-36

Time and again I have seen that someone adds a close vote incorrectly (sometimes they mark it as opinion-based even when there is a clear objective question, sometimes they mark it as a duplicate of another question even though it is not).

I guess most of these are honest mistakes because the close voter did not read the question carefully enough. But this can be quite frustrating to posters who ask good questions with good intentions.

I could cite numerous examples of this but I'll cite only one here:

https://stackoverflow.com/posts/34780582/revisions

Admittedly this was initially written as an opinion-based question initially but the opinion-based part was soon removed and fixed to make it an objective question. The question had a proper yes/no question that could be answered objectively with the knowledge of C standard library. An objective answer was posted and the question was resolved. Yet a month later someone voted to close it as "opinion based". Then 4 others agreed with the first close voter and closed the question!

It seems to me that some people are too trigger happy and like to pile on close votes to quickly close questions without reading the question carefully or examining the close vote critically.

I noticed the problem four years later and voted to reopen the question and the question was reopened again.

No harm done here but imagine a new user on this website having to go through an experience like this! So here are my questions:

  1. Why isn't there a higher bar to get close-vote privilege? Something like 100K points before one can get close-vote privilege.
  2. Why isn't there a do-not-close vote option so that people who do not agree with the close vote can register their view. Right now, once the first close vote is registered, it is only a matter of time before the trigger happy users pile on to that. People who disagree with the close vote have no way to register their disagreement as a vote. Imagine a system where users can register both close-vote and do-not-close vote and once 10 votes have been gathered, the majority wins!
  3. When a question is reopened because it was deemed that the original close-voters were incorrect, why aren't the incorrect close-voters penalized? This would discourage the trigger happy people from registering close-votes without reading the question carefully.

I would like to know if it's only me who feels this way or do you see incorrect close-votes as a genuine problem on Stack Overflow and what you think should be done about it.

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  • 11
    "Are there any special scenarios where one is preferred over the other?" still sounds opinion-based to me, as well as asking two questions in a single post...
    – Jon Skeet
    Mar 31 at 9:58
  • 23
    "Why isn't their a higher bar to get close-vote privilege? Something like 100K points before one can get close-vote privilege." This would mean of the over 20,000,000 users on Stack Overflow only about 1,100 of the users could VTC (about 0.5% of the user base). There are literally 100's of questions posted a day, which would be an insurmountable amount of effort for that few users that have both the reputation and the activity. That wouldn't scale at all.
    – Thom A
    Mar 31 at 10:02
  • 32
    Anecdotally I think the opposite problem is really true, not enough posts get closed. Raising the bar to 100K would mean even fewer bad posts get closed by the community which would be more of an issue. "When a question is reopened because it was deemed that the original close-voters were incorrect" - there's no way of really knowing whether the close voters were truly "incorrect", so punishing them just because some other people disagreed and wanted to reopen the question is wrong.
    – user438383
    Mar 31 at 10:02
  • 15
    "It seems to me that some people are too trigger happy and like to pile on close votes to quickly close questions without reading the question carefully or examining the close vote critically." They should be. The site would be better off if questions started out closed and had to be approved. Aside from that, you have no way to know that the close voters got a chance to see the fixed version of the question before VTC. Mar 31 at 10:13
  • "Why isn't there a do-not-close vote option" - there is. It's buried in the close vote queue, and I must confess I don't actually know what it does, but it's there.
    – F1Krazy
    Mar 31 at 11:12
  • 5
    It's fun to see this post in close vote review queue of meta
    – Elikill58
    Mar 31 at 11:37
  • 1
    Re the example: It must have been a mega duplicate even back then (8 years after the launch) Mar 31 at 12:00
  • 1
    "When a question is reopened because it was deemed that the original close-voters were incorrect" how would an automated system detect this? What if it was the case that the close votes were actually correct for the previous state of the question which later got fixed and reopened? What if people just accidentally selected the wrong reason? This does not seem feasible to implement. Mar 31 at 12:01
  • @F1Krazy well it does nothing much. It is a review action so if enough votes are received the post is removed from the review queue. It has no effects on the existing close votes. Mar 31 at 12:04
  • The closed votes happened before the question was not seeking our opinion. Mar 31 at 12:50
  • 3
    "Why isn't there a higher bar to get close-vote privilege? Something like 100K points before one can get close-vote privilege." can you provide some reliable statistics why that would help? How many questions are wrongly closed (and how do you examine that) and how many of them are wrongly closed by users below or above 100k rep? In other words why did you choose this as acceptable cutoff?
    – VLAZ
    Mar 31 at 13:23
  • 10
    "Imagine a system where users can register both close-vote and do-not-close vote and once 10 votes have been gathered, the majority wins!" we had to reduce the required close/reopen votes from 5 to 3 on SO because the system was process was entirely too slow leaving swathes of questions discarded. Both closing them and reopening them. So, why do you think it's a good idea to raise the required votes to essentially 6? Because with your proposal even 5 close votes would be not enough for a majority in 10 votes total.
    – VLAZ
    Mar 31 at 13:25
  • 7
    "When a question is reopened because it was deemed that the original close-voters were incorrect, why aren't the incorrect close-voters penalized?" do you have statistics on how often this happens? Vs how many times a question is reopened after being improved? I'm not entirely convinced that it's some enormous problem. You haven't really convinced me it's so wide spread that we need to impose sanctions on users who use their close votes.
    – VLAZ
    Mar 31 at 13:27
  • 1
    "proper yes/no question" Most yes/no questions are not helpful & not literally the intended question.
    – philipxy
    Mar 31 at 22:04

