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Today, the PHP Collective is launching on Stack Overflow.

Why PHP?

After launching the R Language Collective earlier this year, we wanted to launch another collective focused on a specific language. PHP made sense given that, as with R, there is a strong sense of subcommunity around PHP and an existing community on Stack Overflow already. We’d like to involve users who are active in the PHP chat room as well as on Q&A, and determine how the current and future features of collectives can make the community and content stronger and more effective.

There are a few potential discussion topics to dive into now. Please feel free to respond to any of these prompts, or to suggest others. Discussions here could be spun off into standalone questions as needed. (Please use the tag for any new questions specifically about this collective.)

Tags and scope

The collective is currently defined by the single tag .

Are there other tags on Stack Overflow that are exclusively related to PHP and should be included? Even if including them might seem redundant (since questions would likely also be tagged with ), it’s worth listing them and gathering the community’s thoughts together.

The focus brought by a collective brings an opportunity to assess related tags and have conversations about optimizing them.

Content needs and community concerns

What are potential projects that the PHP collective members might collaborate on to improve the experience for both askers and readers of PHP questions? Can any resources be improved to reduce duplicate questions and help askers avoid posting off-topic questions?

If you’re active in the tags or in the broader PHP community on Stack Overflow, such as the PHP chat room, and have found yourself wishing for improvements in some area, post your thoughts about what the ideal scenario might be. Even if it seems unrealistic, often that can be a great starting point for ideation and meaningful change.

Recognized Members

Recognized Member (or “RM”) is the user role specific to Collectives that has additional privileges, most notably to designate specific answers as “recommended” and to oversee the review and publication of articles. It is intended for those who would be considered subject matter experts in the collective’s topic, or perhaps in some specific portion of the topic. While we generally see the RM group as the community leaders within each of these collectives, it’s up to the community to decide how the role operates in that regard.

The Recognized Member role in the PHP Collective will be open to any user with a gold or silver badge in the tag, and who has not been suspended in the past 12 months. Anyone who qualifies can express their interest in a comment or answer on this post. Those interested are also welcome to inquire about the RM role via the contact form if they feel more comfortable that way.

However, the Recognized Member role is not required to be part of helping define how the collective operates. The first step in being involved is participating in the discussion on this post!

General questions

The PHP Collective is intended as a space for a subcommunity to grow and thrive in ways that make sense for this area of practice. Community members well-versed in all things PHP are best suited to determine how to leverage the current features of the collective and to identify the areas that could most benefit from further development.

What questions do you have about the PHP Collective? What opportunities or challenges do you see ahead?

Please note: the answers and discussion here are intended to be specific to the PHP Collective. If you have thoughts or feedback about collectives in general, please share those on this post.

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    I'm not interested in collectives or what, but because I watch this tag, a SHOWY rectangle appeared on the right sidebar today and told me about this event. I just want to know if this rectangle will always be there? Are there any settings that can remove it?
    – shingo
    Commented Jul 12, 2023 at 4:08
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    @shingo only adblock/userscripts
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jul 12, 2023 at 4:14
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    "What are potential projects [...] to improve the experience for both askers and readers of PHP questions?" => Why not include Answerers as well...?
    – chivracq
    Commented Jul 12, 2023 at 14:57
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    @chivracq projects could include things tag cleanup (finding questions that are mistagged and fixing them), updating tag wikis (I think the php one is pretty robust but there may be related ones that need work), and coming up with strategies to keep the content healthy (such as introducing a tag warning for a commonly misused tag, etc).
    – Sasha StaffMod
    Commented Jul 14, 2023 at 19:51
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    @chivracq we hope the collective can improve the experience for everyone who works with PHP on SO, but we specifically mentioned askers and readers because as people searching for information to solve their problems they may need more support than those providing information. That said, if you have ideas on how to improve things for question answerers we would love to hear them!
    – Sasha StaffMod
    Commented Jul 14, 2023 at 19:57

8 Answers 8

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The collective is currently defined by the single tag php.

Are there other tags on Stack Overflow that are exclusively related to PHP and should be included?

Statements and questions like these signal to me that you have no idea why the community needs a collective for PHP. Why would you create a collective before you even know the extent of it? I see no reason given other than «we have PHP in our community». What’s the reason just having tags for the topic isn’t enough?

Seeking feedback? Great! But why not delay the creation of the collective until after you actually know more about it? I’m left wondering: what drives this need for a PHP collective? Is it for marketing purposes? I don’t know, and it doesn’t seem like you do either. I’m curious as to what specifically led you to believe that there needs to be a collective for PHP, other than «sense of subcommunity». What specifically will the existence of such a collective make to PHP related subjects on Stack Overflow, and how will this impact the rest of the network?

