2

My attention was recently drawn to the existence of the tag.

This tag has been discussed 5 years ago, and deemed valid, but I think it no longer passes the criteria required to keep it on the site.

In fact, if we test that tag against the burnination criteria:

  1. Does it describe the contents of the questions to which it is applied? and is it unambiguous?

I'd say it doesn't. This tag still requires technology-specific tags such as a language or a concept the question is dealing with.

  1. Is the concept described even on-topic for the site?

No. Books are not a subject on SO.

  1. Does the tag add any meaningful information to the post?

I'd argue it doesn't. It does not matter where a piece of code or a problem comes from. A question should be self-contained, so the fact the problem came from a book is irrelevant.

  1. Does it mean the same thing in all common contexts?

Kinda, "It's related to this book", but that information is meaningless, see point 3.


Frankly, I think the entire tag adds no value to SO, and should be burninated.

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  • 17
    Burninghan-and-ritchate. Jul 26 at 12:23
  • 4
    Although I agree that the tag is unwanted due to the precedent it sets, #2 I am not in full agreement with. Programming books contain code, the tag was created for questions about said code apparently because it causes quite a few problems. The tag description though is really ambiguous and makes it seem like any and all question about the book is alright. Which is not exactly uncommon, unfortunately.
    – Gimby
    Jul 26 at 12:23
  • 3
    Good luck with that: Do we need [effective-c++]? Jul 26 at 12:27
  • 2
    Crap. I'm contradicting myself... I have a right to change my mind based on new information!
    – Gimby
    Jul 26 at 12:33
  • 7
    Examples of inappropriate questions with the offending tag, or other harm due to the tag, would help your case.
    – Caleb
    Jul 26 at 14:54
  • 5
    Is there a tag for the standard of the C language described in the book? If not, using this tag for that seems like a good usecase. That variation of the C langauge still has effects today, and who knows, maybe someone needs to get an old compiler to work or is asking about syntactic quirks.
    – MegaIng
    Jul 26 at 19:23
  • 4
    @MegaIng You make a good point. The standard would be a good tag. The book, not as much.
    – Cerbrus
    Jul 26 at 19:28
  • 2
    @Cerbrus Most tags are redundant when you're looking at a question. I can't think of the last time tags provided additional useful information about a question as I was reading it. IMO tags are mainly useful in that they categorize questions so that we all can manage the firehose that is Stack Overflow, and to that end the K&R tag is useful even if you yourself don't find it so.
    – Caleb
    Jul 26 at 20:09
  • 2
    @MegaIng IIRC from previous discussions, that is kr-c. Or, at least, it was. That seems to have gotten synonymized to the tag currently under discussion. Jul 27 at 2:41
  • 1
    @MegaIng There used to be a separate kr-c tag for the standard, which was subsumed into kernighan-and-ritchie a few years ago. See my answer below for some details.
    – dxiv
    Jul 27 at 5:04
  • 3
    @Cerbrus Allowing a tag about the standard that the book describes, but not a tag about the book itself, seems like hair-splitting to me. Jul 27 at 13:25
  • 2
    @EJoshuaS-StandwithUkraine While I am absolutely pro-kernighan-and-ritchie-tag, in all fairness I should draw attention to the fact that "K&R C" (a type of pre-ANSI C) refers to the C described in the 1st edition of K&R. The 2nd edition of K&R (which is usually the edition people have in mind when talking about "K&R"-the-book) describes ANSI-C (ie: C89/C90). Jul 27 at 13:57
  • 2
    @Cerbrus I don't have domain-specific knowledge in this area, but the C variant described in the book is apparently unique to that specific book (to the extent that that variant is named after the authors of the book). However, there are lots of sources discussing ecmascript-5. Jul 27 at 15:45
  • 2
    How is +22/-7 shaky consensus?
    – TheMaster
    Jul 27 at 17:03
  • 2
    The question is in the negative score now. kernighan-and-ritchie fans caught up I suppose.
    – machine_1
    Jul 27 at 19:57

5 Answers 5

26

The C Programming Language by Kernighan and Ritchie isn't just any book, it's the seminal work about C, and possibly the most influential book on computer programming in the history of the subject. Most programmers of a certain age are likely to have at least one copy of the book on their shelves even today. IMO the tag provides helpful context for a question about the book or code written in the K&R style, and so remains useful.

