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The answer to Should a reviewer be expected to reject good edits when the language of the summary is rude? seems to be: yes, you should. And that is based on highly voted answers on Rude edit summaries and Good suggested edit, bad edit summary. Accept or reject?.

So, you are dutifully reviewing an edit, didn't need the edit comment to work out what has been done and you approve the edit. A few hours later you find yourself review banned.

Subsequently in the comments on the answer of that question a moderator states:

I'd suggest a moderator flag as the ideal approach, as moderators can change the message in the revision history.

and another moderator:

The edit summary, just like every other input field on the platform, is subject to the CoC.

Now you got me surprised on multiple levels. That doesn't happen often.

I'm surprised that spending time on improving quality on one side but not noticing a CoC violation has these severe consequences. I'm not suggesting that edit comments aren't subject to the CoC. They certainly are. The question is if NOT handling the edit comment is review suspension worthy (or worse).

First (hypothetical) question: if the reviewer had accepted the suggested edit and consequently flagged the suggested edit for moderator attention, would they have been suspended from review? Or more generally: Am I subject to review suspensions due to not flagging review comments that are not in line with the CoC?

The current reject reasons are listed in What are the edit reject reasons?. If I reject an edit because the edit comment is a CoC violation which reason do you want me to pick? I assume not the This edit causes harm one where I duplicate the offensive wording? Please provide guidance I have to stick to.

If the moderator team confirms that this will be strictly enforced going forward, are you going to retroactively suspend users from reviewing? Or is cherry picking a more convenient approach?


I can take this further. Suppose you close a question, but you failed to flag a comment under the question that is in violation of the CoC. Do you get suspended?
The point here is: You do a curation task but fail to do another one. Does that have consequences?

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    Can you expand on what about the edit summary being subjected to the CoC is surprising? Or that such incidents should be flagged?
    – E_net4
    Commented May 8, 2023 at 12:26
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    @Enet4 I tried to clarify that in my recent edit. Let me know if that helps.
    – rene
    Commented May 8, 2023 at 12:37
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    Approve the edit on its merits, but report the CoC violation (via the usual channels). Commented May 8, 2023 at 12:38
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    @RobertHarvey yeah, that would be the preferred and level headed out come of this. But I don't have confidence that this is what we will end up with.
    – rene
    Commented May 8, 2023 at 12:40
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    Unfortunately blackgreen appears to disagree with that solution, @RobertHarvey : "approving and flagging might be sort of acceptable, at the very least it makes moderators aware of something that needs follow up with the user who suggested the edit. However it’s a worse solution since a moderator who sees the review task might not see the flag" emphasis mine.
    – Thom A
    Commented May 8, 2023 at 12:55
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    @ThomA: Review tasks have permalinks that can be included in a moderator flag, so I don't see the problem here. The moderator can be directed precisely to where the problem is. Mods work the moderator queues, so that's where your flag needs to be. Commented May 8, 2023 at 13:10
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    "didn't need the edit comment" But you did need it, because "The answer to Should a reviewer be expected to reject good edits when the language of the summary is rude? seems to be: yes".
    – philipxy
    Commented May 8, 2023 at 15:14
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    @Elikill58 yeah, that is not going to happen. I'm pretty sure they are having a mod-fight now and the reviewers will be the casualties. Sorry that you became part of this. Hold strong.
    – rene
    Commented May 9, 2023 at 6:46
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    @rene I'm a bit surprised at your point of view on this. SO has definitely had trolls who have actively used edit summaries to target very inappropriate comments at users, both on the targeted user's posts and on unrelated posts. I know you've participated in fighting at least one major influx of such inappropriate content in posts, comments, edits, and edit summaries (basically anything with an input box), which happened well before I was a moderator. Edit comments need to be checked and rejected if they violate the CoC. It's part of the reviewer's job to check them and always has been.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 9, 2023 at 15:24
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    @Makyen we certainly differ then on our view whether edit comments need to be checked and part of the approval call but obviously I'm here on an uphill battle with diamonds. I don't understand why you bring up my involvement in fighting trolls. Some might read your comment as if I'm Ok with users that neglect the CoC. That is a spin I find highly offensive. The discussion should be: How do we educate our reviewers to become better at approving awesome edits and bring CoC violations under the eyes of mods. We obviously differ at which educative tools should be used.
    – rene
    Commented May 9, 2023 at 15:44
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    @rene I'm sorry my comment was taken as offensive. I certainly was not attempting to imply that you were OK with CoC violations. I brought up the old fighting trolls issue, because I know from that that you've definitely seen edit summaries weaponized, which, at least for me, was a very clear indication that edit summaries need to be checked. But, the impression I've have from what you've written is that you, at least were, OK with the point of view that it's really not part of reviewer's job to look at the edit summary. I was trying to figure out how to reconcile those points of view.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 9, 2023 at 16:02
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    @rene I realized I didn't say an important part in either of my two comments above. I know you're not OK with CoC violations. That knowledge is a fundamental part of my thinking here, so much so that I didn't even state it, twice. That I know you aren't OK with CoC violations is a major part of why I've had a hard time reconciling my impression that you, at least in the past, haven't felt that checking the edit summary was part of the suggested edit reviewer's job when I also know that you've seen edit summaries deliberately and intentionally used to violate the CoC.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 9, 2023 at 16:20
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    @Makyen the only issue is: The edit comment is a minor thing, doesn't stand out and isn't what a reviewer is primarily looking at. Of course they reject if both the edit and the comment are crap and in case of a CoC violation they happily flag the offensive stuff. The point here is that the mod team decided to use the sledge-hammer on those reviewers that approve a perfectly fine edit but overlooked / mis-interpreted a CoC edit comment. The mod team is hampering the trust reviewers have to do the right thing ™. Yes, you need to reach out to us but not by your current approach.
    – rene
    Commented May 9, 2023 at 16:28
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    @rene I'm open to suggestions as to how to communicate with reviewers when they aren't reviewing correctly. A review suspension with a message saying what the user did wrong and how they can improve has, as far as I know, always been the method used for that communication. It's what that part of the system is designed for. Fortunately, now, such a review suspension can be very short and still show that message to the user. A mod message is, typically, seen as substantially more severe. It's probably not good that just a mod message is seen that way, but they generally are.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 9, 2023 at 16:45
  • 3
    I'll find some more offenders so you can get the communication going. Mouth-to-Mouth advertising it is.
    – rene
    Commented May 9, 2023 at 16:54