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I potentially see two tags:

  1. - This is a PHP library (OOP) and a utility to run tests against PHP code. It is maintained and developed aligned with PHP core development and implements the phpt protocol which is also used for PHP core (albeit IIRC not from phpunit, just noting).

  2. - Composer is a PHP dependency manager (user-land) now for many years. Albeit it does not cover the whole ecosystem any longer, it has created a new one and IMHO it has done this quite well. And even while using it introduces many risks, many PHP projects rely on it nowadays for their dependencies, including during development (or, shrug, production). (most PHP projects today are Composer projects and for me as a PHP developer it is a mystery why that tag is not just , but I've never looked)

In general the tags in the PHP Q&A have the problem that users are tagging for example Laravel or WordPress questions with or , albeit those are technically unrelated to the question. But that is a different problem with how Stack Overflow organizes the data (begging for contributions, and there you have them).

This last remark is only a comment. The future has to tell whether or not siloing within a collective adds to the burden or is of help. I'm ok with the experiment.

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    "[...] have the problem that users are tagging for example Laravel [...]" - If a question tagged laravel has PHP code in it (which, being a PHP framework, 95% of them do), I generally edit it to include a the php tag for a couple reasons. 1) Visibility. Many people who know PHP can answer Laravel questions; a lot of them are basic syntax issues or logical approach questions. If a user doesn't know Laravel, they can ignore that tag. 2) Syntax Highlighting. Yes, this can be done via edits to include lang-php, or php next to code blocks, but the php tag does this automatically.
    – Tim Lewis
    Commented Jul 12, 2023 at 14:29
  • I'd add a link for tags you are suggesting showing questions tagged with them but not PHP: stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/phpunit+-php Commented Jul 13, 2023 at 2:02
  • @TimLewis: Thanks for the feedback, and yes, for the code-blocks I've completely forgotten, only had visibility in mind as the reason why people are adding it. So thanks for the reminder, its easy to not see the wider picture as so often.
    – hakre
    Commented Jul 13, 2023 at 5:48
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    No problem! I've seen a couple Laravel posts where the php tag was edited out, even though there is still PHP code in it, but the question is more about other things, like .htaccess, nginx/apache stuff, etc. There's definitely some validity for those removals, and ultimately there's always going to be a bit of a grey area with this, but just wanted to include my reasoning as someone who contributes to that "problem" (and the misuse of tags can be a problem, so I don't disagree completely with your original statement 😅). Cheers!
    – Tim Lewis
    Commented Jul 13, 2023 at 14:31
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    This is a very interesting conversation. I wonder if coming up with some sort of guidance or best practices around how to use php and related tags in these kinds of "grey area" questions could be a worthwhile project for the collective to take on?
    – Sasha StaffMod
    Commented Jul 14, 2023 at 20:02
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    @Sasha Sorry, missed this. It is an interesting topic, especially seeing some of the edits to questions recently (by hakre and others) adding or removing the php tag. My 2¢ is that it ultimately is a case-by-case situation; many laravel-tagged questions don't need the php tag, as they end up as SQL, JS or configuration (.htaccess, nginx, apache, etc.) questions. I don't think I've ever removed php from laravel questions, since it is a PHP framework, but I can understand the reasoning why it would be in some cases. As long as we don't get in tag wars, it's a minor thing. 🙂
    – Tim Lewis
    Commented Jul 17, 2023 at 20:33
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Here is a SEDE query giving the list of co-occurring tags with php along with some stats: https://data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/1717890/total-count-of-co-occuring-tags-with-a-target-tag?TargetTag=php

You would add or to the collective, but obviously not .

enter image description here

p.s. Thank you, flower!

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Here are some categories of tags that are always PHP related:

  • Software that is exclusively PHP, such as laravel, codeigniter
  • Related sub-tags such as laravel-5, codeigniter-helpers
  • PHP tools such as phpcodesniffer, phpstorm
  • Community and standards related tags such as php-fig, psr-1
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  • Laravel, CodeIgniter, Zend, Symfony, CakePHP, Fat-Free, and those are just frameworks. Thé list will be massive.
    – miken32
    Commented Jul 14, 2023 at 2:21
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    @miken32 have you noticed when people ask questions related to these frameworks, do they also tend to tag PHP? We want to avoid accidentally excluding relevant questions from the collective, but we could potentially take on a tag cleanup project to address this.
    – Sasha StaffMod
    Commented Jul 14, 2023 at 20:10
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    @Sasha for Laravel, which I primarily deal with, most of the questions are tagged with PHP. Sometimes php isn't relevant to the question, but those cases are definitely a small minority.
    – miken32
    Commented Jul 14, 2023 at 20:53
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    @Sasha They probably add that tag because the question contains PHP code and not, for example, JavaScript code. It happens with Drupal questions too. Even if the question shows PHP code, I am not sure somebody who just knows PHP is able to answer to Drupal questions, though, when the question is really a question about code to use with Drupal.
    – avpaderno
    Commented Jul 17, 2023 at 13:27
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    As counter example, stackoverflow.com/questions/76722601/… is tagged php and lavarel, but the question is not about PHP.
    – avpaderno
    Commented Jul 19, 2023 at 14:59
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I can't imagine a better suited group of users to combat the disgusting amount of content redundancy on Stack Overflow.