If there's concern that the tag seems permissive to the point that it allows or encourages off-topic questions, I think that the correct solution is to simply edit the tag description to narrow the tag's scope.

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  • 14
    How does the tag add information critical to the question? How is the fact that a question was inspired by that book, in any way, relevant?
    – Cerbrus
    Jul 26 at 14:55
  • In a perfect world I would agree, but in the one we occupy tag descriptions are not read at all. It is the tag name itself which would need to be changed to narrow the scope.
    – Gimby
    Jul 26 at 15:01
  • 6
    @Cerbrus Any information that's actually critical to a question should of course be part of the question itself. IMO tags are mainly an organizational tool that we use to help find interesting questions and filter answers. Tags like c and pointers don't tell me anything that's probably not in discernible from the question's text, but they do give me some immediate, helpful context for the question, and IMO that's also true for kernighan-and-ritchie.
    – Caleb
    Jul 26 at 15:07
  • 4
    I almost wrote a language-version answer. Thing is; to many, this book is the authoritative reference for the C language. There's been newer standard editions since that render it obsolete, but a fight between the published standard and the K&R book would have gone to the K&R book in 1990.
    – Joshua
    Jul 26 at 15:11
  • 5
    So whould we be tagging JavaScript questions with [MDN]? C# questions with [microsoft-learn]? Python questions with [python-docs]? What does it matter what the documentation source is?
    – Cerbrus
    Jul 26 at 18:56
  • 3
    Also, that the book beat the standard 33 years ago is hardly relevant nowadays...
    – Cerbrus
    Jul 26 at 19:04
  • 1
    "Most programmers of a certain age" I wonder what percentage of C programmers this subset makes up now? 10%?
    – TylerH
    Jul 26 at 19:11
  • 7
    @TylerH AFAIK K&R2 is still in print and is still in use. For example, MIT has an OpenCourseware course on C programming for which K&R2 is the recommended text. I'd expect that most people who actually work in C today would have a copy.
    – Caleb
    Jul 26 at 20:02
  • 1
    @Caleb I acknowledge that it is still in print and perhaps still highly popular as far as C books go. I'm only wondering how many C programmers actually have a copy of it. Programming book ownership has been in sharp decline across the industry for the last 20 years thanks to the internet. I agree that most C programmers (or any language's programmers) over a certain age (40+) will probably have this or whatever books on the language. But I also suspect that group is an increasingly small minority of the total pool of C programmers.
    – TylerH
    Jul 26 at 20:57
  • 1
    @TylerH and.. that group is highly unlikely to be asking questions about code samples in the book. (there's a total of 3 people people who've asked questions related to it this year, one of which was well received)
    – Kevin B
    Jul 26 at 20:58
  • @KevinB Wait, the argument here is that people ask questions about the book's examples? I thought it was just "but it's a really good C book". If it's the former, we don't need a tag for a specific book. Burninate away.
    – TylerH
    Jul 26 at 21:20
  • 4
    I'm an iOS programmer. Objective-C is C and both are still important languages for iOS programmers to understand, even if they work entirely in Swift, because behind the scenes their code is talking to Cocoa / Objective-C and because some calls are actually C calls. K&R is still the best handbook for finding out about C. PS I am over 40. Also over 50. Also over 60. Also over 65. And I approved this message.
    – matt
    Jul 27 at 0:34
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    @matt see my comment about MDN and other (online) handbooks. Why does the book need a tag. It's a reference source. It's not "A technology".
    – Cerbrus
    Jul 27 at 6:26
  • 1
    @Cerbrus My book (on iOS programming) is not "a technology" either, but there have often been questions specifically about things that it says and why it says them in the way it says them (which, when I notice them, I myself have answered). I'm not saying there should be a tag for my book (though I'd be honored if there were one), but a book can be the key area of a question.
    – matt
    Aug 27 at 14:08
17

[tl;dr] The tag should most definitely be kept, though the description of the tag could be updated to make it more clear that it now refers to both the books, and the K&R C language (pre-)standard. The latter is still relevant, and will remain so for as long as legacy K&R C code still lurks somewhere, and developers still exist tasked with reading/maintaining/rewriting it.

