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I just failed this review, but I don't understand why. The question was shown without comments:

https://stackoverflow.com/review/first-questions/34632397

I selected to provide "Feedback", because the question itself includes an answer and no real question was asked. So my proposed action would be to ask what the question is.

What would the desired review action be?

The discussion seems to point towards habits of the tag community. This leads to an interesting consideration for the audit system: are people expected to divine unwritten arcane "rules" when evaluating posts?

The same post without the upvotes would be considered bad under any other tag because it doesn't pose a question. The "system" determined it to be "good" because it got upvotes, but that simply acts as a feedback loop of objectively bad questions being allowed under .

Very black and white: as a newbie reviewer I could (temporarily) lose my reviewing privileges because is holding itself to low standards and there is no way for me to know that these arcane rules exist.

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  • 6
    Oddly, the user does have an answer on that post, but they completely omit their "solution". Is this some kind of [r] oddity?
    – Thom A
    Jul 3 at 9:31
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    So just to be clear: a question without an actual question is OK? There was no question asked: it described a task with two solutions in the original post. I'm just very confused how a question can be "Good" if there is no question to begin with...
    – StephanT
    Jul 3 at 9:43
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    Judging by the fact that OP included a benchmark, they were probably looking for a more optimal solution (shorter/faster). They have provided some solution themselves, but it would likely be obvious to R users that this solution can be improved. Admittedly, it would have been better of OP said "a naive" or "a sub-optimal" solution. Jul 3 at 9:45
  • 80
    A question without an actual question is not OK. I stopped doing reviews because this "STOP and listen" on bogus assessments based on some automated selection has completely demotivated me to work on any review queues.
    – trincot
    Jul 3 at 11:21
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    No, @M--ßţřịƙïñĝ, that is not how it works at all. You and the other members of r do not get to pretend that the rules that apply to everyone else, do not apply to you. I do believe that it is time for me to break my curation strike for r specifically, and impose some order on a tag that has very obviously come to believe it is a law unto itself.
    – Ian Kemp
    Jul 3 at 14:43
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    @M--ßţřịƙïñĝ a post can be closable before a minor edit and not after.
    – Kevin B
    Jul 3 at 14:57
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    The question, as it was before, read "How do I achieve foo? Here is my solution to achieve foo." That isn't how questions on Stack Overflow work, it should just be "How do I achieve foo?" Then there should be a separate answer "You can achieve foo by doing bar. Code example." The question has now been changed to "I have been able to achieve foo by doing bar, however, it's not as performant as I'd like. What other methods can I use? This is my attempt doing bar Code Example." That is on-topic but the prior revision posted was not good as it was a Q&A in a Q; as written it should have been 2 posts.
    – Thom A
    Jul 3 at 15:08
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    @IanKemp I also don't appreciate your tone. If you have evidence of abuse in r either flag it for mods or bring it up on meta. No one gets to point fingers and make baseless accusations.
    – M--
    Jul 3 at 15:18
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    I still don't understand why people in the R tag see this as such a stellar addition to the KB. Is this particular action something people routinely struggle with? is it a common need? or is it more of a fun interviewer challenge. To me it just looks like a data processing task specific to one user's needs that's unlikely to be directly relevant to someone else... but i'm not part of the R community, so, :shrug: I'd assume people just upvoted it because they found it fun to answer.
    – Kevin B
    Jul 3 at 15:18
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    The title is the question, it is implied "Find the first of the last 1's sequence", I read it as "how do I find the first of the last 1's sequence?". In the body of the post they say "verbose" meaning "not optimal".
    – zx8754
    Jul 3 at 21:06
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    And therein lies the problem. Some are injecting their own interpretation and meaning into a post's title where there is none. "Find the first of the last 1's sequence" is an imperative statement. It's beyond me how anyone could read a statement like this and think it's interrogative at all. If a post's title isn't directly a question, then I fully expect to see a question of some form in the post's body. I agree with Ian, users in specific tags can't make up their own rules and get upset when the rest of the community disagrees and holds the posts to the same site standards.
    – Drew Reese
    Jul 3 at 23:14
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    @justhalf If it weren't for the strike, that would be a good reason to flag for moderator attention. Bountying a question just to prevent closure is an abuse of the system. Generally, moderators will rescind the bounty and close it. I don't know if it is an abuse that results in a suspension or a ban, but maybe it should. Jul 4 at 12:24
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    "objectively bad": At first revision, the question fits most of stackoverflow.com/help/how-to-ask (maybe not the "How to" missing in the title): It introduce the problem, gives expected output, and show research with what they done. I find it harsh to qualify it as objectively bad by in that regard.
    – Tensibai
    Jul 5 at 10:21
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    Is @IanKemp's opinion that "r ... has very obviously come to believe it is a law unto itself" wide-spread? I find that notion offensive (since I participate heavily in that tag), that's just me, but ... I also find it insensitive to the notion that the Stack community is full of "sub-cultures". There are many differences between groups of non-overlapping users, and on my infrequent jaunt into far-distant-tags (to me), I realize the expectations are often slightly different. Where is there any justification of this claim that r is more different (and in a bad way) than any other tag?
    – r2evans
    Jul 10 at 12:34
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    @IanKemp Contrary to what this discussion seems to imply the rules for the r tag aren’t in principle different from those of the rest of Stack Overflow. The picture of lawlessness that your comment and answer are painting is wholly inaccurate. It may be based on a simple misunderstanding. As an ancient contributor to the wider Stack Overflow I can categorically state that the r tag has no specific, systemic moderation issues. If you believe otherwise the onus would be on you to demonstrate the opposite. Good luck. Jul 10 at 12:41