Cooperative, democratic, topic-scoped curation

We can all agree that we don't actually need 95 sign posts for a narrow problem, right?

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Tags like php-8 php-8.2 php-7 ... are not all co-tagged with php which is ... for a reason? Anyway, I thought I'd mention the obvious.

TLDR:

I feel this collective would better serve the PHP language and its core extensions without branching to include frameworks and related tags. If a tag is big enough then it should have its own collective.

There's a lot to cover just under the php tag alone.

You know, for me, to find a question about PHP I need to scroll through doctrine-orm zend-framework2 laravel-cashier amazon-web-services facebook-php-sdk, none of which I am interested in or have any knowledge at all of. Is it just me?

I can feel the systemantics brewing.

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  • Interesting point. I feel that often an asker will add a framework tag for context, and it is the answerers who understand what the best tags would have been. So a question about a framework is often answered with "You should use this language feature / core function". Therefore I think that trying to focus the collective on the language itself based on tags would exclude posts like that.
    – Liam
    Commented Jul 14, 2023 at 14:53
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    Do you think it would make sense for the collective to take on a project of systematically retagging questions that are missing the PHP tag? We would have to agree on where it does and doesn't belong of course, but that could help to avoid excluding content that really should be included.
    – Sasha StaffMod
    Commented Jul 14, 2023 at 20:19
  • I think retagging question that include PHP is useful somewhat? I don't know how search engine will react to it, but mostly It's useful in someway. If there are experience for contribution point, it seems tangible tho? Commented Jul 15, 2023 at 5:08
  • curious, I tried to search for [php] and couldn't find any of the version tags. so i tried just php and the search automatically makes it a tag search (ie changes the search to [php]). but on the collective side of things, i don't think the collective should be "defined" by framework tabs. any answer that includes a PHP language feature would then link to PHP and the collective.if that makes sense, or is gramatically correct, i don't like to include the overhead of a spell-checker or grammar thingy
    – yarns
    Commented Jul 15, 2023 at 8:30
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    Oh I misunderstood one aspect of collectives and that is the trusted answers. If an answer to a php framework question is by a representative of the collective then I think we should mark it as a trusted answer by the collective. I'm not sure how that ties into the whole tag thing though
    – yarns
    Commented Jul 15, 2023 at 8:47
  • You can still filter questions by tags. I find the suggestion of creating collectives for every "big" tag a bit shortsighted. Commented Jul 16, 2023 at 18:44
  • @Sasha Can a tag belong to more than one collective, or can it be a member of at most a single collective? Commented Jul 21, 2023 at 19:26
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    @chivracq (Curious that you should mention that, seeing as your own comments have so much annoying non-standard formatting and abbreviations.)
    – tripleee
    Commented Jul 22, 2023 at 8:05
  • @tripleee Yeah well..., thanks for the Ping anyway... I've retracted my DV, thanks to Peter's Edit. // Interesting last sentence btw, about "Systemantics", I didn't know the term, I only understood its meaning after reading the Article on 'Wikipedia'. (Sbd might want to add the Link to the Answer...)
    – chivracq
    Commented Jul 22, 2023 at 12:03
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    @AndreasdetestsAIhype at this time we don't have any tags that are in multiple collectives, and I think that is something we would generally want to avoid. That said a question can be in multiple collectives if it has a tag from each.
    – Sasha StaffMod
    Commented Jul 26, 2023 at 13:36
  • @Sasha So what do you do once a language specific framework tag (that’s part of a language-specific collective), suddenly becomes relevant at great scale outside the scope of the collective it belongs to? For instance, if you had an Objective-C collective in 2014. Commented Jul 26, 2023 at 18:17
  • @AndreasismovingtoCodidact I'm not sure what you mean. How would Objective-C become a tag that is relevant at great scale out side of the scope of its collective?
    – yarns
    Commented Aug 14, 2023 at 18:08
  • I understand now, because swift shares frameworks with objc? I like the idea sasha had in another comment to include a prefix like php-extension-* so for your example there would be objc-extension-* and swift-extension-* which will reference the 'same' extension but in their language specific context.
    – yarns
    Commented Aug 14, 2023 at 18:47
  • @yarns Yes, Apple frameworks available in both languages is something I had in mind when mentioning Objective-C. The suggested solution, by using tags including both the framework, and the language, is a bad solution. We already have separate tags, so you'd already tag the questions by using the separate ones. That said, the solutions in both languages, are nearly identical. There is no reason to have different questions for them. Same thing with GLFW or SDL, for instance. I don't care if the solution I get, is in C, C++ or Java. It's the same anyway. Commented Aug 14, 2023 at 18:50
  • @yarns Unless, of course, that the solution uses some specific constructs only available in a single language. In that case, tag accordingly. Commented Aug 14, 2023 at 18:51
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What is the point of adding a "recommended" label on the only visible answer (with a >100 score, mind you) on the page???