For background, it used to be that SO had separate tags knr/kernighan-and-ritchie and kr-c for the book vs. the pre-standard C language. Then, back in 2014, there was this answer proposing to merge them.

In my opinion, the tags , and should be merged into a single tag (whichever is deemed more appropriate).

Basically, there should be only a single tag that covers pre-standard C (including K&R book). If it's about standardized C then should be used. If the question is about specific standard of C then the respective tag (, or ) can be used alongside .

Another 4 years later, they were all merged under kernighan-and-ritchie, per this comment in 2018 under the same answer.

Implemented as described in this answer, after 3 top users of that tag (OP, Answerer and @Lundin) have agreed to the same.

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  • 5
    IMO we don't need a tag for the book itself. I'd support using the tag for K&R C only or renaming the tag to kr-c and then doing a retag. As it is currently the tag is used for questions about examples in that book which seems to set a precedent, we'd end up with too many tags if we allowed tags for each popular programming book in existence. Jul 27 at 5:22
  • 4
    @AbdulAzizBarkat The tag is no longer about the book itself, and hasn't been for the past 5 years. That's actually the point I was making. As for renaming the tag, that can be put up for discussion, but it would be a different question than the one asked by the OP here.
    – dxiv
    Jul 27 at 5:45
  • 1
    Well then, I think there's a strong case for some of these merges to be undone...
    – Cerbrus
    Jul 27 at 6:25
  • 3
    @Cerbrus Not sure I follow this. Are you proposing that the tags be unmerged for knr the book vs. kr-c the language, then burninate knr but keep kr-c? Sorry, but I don't see what purpose that would serve. Or maybe I misunderstand. Anyway, the right place for you to clarify what's really being asked is an edit to the original question, not comments under a random answer.
    – dxiv
    Jul 27 at 6:39
  • Well, no, an edit to the question would be wrong, this would be a new question. My point is that the book itself is irrelevant as a tag, so I'd only keep kr-c.
    – Cerbrus
    Jul 27 at 6:58
  • 3
    @Cerbrus There is no kr-c to "keep". You realize of course that a new question would only make sense if this proposal you put forward here got roundly rejected. Otherwise, once the only remaining kr tag was (hypothetically) deleted, there would be no tag left to restore under a kr-c name. Again, the current kernighan-and-ritchie tag is not about the book alone, but also about the language standard, even though the tag description may not adequately reflect that. But that's repeating what I wrote in my answer already,
    – dxiv
    Jul 27 at 7:40
  • Keep, replace, semantics. Maybe the tag should just be renamed. I do understand that that would mean no burnination. Fine by me.
    – Cerbrus
    Jul 27 at 7:58
9

A tag about a book doesn't make much sense. A tag about a language defined in that book does.

Merging and seems to be a mistake in hindsight. I propose to remove the book from the description and re-focus the tag on pre-ANSI C.

We still need a tag to differentiate KnR C from ANSI C (aka "just C").

Also, this "KnR C" tag should be treated the same way is: as mutually exclusive with tag (unless the question is about differences between the two).

2
  • This is an alternative I can completely get behind!
    – Cerbrus
    Jul 27 at 12:00
  • 3
    Indeed. Just as long as we don't have tags about books. Books represent knowledge, knowledge is valuable. The fact that a specific book holds it is just completely irrelevant and represents a red herring for enthusiastic people who want to discuss their own favourite book.
    – Gimby
    Jul 27 at 15:17
-3

In my opinion, this does uniquely identify a topic that's unique to programming. The book is solely about C and no one other than a programmer would read that book, so it couldn't possibly refer to anything other than a programming topic.

