make improvements to the close modal UI so that the text shown there and in post notices more accurately indicate when those close reasons should be used... now, I'm doing this on a network-wide basis since these top-level options are not site-specific. But, to be clear, the options you're seeing are close reasons, you're just seeing them in a different framing because you don't have the privilege to close yet.

Needs improvement

Regarding "Needs improvement" - because your reputation is lower, it's the option shown in the flag menu, rather than what high rep users would see when closing, which is actually the "Close" menu - so you're totally correct that these seem like reasons to close a question. For those of you who have high rep, this does actually have some slight differences from the Close menu, despite it showing the normal close flow if you have 3k rep (image from another site, not SO, but should be the same).

Screenshot of flag menu "Needs improvement" modal showing the header "What kind of improvement does this question need?"

The header text, "What kind of improvement does this question need?" does seem a bit odd considering "Duplicate" is not really an "improvement", even if the other top-level close reasons do encourage improvement. That said, duplicate is... duplicated from the prior menu, too. I think the header for the "Community-specific" option is clearer, as it says "Why isn't this question suited for [sitename]?"

Regardless of the language, closure is done because a question needs to be improved. We don't generally leave questions open in the hopes that the asker will return and add the needed information but closure is also intended to be a temporary state should the user actually improve the question. That's not always clear as many users think closure is the end of the line - and they're not wrong - few closed questions ever get reopened, even if edited.

Personally, I feel that "Needs improvement" is... not optimal. It used to be "Should be closed", or something similar but I believe we were concerned about it using jargon that might not be clear to new users who were flagging rather than voting to close. I don't particularly like the choice we made for the reasons you explain and I'd be open to adjusting it as part of the project. Hiding the jargon just delays people learning about the concept and the terminology.

The descriptive text does link to information about closure but you're right when you say that many close reasons are dead ends - no "improvement" can be done to make the questions in scope for the site, other than just asking an entirely different in-scope question. It's unclear what we could use instead, though with the right help text, "Should be closed" might still be a reasonable option.

Community-specific close reasons

I didn't specifically plan to change the "Community-specific" text as part of my overhaul of the close menu but that doesn't mean I shouldn't... It's been long enough since I asked the MSE question I linked to, I don't actually remember whether anyone mentioned it in an answer. I'm in a weird spot because I created the current header when it used to be "off topic" - which I hope we can agree is far worse than "Community-specific", since "off-topic" is much less applicable to these close reasons unless you squint your eyes in just the right way.

That said, for people who aren't really conversant in the fact that there is a full network of sites beyond SO, I can understand why this may be confusing wording. The emphasis here is to separate close/flag reasons that users across the network will recognize from ones that are created by a community based on their specific needs... and we avoided "Site-specific" for... reasons I can't remember, though it was my initial recommendation. That said, I don't think it would remove the confusion you're feeling.

It's common for these reasons to be subsets of the network-wide reasons but they are intended to give better guidance to users who have their questions closed with the reason since the network-wide reason is (understandably) non-specific. We've fielded requests in the past to allow customization of the top-level close reasons (which I'm not opposed to) but this would require a much bigger overhaul than a pure copy-based change since I think the only customization that's possible is translation of the UI for our non-English based sites.

Menu UX confusion

When it comes to having an indication there's more options buried in the menu, absolutely. We used to use an ellipsis to indicate this but it was dropped at one point so now we surprise users with the menu should they ever click on it as their choice. Updating the text could make that more clear, too, so a reasonable thought.

2
  • (Hum, pinging not working), yep-yep, seen that, but I thought is was worth stressing a bit... // Another point/mini-feedback, it took me also several years understanding what "Off-Topic" means/t on 'SO' => "Out of Scope". Everywhere on Internet, "Off-Topic" is Forum-Terminology (but 'SO' is not a Forum, right!?) to remove a Post that is not related to a specific Thread, so only wintered Users (of 'Meta') and Curators use and understand what "Off-Topic" means on 'SO'/'SE'. New Users don't, or only after several years... // Hum, previous Comment already removed, okay..., fair enough...
    – chivracq
    Commented Oct 10, 2023 at 18:50
  • 1
    Yeah, exactly. I had to break the habit of using "off-topic" after a while because it wasn't clear to everyone that I meant "out of scope for the site" rather than actually "not related to programming". It causes more confusion that it's worth and "out of scope" isn't that much longer in the end.
    – Catija
    Commented Oct 11, 2023 at 12:42
13

The other close reasons - needs details or clarity and needs focus, are universal i.e. they apply to all sites. After all you can, in theory ask a cooking question on Cooking such as what are all the skills, training and experience required to become a chef and I imagine that would be too broad there.

A community-specific reason is just a way to get to the site specific close reasons for each site. Any question could, in theory be improved.

  • Questions not written in English could be rewritten by the OP in English.
  • Questions seeking books could be rewritten to talk about the problem being faced and why the OP can't solve it rather than simply asking for a book or tutorial on the topic.
  • Questions needing debugging details could be edited to contain those missing debugging details.

etc.

We need to remember we're not the only site and the software has to work for and be customisable to other sites too that have different requirements and definitions of what is and isn't on-topic. After all, even our own Meta has a different set of reasons to the main site.

2
  • Hum, "seeking books" sounds very outdated for 'SO'. OK for Cooking/Arts/Literature/Philosophy/Economics. but not anymore (2023) for technologies/technical fields/programming. I would think...
    – chivracq
    Commented Oct 10, 2023 at 20:39
  • 2
    @chivracq and yet the help centre mentions books amongst other things Commented Oct 10, 2023 at 20:43
5

Until I actually clicked on it I [...], didn't even know there were more options inside)

Yep. I also didn't know about it until I somehow stumbled upon it. I think it has serious discoverability issues.


Why are these reasons under "Needs improvement" when there's really nothing to improve?

I contest "nothing" as applying to all close reasons (though I agree that it doesn't apply to all of them (either at all, or very well)).

  • Not about programming or software development: It depends on the question. Maybe it can be modified to be on-topic.

  • Seeking recommendations for books, tools, software libraries, and more: Can often be improved by writing it as a question about how to achieve something instead of asking for tools that do that thing. See Shog9's answer to When is a resource request on-topic?.

  • Needs debugging details: Yes, it can be improved by adding debugging details.

  • Not reproducible or was caused by a typo: Contrary to what you think, I think it's probably more on the rare side that such a question can be editing into something of lasting value.

  • Not written in English: Yes, it can be improved, but it's going to be tough even after translation if the asker has difficult reading and comprehending English. There are tips and info about writing in English in /help/how-to-ask.

  • Blatantly off-topic - This question belongs on another site in the Stack Exchange network: Probably pretty rare that the question can be edited to be on-topic if it is legitimately blatantly off-topic, but I wouldn't rule it out altogether.

You also forgot about the non-site specific close-reasons listed under "needs improvement" in the flag dialog.

  • Duplicate: If it's actually not a duplicate, then the asker can edit to explain why.

  • Needs Details or Clarity: Yes, it can be improved by adding detail and/or clarifying the question.

  • Needs focus: Narrow down the question to something that is less broad. Limit the question post to only one question, or a few highly-related questions

  • Opinion-based: See /help/dont-ask's section on "Good Subjective".

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