5 Answers 5

26

Time and again I have seen that someone adds a close vote incorrectly (sometimes they mark it as opinion-based even when there is a clear objective question, sometimes they mark it as a duplicate of another question even though it is not).

I've seen this, too. However, it is not even remotely as common as people failing to close a question that obviously should be closed. I've seen established users with a long history, a gold tag badge, tons of reputation etc. leave a comment that indicates that they know something is a duplicate, but they don't dupe-hammer it. I've seen people with 6-digit rep write answers for questions that are either blatantly duplicates (with famous canonicals in some cases) or blatantly need more focus, without giving it a second thought.

I guess most of these are honest mistakes because the close voter did not read the question carefully enough.

Good thing it can be undone as easily as it was done.

But this can be quite frustrating to posters who ask good questions with good intentions.

The issue here is that when a question gets closed, the asker will almost always imagine that the question was good and asked with good intentions. Of course, I'm sure the intentions actually were generally good; but those intentions don't matter because the policy is about the questions, not the person asking them - and IMX, in the overwhelming majority of these cases, the OP who thinks the question is "good" (i.e.: not closable according to site standards) is incorrect.

Admittedly this was initially written as an opinion-based question initially but the opinion-based part was soon removed and fixed to make it an objective question.

The closure did take place significantly after the edit - I was wrong about that part in my comment. That said, I can still imagine how people could interpret the question as "opinion-based" even after the edit. (I personally disagree, but I do think the clarity can be improved.)

I noticed the problem four years later and voted to reopen the question and the question was reopened again.

And then another three years after that you saw fit to take the issue to meta. Why not mention something at the time?

Why isn't there a higher bar to get close-vote privilege?

Because that's what the site decided to implement.

If the question is intended rhetorically: I disagree strongly. Not even remotely enough questions get closed. The bar should be much lower, if anything. Better yet, questions should start in a closed state, and the community should have to agree that they're answerable. As is, you get people abusing the site by writing quick answers to things that blatantly shouldn't be answered, in search of a quick +25 reputation (upvote + accept from OP).

Quality is important here. It is not possible to "build a library of detailed, high-quality answers" without high-quality questions.

Why isn't there a do-not-close vote option so that people who do not agree with the close vote can register their view.

If you mean something that would counteract close votes, then a) no, this is a terrible idea, see above; b) once the question is closed, said individuals have equal voting power to reopen. Yes, there's a sort of social disadvantage (first-mover effect, I guess). That's fine, in my book. The alternative is constant close/reopen wars.

