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Today, the Mobile Development Collective is launching on Stack Overflow. In case you’re new to Stack Overflow or want a refresher, collectives helps users find trusted answers faster, connect with subject matter experts from the community, and share knowledge around the technologies they use most.

Reasoning, tags and scope

As with previous collective topic selection, high user activity and pageviews pointed to the mobile development space. The area of practice is fairly easy to define with a few tags. We are also using this collective to scale the Discussions experiment to another area of practice that has potential for those types of conversations.

The tags currently being used to define the collective are , , , and .

Do these feel like the right tags? Are there any that seem missing or any that don’t belong?

In the Discussions space, what are the topics that are likely to be most discussed, and what are the ones we’d hope to avoid?

If you’re active in the tags and have found yourself wishing for improvements in some area, post your thoughts about what the ideal scenario might be. Even if it seems unrealistic, often that can be a great starting point for ideation and meaningful change and can be potential areas of focus to explore as the collective grows.

Recognized Members

The Mobile Development Collective will have Recognized Members (RM) designated primarily as subject matter experts who are marked as such in the Discussions space. They will be noted as RMs on the leaderboard and the Overview page as well. Recognized Members in the Mobile Development Collective will not be prompted to review article submissions or mark answers as recommended on behalf of the collective.

For now, Recognized Members’ answers on questions will still receive additional markup noting their role, though we are looking at potential changes to that recommendation markup in the future.

The Recognized Member role in the Mobile Development Collective will be open to any user with a gold badge in one of the collective’s tags, and who has not been suspended in the past 12 months. Invitations to the role will begin rolling out today and will appear in the inbox.

Anyone who qualifies can also express their interest in a comment or answer on this post. Those interested in being involved are also welcome to inquire about the RM role via the contact form if they feel more comfortable that way. However, the Recognized Member role is not required to be part of helping define how the collective operates. The first step in being involved is participating in the conversation on this post!

General questions

The Mobile Development Collective is intended as a space for a subcommunity to grow and thrive in ways that make sense for this area of practice.

If you’re active in these tags or in a related Stack Exchange community, what questions do you have about the collective? What opportunities or challenges do you see ahead?

Please note: the answers and discussion here are intended to be specific to the Mobile Development Collective. If you have thoughts or feedback about the current approach to collectives, please add those here.


Update – September 28

We’ve made updates to the tags in the collective, removing and . More details can be found in this answer.

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  • 11
    Why are you associating cross-platform programming languages with mobile development?
    – Erik A
    Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 17:34
  • 2
    Is flutter the only language used for mobile development? It’s only one of two I’ve ever used, but surely there’s others?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 17:40
  • 7
    @KevinB I assume they'd get in even more trouble if they'd add Java, C#, C++, Haskell, Python and JS to mobile development.
    – Erik A
    Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 17:41
  • 4
    @ErikA I agree, which is why I think it shouldn’t be called mobile development. In its current form this collective is effectively a free sponsored collective… assuming it isn’t a sponsored collective
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 17:42
  • 3
    @ErikA With dart so closely tied to flutter, that one made sense. But it can be removed if it feels out of place due to the cross-platform uses.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 18:05
  • 9
    This is such a mish mash. If you want to support mobile development as separate category, then why include specific frameworks or languages in it. You either have to include all of them or none. It is ridiculous that you have collective holding Android and iOS tags without including the most used languages on those platforms. And if you start including those languages, you will realize that those languages support more than mobile development. It is a mess.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 18:19
  • 2
    @DalijaPrasnikar It is indeed challenging to define an area of practice just by using existing tags. More ideally it would be done by tag intersection to capture the relationships more precisely. But why is it ridiculous to have the android and ios tags? Is there a common scenario where those are used outside the context of mobile development?
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 18:24
  • 3
    @Berthold Why does Dart being closely tied with Flutter matter? One of the main points of Flutter is that it's a unified platform for desktop, mobile and web development. Looking at their home page they lead with that and list it 4 times over.
    – Erik A
    Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 18:25
  • 4
    @Berthold I meant it is not ridiculous to have Android and iOS tags when it comes to mobile development, but that you cannot bind languages used for development on those platforms without dragging in everything else. So if you want to have mobile development as a collective, then you should probably have only those two tags under collective and nothing more. How well will that work that is another question.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 18:32
  • 4
    Is there reasoning for leaving out the mobile tag? At a quick glance it like there's occasionally a react or unity-centered question with the tag, but I'd think that designing a mobile compatible website or creating a game for mobile (whether the target is browser, store, or vr) would fit the "mobile dev" category
    – GammaGames
    Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 18:56
  • What about to add also react-native? It's definitely focused on mobile development (at least more than general dart).
    – Babu
    Commented Oct 1, 2023 at 8:06
  • 1
    The question of "who is this for?" is especially important. I think "mobile" is far too broad a topic for a group of individuals to find useful. I could imagine splitting this into three collectives: iOS, Android, and Cross-Platform Mobile. (I could also imagine splitting the Cross-Platform Mobile one into several based on technology, but there might be interest in sharing knowledge between them, I really have no idea.) As an iOS developer, it's not like I don't know anything about Android development, but also, I'm not interested in joining a group full of Android developers.
    – livingtech
    Commented Oct 1, 2023 at 18:40

6 Answers 6

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Concerning tag inclusion

I don't think Dart should be part of it. Dart is a general-purpose programming language. You can do a lot with Dart that has absolutely nothing to do with mobile development.

