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Yesterday I posted a question regarding PHP on Stack Overflow. It was not well received.

I made it short and sweet because I thought it was a fairly simple question and didn't want to fluff it up.

Of the three responses one was a sarcastic non-answer and the other described my question as zero-effort non-question. And the question was quickly closed with the message that I should update the question and improve it.

OK then. So I took the criticism, left an apology in a comment and made a good faith effort to improve the question, providing detail and a sample of what I was trying to do with the best information I could provide.

It was promptly voted for deletion by the same person who criticised it as no-effort.

So what gives? I've go to tell you, it seems like a bit of a minefield. I try to conform to the expectations of the platform and am unceremoniously deleted.

How can I post a question when a good-faith effort to do it right gets the post deleted?

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    As edited, your question seems fine. The "Short answer: Yes, there is a way" comment (now deleted) that you received was unhelpful and unfriendly, and shouldn't have been posted (you can flag such comments as "unfriendly or unkind" or "no longer needed"). Someone else posted a more helpful comment, and you followed that advice (I've removed that comment too, as it's no longer needed). I'm not sure why people felt it necessary to respond to that by deleting the question. I've undeleted it, both to facilitate discussion here and because I don't think it merited deletion.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Mar 28 at 1:39
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    Tangentially, it's worth noting that none of the individuals involved are moderators, but simply community members using moderation privileges earned through reputation. Moderators appear with a diamond next to their name on the main site, and a "♦ Mod" badge on the meta site.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Mar 28 at 1:43
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    "deleted by the individual"... it takes three votes to delete a question. You can see in the timeline that it wasn't any individual
    – Phil
    Mar 28 at 4:24
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    I've removed a bit of the frustrated parts from the meta-question; they can attract backlash for the tone, even if the content would have been fine. Feel free to edit it again if I have gone too far anywhere, or you want to focus it a bit more. Mar 28 at 7:20
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    Sorry to hear it. Unfortunately premature deletion is kind of a thing right now. I'm afraid it is going to be one of the harder things to get a grip on without the company pulling the strings.
    – Gimby
    Mar 28 at 7:46
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    This restores my faith. Information, assistance, guidance to the inexperienced user, a little constrictive criticism. Online interaction at its best. Many thanks to you all. I will try to pose better questions from the get-go in the future. And to the down-voters of this question, thanks for your contribution! ;)
    – scaiferw
    Mar 28 at 13:29
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    Why did you want to ask the question in the first place? It sounds like a question that has been asked many times before (using a file with some transformation layer that presents itself with an SQL interface? - a different kind of data source. Facade?). Stack Overflow is really not geared well as a human search engine (maybe it should be or have a layer on top to avoid these kind of questions). - Mar 28 at 15:34
  • cont' - An intersection is 6,842 questions. Maybe it hasn't asked been many times before. I think it is the kind of question ChatGPT is well suited for: How can do I X using Y and Z? But treat the answer with extreme scepticism (always verify). It lies and makes things up. Or use it as a way to generate keywords for a regular web search. Mar 28 at 15:40
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    Side note: what you are essentially asking is "please downvote my posts instead of deleting them" - while it aligns with SO guidance you may not want that outcome either... Mar 28 at 17:53
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    @AlexeiLevenkov Erm, how do you come to that conclusion? One can also just disengage from a post that has already been handled. Mar 28 at 18:56
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    @MisterMiyagi currently deletion is used as "super downvote" (which is what is against SO guidance - we are not expected to delete questions that simply not showing research effort). Instead we are expected to downvote. As result those who voted to delete should have downvoted the post. And OP is disagreeing with deletion which indieed was wrong, but desired alternative is unlikely to make OP happier... Also while many people ask "stop looking at my question" to stop downvotes the outcome of that is no answers... which again unlikely what OP wants. :( Mar 28 at 19:16
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    @AlexeiLevenkov Sorry, I keep on seeing comments how deletion is somehow en par (or even more helpful) with not doing anything and, well, I am baffled. An unanswered question is heaps better than an unanswered question that is also deleted. We aren't expected to keep on kicking a question that has already been handled. Mar 29 at 8:20
  • @MisterMiyagi not sure why you suggest that "not doing anything at all" is the right action as alternative to "super-downvote-delete" - if one deletes the question because it not up to sites standards in some way they should do moderation by downvoting instead of deletion. Indeed there are mercy deletions that flat out should not happen - but even in that case one ideally should vote instead (probably up). Mar 29 at 16:42
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    @AlexeiLevenkov 'not sure why you suggest that "not doing anything at all" is the right action as alternative to "super-downvote-delete"' Because nothing needed to be done. The question was already sufficiently voted on when the delete-votes were piled on; being able to delete-vote means the question was already severely downvoted in the first place. Mar 29 at 17:52
  • @MisterMiyagi formally speaking one is expected to vote on the content and not base votes on the current number of votes the post has... (note that this is my understanding of the site's current policies... does not necessary mean I agree or follow :)) Mar 29 at 18:12