I also don't agree that books are intrinsically off-topic, as long as they're programming topics related to programming books. (If you were asking about details purely related to the book itself, such as publication history or information about the authors, and not about programming, the question would probably be a better fit for Literature Stack Exchange).

It does not matter where a piece of code or a problem comes from. A question should be self-contained, so the fact the problem came from a book is irrelevant.

I disagree. I think that knowing that a question is pertaining to a specific book provides important context. When I'm asking questions, if my confusion is based on a book I was using for self-study, I'll usually specify which book I was reading (and, if relevant, which exercise I was attempting when I got stuck). This often helps answerers understand the motivation and context for the question better, and in some cases, answerers have even read the same book. I suppose we don't strictly need a tag in order to be able to do that, but that doesn't mean that the tag isn't providing context.

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    Whatever context that book gives should be in the question itself. Questions (and answers) shouldn't rely on outside sources.
    – Cerbrus
    Jul 27 at 13:28
  • 2
    @Cerbrus That is true for literally every tag. Tags shouldn't add any information to a question if you take the full body text into consideration. It's just about being able to filter and search questions.
    – MegaIng
    Jul 27 at 16:20
  • Yet questions tagged with this tag require direct quotes from the book for context @MegaIng. Leaving out these quotes would leave out critical context. So why tag it, if you're going to have to quote (and this attribute) the book, any way.
    – Cerbrus
    Jul 27 at 16:42
  • @MegaIng I am fiercely pro-K&R-tag, but I would like to point out an exception to what you wrote: The name of the programming language is considered redundant in the question title and body and can simply be supplied via (only) a tag. Jul 27 at 18:55
  • 1
    @Cerbrus By that logic, why use any tags at all? For example, if the body of a question needs to make it clear that the question is, for example, about C, why even bother having a C tag? Jul 27 at 18:55
  • 4
    How is the book relevant, though? To be on-topic a question about the book would need to be about a code snippet from the book... so at that point, just share the code snippet and say you got it from that book. Why do you need a tag other than C (or, if this is about a different version of C, a tag other than "pre-ANSI C" or whatever it is)? And just mention that it's from that book in the body of the question. This way people can also ask questions in the tag about the real relevant thing: pre-ANSI C, even if they aren't asking about something from that book.
    – TylerH
    Jul 27 at 19:48
-8

I think it should stay on the list because many of us grew up on Kernighan and Ritchie, and still use it in our searches. Why remove a category just because no one uses it anymore? Unless you think we have too many categories. In that case I would agree

6
  • That's not what tags are for. I grew up with windows live mail. I still use it on a daily basis. Why shouldn't that have a tag?
    – Cerbrus
    Jul 27 at 6:20
  • 3
    @Cerbrus Windows Live Mail doesn't appear to have much relevance to programming, but it does have its own tag over at SuperUser: superuser.com/questions/tagged/windows-live-mail Obviously, the important factor isn't whether anybody "grew up on" either K&R or Live Mail, but whether it denotes a topic that people are interested in or find useful.
    – Caleb
    Jul 27 at 14:08
  • We're not talking about Super User, here...
    – Cerbrus
    Jul 27 at 14:11
  • 4
    @Cerbrus You asked "why wouldn't [Windows Live Mail] have a tag?" The answer is that, unlike K&R, WLM shouldn't because it's not programming-related. But in a context where questions related to WLM are on topic, WLM perhaps should have a tag, and as it turns out it does.
    – Caleb
    Jul 27 at 14:15
  • No, it was a comment on "because many of us grew up on <tag>". That's not a reason to have a tag. You're straw-manning my argument here. Meanwhile, you're even agreeing with me that the tag shouldn't exist because it's not a technology. It's a book.
    – Cerbrus
    Jul 27 at 14:17
  • 4
    @Cerbrus Right, I addressed that directly in pointing out that "grew up on" isn't reason for creating a tag, but being a relevant topic is. And I very obviously don't agree with your idea that the K&R tag should be eliminated, so please don't misrepresent what I've said.
    – Caleb
    Jul 27 at 14:44

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