Granted, Dart's "killer-app" is Flutter. But even Flutter I find not a great idea to slap a label on everything tagged with it as "Mobile Development". Flutter can be used to target mobile device platforms. But it can also target the web, and desktop platforms. It's going to give some real whiplash/confusion if you call everything tagged as being Mobile Development. Imagine I want to ask a Flutter question specifically about when targetting the web or desktop. Ex. https://api.flutter.dev/flutter/dart-html/dart-html-library.html, or do FFI with desktop platform things, or customize the desktop host application.

Dalija made good points about this in the comments:

This is such a mish mash. If you want to support mobile development as separate category, then why include specific frameworks or languages in it. You either have to include all of them or none. It is ridiculous that you have collective holding Android and iOS tags without including the most used languages on those platforms. And if you start including those languages, you will realize that those languages support more than mobile development. It is a mess.

Similar points I made for Flutter and Dart apply to languages used in Android development- Java and Kotlin. They both are general purpose languages and can target several different platforms including desktop, mobile, and web (*salutes applets). Similar goes for Swift, Objective-C, etc.

Concerning "recognized members"

Learning and gaining proficiency with a technology is a long-term investment, and for that reason, it's statistically rare for people to have expertise in multiple areas. My understanding has been that before things like React Native and Flutter, if you wanted a native mobile app for multiple mobile platforms, you'd pretty much need to hire someone for each platform to build the thing for that platform. I had concerns about letting experts in typically-non-overlapping technologies (Ex. iOS and Android as opposed to Flutter and Dart) be able to have authority on other things they aren't really experts in. It seems like you realized that. Quoting Berthold from the other post

Recognized Members won’t be prompted to review article submissions or mark answers as recommended on behalf of the collective. They will still be called out on the leaderboard and other collective-specific content spaces, reinforcing their status as subject matter experts.

That's good, but now my question is why do this as one collective? Up until now, most of the collectives have lined up nicely with a particular set of technologies within a particular company or group. This seems like a pretty big break of pattern, and considering that you're already having to tweak the business logic, it just seems to me like refactoring is needed. If the goal is to get a space for discussions about mobile development, then why not just un-marry Discussions from collectives?

Concerning content

What are some examples of discussions that you expect to be a good fit in this space, and that you expect people will have? If this is just about technology comparisons, I've already written my thoughts on how to constructively do comparisons here. If this is about having constructive subjective content, then I've already said here that subjective content is not banned on SO, and that there are already clear guidelines about how to do it in Q&A.

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This is...wow.

Okay, I moonlit as a mobile developer for about a year and a half back in 2014-2015, and it was...not a consistent thing.

To start with, "mobile development" has evolved leaps and bounds ever since I had one of those "Developing Mobile Apps with Android" books, which I think I had the good graces to let go to a Goodwill location since it targeted Ice Cream Sandwich.

To be blunt, there are two chief schools of thought on it:

  • Native-app development, using languages/technologies such as Swift, Objective-C, Java and Kotlin
  • Cross-compilation efforts by the likes of Kivy and Ionic

...with a myriad of other contenders that have cropped up in the nearly ten years or so since I dabbled in it. The latest craze now is a retreat in some places from native app development, and this idea of mobile-first design, which coupled with some advances in HTML5, make native applications a harder sell unless something really needed it.

Oh, and don't get me started on mobile web app development. There are so many different versions and vendor quirks for Webkit out there that it makes the heyday of Internet Explorer seem like a fun outing at an amusement park.

So by saying that these tags in specific are what constitute "mobile development" is frankly, an insult to those who have done it. It's not just those. Heck, not even those would cover it, either. I haven't even talked about the low-level programming that some groups need to do.

Next, there's the idea of what this collective is set to achieve. It's pretty ambiguous to suggest that this group of people are then thrust together as one classification would really want to be in that classification. There are app developers who work exclusively on iOS and there are app developers that work exclusively on Android, and they didn't need to get insights from anyone else. Then, you have the poor mobile web developers who somehow got lumped in with all of this.

So what is this meant to be?