2 Answers 2

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You have fallen afoul of two things:

  • the system that chooses questions for reviews operates solely on heuristics, particularly the number of upvotes a question has. There is no human feedback/selection into this system, apart from the ability to remove an unsuitable question, which almost always only happens after the fact.
  • the bar for quality on Stack Overflow has continued to fall to the point that questions that are very obviously not, answers that are very obviously not, and anything in between that is quite obviously garbage, is not only not removed, but accepted. This is exacerbated by orders from Stack Exchange Inc. that preclude the removal of content that is similarly rubbish.

The end result is that there are far more rubbish questions that are highly upvoted, so the review system naturally ends up choosing more of said questions.

You did the right thing. A "question" that fails to ask anything does not belong here. It is the asker's responsibility to ensure they ask a question that can be unambiguously answered, not anyone else's responsibility to attempt to divine meaning from the tea-leaves that said asker has left there.

So, what can you do about this? Literally nothing. That's one of the reasons why, after voluntarily curating this site for years via the review queues, I no longer bother, because the system is so broken that it makes curating far more of a thankless chore than it should be.

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    "A "question" that fails to ask anything does not belong here." - I mainly follow R tag, and by this rule, ~60-70% would fail. What is a question by your definition? Is it a sentence with "?" mark at the end or is it a statement "do this", "do this better". To me questions are implied, there is no need for a question sentence. OP has a solution, and wondering if there are better/correct way of doing it - this is the question.
    – zx8754
    Jul 3 at 21:01
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    But that was never asked, @zx8754 . It was, maybe implied by their first revision, but the OP then removed that very vague implication, making the question completely questionless. Stack Overflow is for specific questions, not vaguely implied/completely omitted questions.
    – Thom A
    Jul 3 at 21:14
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    @ThomA be honest, how can you not "read" the question from that post? Title: "do this", question body: "I have a verbose solution", meaning "not the best", so you read it as "how do I do this better?"
    – zx8754
    Jul 3 at 21:18
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    The OP removed the verbose, as I have stated several times, @zx8754 . How else can I read a title "How do I do this,m" with a post that states "the solution is this" than the OP doesn't understand a Q&A format.
    – Thom A
    Jul 3 at 21:25
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    For reference, this is the revision that I saw when this question (on meta) was posted, and that was also the revision the OP saw in the review, @zx8754 . It very clearly appears as a title with a question, and a question that's isnt a question but an answer.
    – Thom A
    Jul 3 at 21:29
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    The point is, as high rep users we have privileges, most instead of improving and editing, prefer to downvote and close. That post has 10 answers, they didn't struggle to "read" the question. Even after edits, if you can see 10 answers, there must have been a question, don't you think? Maybe go and rollback instead of closevote and downvote.
    – zx8754
    Jul 3 at 21:32
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    And as high rep users we should be closing unclear questions until such time they are clear, which is why I voted to close it; it wasn't clear @zx8754 . That a badly written unclear question has 10 answers doesn't make it a well written clear question, it still badly written and unclear. Those answers (I'm not an SME in [r] so impossible for me to know) could be on very different problems because the question is unclear; I've seen that happens in the tags I am familiar with, so I wouldn't not be surprised. As for downvotes I'm not sure where I said I did; I'd not voted other to close.
    – Thom A
    Jul 3 at 21:43
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    @zx8754 I often downvote and close many low quality posts, and move on. IF the post looks close to being salvageable with some minor edits by the OP then I may also leave a comment on what could/should be improved, and move on. Life is too short to spend training others how to clearly communicate their needs if they don't want to learn. If they put in minimal effort in posting, it's likely to be met with minimal effort to help.
    – Drew Reese
    Jul 3 at 22:40