If you think there's a problem with people who want to close questions for bad reasons, wait until you see the people who'd want to keep questions open for bad reasons. Keep in mind that the former group is not motivated by the reputation system, while the latter is.

When a question is reopened because it was deemed that the original close-voters were incorrect, why aren't the incorrect close-voters penalized?

Because they were almost certainly acting in good faith. Branding them as "trigger-happy" is poisoning the well.

More importantly: you seem to imagine that a question being closed is some huge injustice. All it really does is prevent more answers from being added. In the example you cite, you got the answer you wanted right away, along with one more answer that the author retracted. Then nobody tried to answer until the question was closed a couple weeks later anyway. Then, in the three years since reopening, there has been one more answer that a) got downvoted and b) I'm sure you would agree is bad (it's admittedly talking about C++ rather than C, and it just shows a huge code example without a proper explanation).

So - how much harm was really done?

I could cite numerous examples of this but I'll cite only one here... I would like to know if it's only me who feels this way or do you see incorrect close-votes as a genuine problem on Stack Overflow

Claiming to be able to cite numerous examples, and then citing one example from 7 years ago, is really not very convincing.

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  • 6
    I have seen users with gold badges in a tag, essentially, submit duplicates of answers that are themselves canonicals instead of closing a question as a duplicate of that already existing question that they themselves wrote. When asked to improve that new answers, they typically, just instant delete it. Mar 31 at 13:52
  • 1
    @SecurityHound The python tag is rife with them. Apr 1 at 10:06
  • @NickstandswithUkraine The good old Python tag. There’s so many duplicates and uncurated content there, that I’ve started struggling to search for questions to close as duplicate for, even though I know they exist, somewhere. It’s not fun finding original questions when there’s 100+ search results. Apr 1 at 11:10
  • ... Are other popular tags not as bad? Apr 1 at 19:05
19

When there's a disagreement about question closure, it's not easy to determine who is right or wrong. If any of the participants were blatantly misusing their privilege then a moderator can be informed. Mods can warn the user or even suspend for incorrect usage of their privilege, but it has to be a regular occurence that became a pattern for that user. A single disagreement here and there is not a misuse.

The truth is that not enough questions get closed. People with this privilege do an awesome job, so we wouldn't want to restrict this privilege.

There already exists a process for challenging someone's close vote. In the close vote review, reviewers can choose to leave it open. Once closed, 3 users can vote to reopen. It's quite easy to reverse wrong decision.

11

When a question is reopened because it was deemed that the original close-voters were incorrect, why aren't the incorrect close-voters penalized? This would discourage the trigger happy people from registering close-votes without reading the question carefully.

There isn't any real method to currently know whether the original close voters were 'incorrect'. Just because some other users think the post should be reopened doesn't mean it was erroneously closed originally. Unless you can propose a cast-iron way of determining whether the original close vote was truly 'incorrect', punishing close voters in this would not be in the spirit of the site.

0
10

As a reviewer and as someone who's been review-banned a few times, I totally disagree with you.

  1. There is discouragement for wrong voting. This is done through audits in review queues, or a moderator can ban you directly. I have sadly experienced both.

  2. We are human, we can do mistakes. It's a simple thing, but I know I have already made some mistakes, or vote for things that I will vote for differently now. It's because we are human and we have different opinions. Post -as you showed- that could create disagreement comes from people can have different point to check for close vote.

  3. Closing is not definitive. Even if there is a mistake, you can always revert it. You can also ask for explanation / help on meta.

  4. Do not close option exists, it's called locked question. Some questions can be protected to prevent people from closing it. It's used by moderators on useful questions asked historically but would be closed today.

  5. Reopening does not mean that the close votes were wrong. For example, you could close a question as a typo, and the OP might edit to demonstrate the problem is something else. Close vote can be a correct option, even if the question gets reopened later.

  6. Review queue are waiting for you. You don't agree with the closure of a question? Ask for reopen than tell what you think on close review. Make your voice be heard by speaking with review.