  • For native app designers?
  • For cross-platform app builders?
  • For mobile website developers?

Kinda impossible to have a clear grouping of these if the purpose for having all of this together isn't as...concise, per se, as a framework for example.

1
  • I came here to say mostly this same thing. I'm an iOS developer, and took a look at the Mobile Collective today, (first time I'd seen it) and said "No thank you!" I would probably find an iOS Collective useful.
    – livingtech
    Commented Oct 1, 2023 at 18:30
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The view from the outside looking in.

This feels like a case of artificial community creation. The scenario, as played out in my mind, is that there was a need felt for a new collective. Mobile development seems like a catchphrase in common use, so that's picked as the next target. Looking at it, for implementation, there was only a couple options, iOS or Android. Neither one was large enough to hold the umbrella for "mobile development" so both were selected. With both under one umbrella, the umbrella needed to be larger, so it could cover both. Now that the umbrella is larger, even with two poles holding it, the weight was too much. Needing something else to support the weight, a few of the common elements were selected. Perhaps, originally, there were other language tags included, but someone realized that too much non-mobile was being included. The final selection of Flutter and Dart seemed strong enough to work without pulling in too much extra.

I think the umbrella is too large, covering too much, and still doesn't have the support it needs to survive a day on the beach.

I've called it artificial community creation, because it seems SO is attempting to create a community were there is none. There are developers, I'm sure, who specialize in using their preferred language for developing mobile applications. Such also are likely to refer to themselves as "mobile developers." I don't think they have a sense of community with others who also carry that label; rather they have a sense of community with the language they use, and see "mobile" as a specialty therein.

I doubt there is a collection of, or even one, chat room on SO which is dedicated to mobile development that is also well populated and active. Other than a few hand-picked, perhaps contrived, tags from questions, there doesn't seem to be any sub-community of mobile developers to be served by a collective aimed at them.

Although it would be moderated out, I can see the topic of discussion most often gravitate to why iOS is better than Android, or why iOS development is so much harder than Android, and other debates with little of community value to it.

If a new collective is needed, which obviously isn't going to be a sponsored one, then look for an active sub-community which is not quite large enough, active enough, or specialized enough to qualify as a new site, yet which could benefit from one if it existed. Find the community and the need. Don't attempt to create the them. Creating the need, and then offering the solution might be a valid sales tactic. Not so much for finding a new collective.

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  • i mean... thus far it's just a flutter collective. so google has two collectives now.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 28, 2023 at 14:44
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Intent

The intent with Mobile Development is to create a community of practice, to bring people together as opposed to simply grouping content. That is the reason for the focus on Discussions and for the focused permissions of the RM role in the collective. In this collective, there is a reduced focus on the other content types.

It’s indeed challenging to define a community of practice with tags alone, but this is currently how collectives get defined and so these tags are the foundation. Similarly, at this time Discussions exists within collectives, and so a collective is necessary to move that experiment forward. 

In terms of the scope of this community of practice on Stack Overflow, perhaps Mobile Development is too broad and we’ll see what subsets of that might emerge and diverge as people start interacting. 

The types of content we’d expect to see in the Discussions space are technology comparisons and more general subjective content. Starball, your thoughts on those things, past and present, are well-stated. However, Discussions is an experiment with creating a separate space for that type of conversational content, rather than trying to make it work within the contribution interface and ruleset of Q&A.

Tag updates

and have been removed from the collective. It’s clear their inclusion introduces too much ambiguity. One intent of this post was to kick off conversation about what tags made the most sense for this collective, and that’s what’s happening. There was the suggestion of including , what is the sentiment around that? While it is broad, for Discussions there is a requirement to have at least one tag from the collective in order to post, and would work well for that purpose due to its broad nature.

3
  • 1
    ...so we're gonna allow broad, subjective subject matter on Stack Overflow now in the context of building a community around it, and that's...okay? Yes I recognize that this is trying to walk down the middle path when juxtaposed against Q&A, but you're still addressing an audience that's mostly hard-wired to how the traditional model of Q&A works.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 1, 2023 at 17:06
  • 2
    In the same vein of using the Q&A platform, it sure would've been nice to see this updated exclusively in the question with comments added on folks' answers to let them know that there's been a shift. If it's unwieldy to do so, then that's perhaps a valuable thing to fix with the platform?
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 1, 2023 at 17:08
  • Wouldn't it be quite obvious to include the mobile-development tag for the Mobile Development Collective. Though it's rarely used on Stackoverflow yet, and is all in all virginal yet, that's more a chance than a shortcoming, as that allows to raise the awareness and attention for our rapidly rising topic.
    – Krokomot
    Commented Nov 22, 2023 at 10:57
5

What was the process on deciding these tags made sense for this collective?