2 Answers 2

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The issue here is not failing to act on a CoC violation. Skipping the review would amount to inaction and, needless to say, nobody is ever getting sanctioned for skipping reviews.

The issue is approving a CoC violation. And giving the editor a +2 reputation bonus for that.

The comparison with closing a question without flagging abusive comments doesn't hold. You aren't organically coming across a possible CoC violation here: you are actively approving an abusive remark within a review task. I recommend to read the verb "to approve" not just as the technical meaning it has on this platform, but also in its plain English meaning.

to accept as satisfactory

It is not satisfactory to call someone names, even if you do something useful along with it. The edit summary in a suggested edit is part of the edit suggestion. You are supposed to review it. Would you consider warranted a review suspension in case you approved an edit that introduces abusive language into the post itself? I hope you would. The edit summary is no different.

Therefore the appropriate actions in this case are::

  • Reject and Edit (prefer this if the edit is good except for the edit summary — basically reapply the edit with a different edit summary)
  • Reject as "This edit causes harm" and explain that the edit summary was inappropriate (prefer this if the edit isn't good or if you are unsure whether it's good or bad)
  • Skip

"Improve Edit" keeps the original edit suggestion as a separate post revision, so this doesn't work.

Flagging is left to the reviewer's discretion. Just like when you rollback destructive/abusive edits, it might or might not be necessary to flag for moderator attention right off the bat.

if the reviewer had accepted the suggested edit and consequently flagged the suggested edit for moderator attention, would they have been suspended from review?

Approving the edit and then flagging, might be acceptable, to allow for some leeway on corner cases. At least it makes moderators aware that 1) there may be a problem with the edit suggestion; and 2) aware that you are aware that there may be a problem with the edit suggestion. I wouldn't have review suspended them, if I had seen such a flag, since the main purpose of review suspensions is educational. However the paths we take through the UI are unpredictable. Please don't bank on moderators being able to see these things in any particular order.