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    @zx8754 Re "To me questions are implied, there is no need for a question sentence.", just no! Absolutely not. Why on earth do you endorse the the bar being set so absurdly low on SO that there is not even the requirement for a question to include a sentence that ends with ?. Your comment astounds me.
    – skomisa
    Jul 4 at 1:02
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    @zx8754 There are two points of discussion: 1) I got an audit question to evaluate. The "correct" answer seems to be decided by community vote instead of objective metrics. Just because it has upvotes does not mean that the question factually meets certain standards. 2) Overall standards for posting questions. I would argue that if average community evaluation is a valid measure of quality, the average quality will continue to reduce over time. The point of moderation is to increase the quality to prevent exactly this.
    – StephanT
    Jul 4 at 7:24
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    On a related note: would it be possible to only show audit questions that have at least one tag matching a tag that the person posted at least X answers/comments on? Although I agree that [r] should not be treated differently, this would avoid frustration with the audit system.
    – StephanT
    Jul 4 at 7:29
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    @zx8754 Actually, the fact that the question has 10 answers may be a clue that's something wrong -- in general, haven't opened this one -- specifically because an unclear question tends to attract answers that are all over the place as each answerer is going for a different question. Also, if the code is working, and the OP is looking for criticisms/improvements, then the question may be better suited to codereview.stackexchange.com instead. Jul 4 at 7:45
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    In many years of programming I came to the simple conclusion. If you cant articulate the problem, it is that exact reason why you cant solve it. If someone writes long waffle and maybe whines its not working but actual requirement is vauge or expected behavior not stated people make random guesses and sure, one may hit on the answer by chance, but 10 stabs in the dark doesnt mean it was a great question it just means 10 people had a possible opinion for an answer that might get them points
    – BugFinder
    Jul 4 at 10:52
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    @BugFinder in this case all answers give the exact same result, with various performances differences about speed/maintainability. Given R has multiple packages aiming at the same functional results but geared toward different kind of input (volume/format). This is exactly the goal of SO IMHO: provide a knowledge base of how to perform a task, so there's no stab in the dark, even at first revision the question is understandable, it has input, desired output, and show a try at the task, I.e this question has a MCVE. Willing a sentence with an interrogation mark is clearly nitpicking here IMHO.
    – Tensibai
    Jul 4 at 16:12
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    @skomisa: I don't think either the particular punctuation ? or grammatical structure as a query is required. I have asked several questions where I pretty much explicitly say "I'm looking for X." rather than "How do I X?" What's important is being clear on what answers should provide.
    – Ben Voigt
    Jul 4 at 21:24
3

I would vote 'looks ok'.

The question that I asked has a reproducible example (in the first chunk of code), a clear objective ("to find the index of first 1 in the last sequence of 1s (indicated by ^ in the above code)") and shows my attempts (in the second chunk of code).

Admittedly, there are two things that could enhance the quality of the question.

First, I should not simply remove the term 'verbose' in the first edit. I was planning to replace the term 'verbose' with a better term, which I failed to find at the moments of first editing. I just changed the term to 'sub-optimal'.

Second, I should not add benchmark without providing more explanation. It was added to justify why I select the accepted answer. This can certainly confuse people with fresh eyes and thus I removed it.

Final note, Stack overflow has a huge community that consists of people with different culture, knowledge, standard and perspective. It is impossible to create a question or answer that satisfy everyone. Therefore, I would kindly encourage you to be broad-minded before making any harsh judgement.

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    I personally find that the benchmark, and its associated "fastest way to find the first 1 of the last 1 sequence" are the things that would sustain that question, because it's then actually answerable. Currently, it's a bunch of opinion-answers on how one finds it most elegant. At least, with benchmark and a target of speed, one can then choose an actual fastest answer. Jul 5 at 15:31

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