  7. You could ask the same thing for the opposite. For example, penalize people for reopening a post which should not be reopened.

  8. As said in comment by Thom, 100k rep (or even 50k) is too high. It will just break the close review queue more that it already is, and breaking everything just because there is few wrong votes that can easily be reverted, is a bad idea.

To conclude, even if I understand why you posted this, I don't agree with this. It's a bad idea to penalize people that are trying to make the site better, when there is already some protections, and when we are already missing some reviewers. Please, go review a lot then you will see the point of view from the closer side.

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  • 2
    "protected question" can still be closed.
    – Dharman Mod
    Mar 31 at 13:28
  • @Dharman by mod, everything can be done, but for real person, some types of protection prevent from closing ?
    – Elikill58
    Mar 31 at 13:34
  • 2
    No, normal users can still close protected questions.
    – Dharman Mod
    Mar 31 at 14:24
  • 3
    protected and locked are two different things (and there's even different kinds of locks)
    – Kevin B
    Mar 31 at 14:25
  • 4
    Protected questions only prevent users not gaining 10 reps from answering the question.
    – Andrew T.
    Mar 31 at 16:41
  • “There is discouragement for wrong voting. This is done through audits in review queues, or a moderator can ban you directly. I have sadly experienced both.” – what’s a review queue? Apr 5 at 10:37
  • @user3840170 It's all review queues that you seems to already tried as you made 200 reviews on SO. Review queue allow high rep people to choose between options for management of SO content as first questions, first answer, if reopen post etc
    – Elikill58
    Apr 5 at 11:27
  • @Elikill58 The joke is that I suspect most close votes are not cast through review queues at all. Apr 5 at 11:34
  • Oh it was a joke xd Over 5.5M votes have been made through only close vote review, From SEDE, there is over 1.2M manual close vote.
    – Elikill58
    Apr 5 at 11:42
0

On one hand, I sometimes see questions from new users unfairly quickly closed for spurious reasons. Take, for example, this already deleted, yet perfectly legitimate question (about achieving code injection in a CTF challenge). On another Stack Exchange site, I see users just a bit too trigger-happy to close questions as off-topic, and I get frustrated not being able to do anything about it.

Regarding stay-open votes, there is actually such a thing. The problem is that it can only be cast from a review queue, and it only affects whether the question stays in the queue; whereas a close vote can be cast just by visiting the question, and the question can still be closed if there are enough close votes from random visits. I suspect many more close votes are cast from random visits than from the review queue, especially for fresh questions. I think this unfairly skews the voting system towards closure.

But on the other hand, questions that should have been closed, but do slip through the cracks can have a hard time getting closed even when someone notices them. Many questions with the tags , or are blatantly off-topic and have been nominated for closure numerous times, only for the votes to expire.

I fear your solutions are too likely to throw out the baby with the bathwater; other answers here address that in more depth. However, I think there are some other technical remedies that would for the most part help, so here’s my list of counter-proposals:

  • Make stay-open votes more powerful relative to close votes. Either:
    • allow casting stay-open votes from random visits, each cancelling one close vote, or
    • only allow nominating a question for closure from a random visit; make close votes after the first only possible to cast through the review queue.
  • To thwart tactical and bandwagon voting, require enough close votes to be cast for the same reason for the closure to take effect, and hide the number of votes cast for each particular reason. A stay-open vote should cancel one vote for the close reason with the most votes. If a question legitimately meets a closure criterion, this should be evident just from reading the question itself; this should eliminate confusion from stray votes cast for spurious reasons and result in more effective feedback for the asker.
  • Weigh votes from the review queue heavier than votes from random visits (for example, a vote from a random visit may be worth ¾ or ⅗ of a review queue vote). Alternatively, weigh close votes on new questions lighter than on old ones.
  • Related to my answer on the central Meta about the reputation system, deny reputation for answers on negative-score questions. This will reduce answerer incentives to reply to poor questions, and thereby the pressure on voters to close poor questions as soon as possible, and thereby the temptation to tactically vote for closure as soon as a question appears flawed, though not necessarily flawed enough to close.

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