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    I'm not approving a CoC violation because that is not what I'm reviewing. I'm reviewing an edit that also happens to have a comment that I don't need to read or even see to approve an edit. Getting suspended over this is nonsense.
    – rene
    Commented May 8, 2023 at 14:50
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    @rene the edit message is part of the edit suggestion. I'm not sure why you refuse to accept this fact. If it weren't, it would be a non-editable auto-generated summary, instead of an input field, and moderators wouldn't have a tool to redact it as needed.
    – blackgreen Mod
    Commented May 8, 2023 at 15:04
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    I somewhat agree with rene here, the edit summary can easily be missed compared to the post body, you can say it is like reading the fine print. Commented May 8, 2023 at 15:05
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    This is a pretty slippery slope. I don't even look at the summary when reviewing an edit unless it's unclear to me why the change was made, they're supposed to be nothing more than clarifying; if an edit was clear then the default summary is fine, in which case, why would you look at it? Calling it "approving" the edit summary and indeed suspending for it is utterly moronic. Commented May 8, 2023 at 17:43
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    I totally agree with Nick. I have ~4k edit reviews, and I barely ever read the message when the edit is good. I usually only check them if it's unclear why the edit was made. The edit queue already has way too many reviews and too few reviewers. Don't make it even less attractive to review.
    – BDL
    Commented May 8, 2023 at 20:38
  • 11
    Folks, frankly, it is quite disappointing to see the "I am not supposed to check the edit summary" reaction. As an active reviewer too (2.2K+ under the belt), I do not understand how can we say it's not our job to read the edit summary. Were it a case of a nonsensical summary or a badly written one, I'd understand, but approving something that contains a direct offence? Come on. Also note that moderators do not have fine-grained tools to address that (warn the reviewer, for example). The only way to bring an incorrect vote to a user's attention is to issue a review suspension. Commented May 8, 2023 at 22:57
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    @NickstandswithUkraine the only slippery slope is letting abuse through. I honestly don't understand on what basis you would think that reviewers should get a free pass here. You are right that edit summaries are "supposed to be nothing more than clarifying". Just like comments! And look, people insult each other in comments all the time. If the concern is that the edit summary isn't prominent enough on the review UI, then that's a feature request for the company; it is not a reason to exempt reviewers from paying attention.
    – blackgreen Mod
    Commented May 9, 2023 at 1:25
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    @rene I'm not talking about disciplinary action towards the editor. I'm talking about reviewers. It's not the reviewer who committed a CoC violation, which would warrant profile-level discipline. The reviewer failed to stop the abuse from harming the victim due to overlooking part of the edit suggestion. That is a review failure which has to be addressed in the review system.
    – blackgreen Mod
    Commented May 9, 2023 at 6:11
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    @KarlKnechtel and it was a net negative to the victim of the abuse. I'm baffled that you folks seem to not find this a definite "no go".
    – blackgreen Mod
    Commented May 9, 2023 at 6:13
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    @KarlKnechtel it was obviously the person who authored the post on which the edit was suggested, and you should also consider that we moderators became aware of the issue somehow. Actually, it was even publicly discussed. We don't just mysteriously find people to review-ban.
    – blackgreen Mod
    Commented May 9, 2023 at 6:28
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    @KarlKnechtel they literally asked a Meta question about it, which I just linked.
    – blackgreen Mod
    Commented May 9, 2023 at 6:30
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    I am going to go on the disagreement bandwagon here. This is an example of treating people like robots. Stop. They're human beings. The summary is going to be systematically overlooked during review. Period. Deal with it in another way than punishment. Fix the review design so it is harder to overlook it. Run an awareness campaign. Do something constructive with it, please.
    – Gimby
    Commented May 9, 2023 at 8:16
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    To be honest, what I also don't get is the outcry about reviewer feelings over a 2-day timeout. We keep telling users they are silly if they say that hurts their feelings. Yet as soon as one of us is put on a timeout (which is not a punishment last time I checked - it's not on the permanent record, it doesn't count against being elected as a moderator, it just temporarily disables reviewer privileges), there is talk about hurting the feelings of reviewers. What's more, I don't get how a red line in the middle of the screen is easy to overlook. I also have to restate that doing [1/2] Commented May 9, 2023 at 14:07
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    [2/2] something about the queues is outside our control. We tried time and time again, but that all depends on SE doing anything about it. Should we dance around every reviewer until that happens out of the fear they stop? No, I don't think so. @rene, re: warning - I am sure you know that sending a warning message puts the "offense" on the user's permanent record - is it really better than a small timeout? Commented May 9, 2023 at 14:13
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    The moderator action when someone isn't following the guidelines for reviewing has been, for a very long time, that a review suspension is issued with an explanation which helps the user learn what they are doing wrong. It used to be that review suspensions needed to be long to be sure it was shown to the user. Fortunately, the system has been changed such that even short review suspensions result in the review suspension message being shown, so such review suspensions can be quite short. It would be nice if the system had a review message without suspension option for mods, but it doesn't.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 9, 2023 at 15:08
13