I get iOS and Android, they're two of very few tags that are specifically mobile... given they literally describe mobile devices, but flutter and dart are most certainly not limited to mobile, and they're obviously not the only solutions that can be used for mobile. Why is this one solution being put on a pedestal above the rest? Even if you decided to add, say, react native to the mix, is there significant overlap between devs that use react native and devs that use flutter? I'd imagine it to be quite small, consisting mostly of devs that used to use one and now use another.

It also seems quite shortsighted, or possibly simply not caring, to release this without an existing plan in place to deal with the fact that suddenly you're expecting a large percentage of the users spamming answers to only provide answers worthy of being recognized, given all of their answers moving forward will be.

You keep moving forward with this project, adding more and more collectives without fixing the problems they have under the guise of "experimentation." When will enough experimentation be enough for the problems with these systems to actually be addressed? Do you just not see these problems as problems?

  • Articles are generally low quality, consisting of primarily content directly copied from somewhere else with minimal to no improvements to tailor the content to SO (images of code, salutations, links to 3rd party sources for required information, and links to outside author profiles such as LinkedIn.) They can't be edited by anyone outside of the collective, and it appears as though people within the collective don't care enough to do so.
  • Recognized Members are given status symbols that they didn't earn through proving their ability to produce quality content; This is somewhat solved by just making everyone with a gold badge a recognized member in this new collective, but at that point aren't you just making an excuse for people to sign up and boost your numbers? Of course an active answerer will want to add a star next to their name to influence voters to vote on their posts. This creates a barrier making it harder for new users to reach the same levels.
  • Discussions, to be fair, is new and undercooked. But why can't they use many of the same systems that exist for Q&A? Discussions need editing, closure, sorting, searching, reviews, all things that have already been done for Q&A and for some reason you seem to be trying to reinvent the wheel here. Discussions are currently effectively Q&A except the comments on answers are given more visibility and there's no curation tools. It doesn't add anything new, at all, not even an additional level of nesting for discussions. In Q&A we have 1: question, 2: answer, 3: comment. In discussions we have 1: opening statement, 2: replies, 3: replies to replies. It's just a more confusing system that does the same thing with missing features.
1
  • "Of course an active answerer will want to add a star next to their name to influence voters to vote on their post" - some might. I know of several RMs who actually contribute less for fear of bias / asked for RM status to be removed.
    – QHarr
    Commented Sep 28, 2023 at 22:12
4

I primarily came here to share my dissatisfaction with lumping all "Mobile" topics together into a "collective". I don't see any added value, and I would trust a flutter developer to answer an iOS-platform-specific question far less than another iOS developer.

FWIW, unlike a bunch of other folks here, I like the idea of discussions. I've thought SO should allow open-ended questions basically from the start. (And have always been annoyed when they get closed.) So I find the idea of Collectives to be an interesting and useful one. But at present, there's no way I would want to join the general-purpose Mobile collective as it exists today.

This has been said elsewhere, but I'd recommend at the very least splitting the general "Mobile Collective" into two collectives:

  • iOS Collective (primary tag: iOS)
  • Android Collective (primary tag: Android)

I could also imagine adding a cross-platform mobile collective, but as someone not in that world, (and who wants pretty strongly to stay far away from it), I don't really know whether someone writing a Flutter app would also find questions related to React Native or LiveView Native useful. But I think it's a mistake to mix all those kinds of questions in with questions about the specific mobile APIs themselves.

One additional option might be to make a hierarchy for collectives. So you have a top-level Mobile container/folder, and inside it are the ones for iOS, Android, Flutter, etc. Maybe you could even browse their discussions in some kind of mixed-in way. But that shouldn't be the default! (I wouldn't want to use them in that way.)

One final suggestion. Somewhere in a clever database-query, stack-overflow clearly has the data on which tags are most often associated with each other. The only way I see this exposed at present is with a button/page for tag synonyms. (But I'll admit I haven't done too much digging on this topic.) Since it seems like the "Collective" feature is driven by tags, obviously, those synonyms should get added to the collective, at minimum. (For iOS these are iphone-os, apple-ios and ios-sdk.) But also, I think it would be neat to see a list of "tags suspected to be related" (or something like that) for each Collective. Maybe collective members could even vote on which tags get included somehow.

Finally, this is almost unrelated, but I find this introduction borderline insulting:

In case you’re new to Stack Overflow or want a refresher, collectives helps users find trusted answers faster, connect with subject matter experts from the community, and share knowledge around the technologies they use most.

Poor grammar aside, I've had my SO account for 15 years... I'm not a new user. I saw the "Mobile Collective" for the first time today and thought "When did they add this?" My next thought was to check for a post in Meta, and when I didn't immediately find a link to meta on the homepage I typed its address into my browser from memory. ...but I need a "refresher" to understand this 4-day old feature?

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