What to do with mysqli problems? Errors like mysqli_fetch_array(): Argument #1 must be of type mysqli_result and such

Are we just adding noise with recommendations? Are recommendations arbitrarily sprinkled around as a non-bounty super-thanks from badgers? What is the criteria? What is the letter of the law and what is the spirit of the law?

More generally, is it not obvious that the authors of non-recommended answers will feel put down that an SME has not deemed their answer worthy? Where is the value? We already have votes and green ticks.

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    This potentially should be its own meta post. Honestly, I still have a hard time decide what needs to be recommended, what should not be, and what can but does not need to be recommended. Although it will be different for each collective, a general discussion around this subject would be beneficial. Where's the value? e.g., older posts where the most upvoted or accepted answers are outdated. Keep in mind that usually the first recoms are experimental. Commented Jul 25, 2023 at 16:07
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    And honestly, if you feel bad about for "authors of non-recommended answers", what do you think about adding a flair on each and every answer by RMs? I detest that: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/424338/… Commented Jul 25, 2023 at 16:10
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    @M--ßţřịƙïñĝ I have read your post (prior to writing my answer) and fully agree. About my answer here, I thought the reason for adding the trending sort option was to combat the time-weighted dominance of older posts over newer posts. If there is no clear rule on in/appropriate recommendations, then it too easily allows SMEs to enforce their lone opinion on the perceived correctness/legitimacy of specific answers. Shouldn't such a feature lean toward democratic tooling (if it is needed at all)? Commented Jul 25, 2023 at 20:52
  • We brought that up early on, but the discussion died out really quick (see the beginning of this chatroom, only needs a couple of scrolls: chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/252171/r-language-collective). I didn't post on MSO because I knew I'd get answers mostly focused on why we need this in the first place (which I agree to some extent, but as I said, outdated answers are a great use-case for this feature). Now that we have it, a discussion focused on how to use it in a "safe and efficient" manner seems warranted (of course there will be differences among collectives). Commented Jul 25, 2023 at 21:13
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    Recognized Members use their judgement to determine if an answer should be recommended, there is no set rule about it. However, its possible to develop guidelines about when answers should be recommended in a particular collective, if that is preferred by the community. If you have ideas about what would make sense for PHP feel free to add them here.
    – Sasha StaffMod
    Commented Jul 26, 2023 at 14:13
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Other tags to include:

  1. - "PECL is a repository for PHP Extensions, providing a directory of all known extensions and hosting facilities for downloading and development of PHP extensions." https://pecl.php.net/

  2. - "PEAR is a repository of PHP software code, designed to offer some functionality not built into PHP core." https://pear.php.net/

While neither are part of the PHP.net engine source, they both are exclusively tied to the PHP project itself.

Along these same lines:

  • - "Xdebug is a PHP extension with developing aids, a profiler, an interactive debugging, and a code coverage information gatherer."

  • - "Intl is a PHP extension which give ability to use Unicode, software internationalization (I18N) and globalization (G11N) from the ICU library."

As a side note, is misapplied to questions covering the Intl class in Dart and Javascript. It may need to be clarified.

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    Thanks for these suggestions! When you say the intl tag needs to be clarified, what are you thinking? Should there be separate tags for the PHP context versus the Dart and Javascript context? Or perhaps a tag warning that explains when to use it and when not?
    – Sasha StaffMod
    Commented Jul 19, 2023 at 20:30
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    @Sasha Separate tags. I'd label all of those tags as php-extension-* or *-php-extension to be clear what they are. E.g., php-extension-intl or xdebug-extension-intl.
    – bishop
    Commented Jul 19, 2023 at 20:39

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