It's a shame that this particular situation was conflated with a reviewer ending up suspended from the review queues. This had not even been the reviewer's first mistake, plus the suspension was not that long, yet people felt too strongly about the fact that overlooking a code of conduct violation during reviews is a serious issue and had its consequences.

All curation on this platform must have some form of code of conduct enforcement alongside it. In other words, if you find something which amounts to a CoC violation during any of the site's curation activities, ignoring it amounts to doing half the task at best, and contributing to the problem at worst. Do not underestimate it. This part in particular is nothing new in the world of finding self-vandalisms or self-additions of meta-commentary with rude content.

Curation is, and will continue to be, thankless work that needs to be done carefully, and for which curators will continue to be held accountable. The tools in place are not perfect and have tripped reviewers at times. But when they do trip and cause someone to temporarily lose the privilege to enter the queues, the solution never was to relax the curation criteria. If anything, the UI was adjusted so that we had a clearer idea of what to choose. And if not, we educated the reviewers so that the mistake isn't made again.

With that said, given that so many people have very clearly announced that they are very unlikely to see the edit message during the review of edit suggestions... now this is something that may have to be looked into. My suggestions would be:

  • Change the font size of the edit message to match the post body's, which would make it harder to skip with your eyes.
  • Add a flag button directly in the Suggested edits review queue, so that it is easier to report rude edits. When attempting to modflag, it could include a starter text such as "reported through suggested edit 1234567")
  • If it were possible to change the edit message entirely so that it does not appear in the review history, we could make it clear in the help center and in the review page itself about this. Best done alongside the flag capability above, so that the incident would be followed if necessary. But no, currently reviewers cannot redact edit messages.

But I would rather not see these changes as something that we absolutely needed to get things right. We really should not let these cases slip. The feelings of reviewers who made a mistake are not more important than the feelings of victims subjected to abuse.

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    This precisely describes the issue I take with the whole situation. A mistake is still a mistake no matter who made it. Not looking at edit summaries is an active choice (the summary is presented during review, after all), but it's not different from choosing to overlook the title or tags - it's fine as long as nothing happens, it's a mistake if something does. Which did happen in the case at hand. And yes, if so many peers indicated that the summary is easy to overlook (which I still have trouble understanding as of how), then we may have identified another problem with the queues [1/2] Commented May 9, 2023 at 14:32
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    [2/2] that needs fixing. But that fact doesn't absolve the reviewer from the responsibility of treating a review item as a holistic entity that includes several parts: the edit summary, the body, and the tags. Commented May 9, 2023 at 14:34
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    It is only possible for mods to edit the comment in the revision history and that doesn't retroactively redact the comment as shown on the review. I've verified that elsewhere.
    – rene
    Commented May 9, 2023 at 14:40
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    Your answer is a breath of fresh air. It's refreshing to read some constructive suggestions for potentially improving the situation, rather than just focusing on the rights and wrongs of what has already happened.
    – skomisa
    Commented May 11, 2023 at 1:33
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    Hm can we consistently name it "temporarily suspended" instead of "banned" ? IMO the use of the word banned as a catch all for "can't do it anymore" is kind of adding fuel to the fire by making it appear worse than it is. "Banned" implies you can't do it anymore for a long time, not true in this case.
    – Gimby
    Commented May 11, 2023 at 8:18
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    Sure, @Gimby. My intent was to use the right nomenclature, which turns out is the one that you edited in. 👍
    – E_net4
    Commented May 11, 2023 at 8:53
  • A good solution would actually be to add a new approval reason; "approve and edit summary (summary did not meet our standards)", and provide only +1 reputation for the edit. Commented May 30, 2023 at 1:10

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