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When you say "over-moderation", what I think you mean is that Stack Overflow's standards are too high, it is too hard to write a question that is well-received. And yes, Stack Overflow expects a relatively high standard for questions, much higher than a typical forum, chat room, Facebook group or so on, and that makes it difficult to write a question that will be well-received.

But are the standards too high? Well, too high for who? Broadly, I would say there are three sorts of people who use Stack Overflow:

  1. People who mostly write answers,
  2. People who mostly ask questions about problems they are facing,
  3. People who mostly don't even have user accounts, and post neither questions nor answers, instead they find answers by searching for existing Q&As, typically on Google or other search engines.

Group 1 would think the standards are too high if a question they want to answer gets closed. Group 2 thinks the standards are too high when they have a problem but they can't ask a question about it that meets the standards. But group 3 would only think the standards are too high if the Q&A they're looking for doesn't exist because nobody was able to ask the question they care about.

The thing is, group 3 is by far the largest. And group 3 is the biggest beneficiary of high standards: when they search, they want to find one Q&A that is clearly about the problem they have, not a hundred links to questions that might be related but it takes effort to tell.

So a good question on Stack Overflow is one about a problem that other people might have, that there isn't already an existing Q&A about, and one that is clear and specific enough that someone with a similar problem can tell whether or not theirs is the same problem. And that's not easy to write, particularly for members of group 2 who are often relatively less knowledgeable programmers and don't necessarily know what problems other programmers might face. Unfortunately, it often takes similar skills to judge whether a question would be useful or interesting to a wider audience and what details about the problem need to be specified, as the skills that would be required to solve the problem for yourself anyway.

My best advice to members of group 2 is to learn by observation - Stack Overflow is a community, and if you watch how the community operates you can learn its standards and norms. Watch a tag you're interested, see what questions are asked, what clarifications are asked for in comments, what posts get upvoted or downvoted or closed. If you learn to tell whether someone else's question is high or low quality, you can apply that knowledge when you write your own questions. More generally, I'd say that any time you join a community, it takes some time and observation to learn how to participate in it.

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    I kind of wonder if Stack Overflow has not become too big for this kind of advice though. There are thousands of questions asked daily, it is kind of hard to learn by observation from that as it is pretty much too much noise, too many false positives, too many problems slipping through the cracks. I would rather observe meta to be honest, and see what kind of responses are given to common problems like "I am question banned. Why?"
    – Gimby
    Mar 28 at 13:58
  • @Gimby Yes, that's fair, but you don't need to see everything to get an idea of how things work. Picking one tag and watching a sample of the questions there is good enough.
    – kaya3
    Mar 28 at 14:02
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    I'm the one who wrote "over-moderation" (softening OP's words stemming from frustration which I fully understand) and it means that people delete questions without any rhyme or reason. If there are standards supporting that behaviour, I've missed the memo. Mar 28 at 14:03
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    I sometimes wonder how a new user should understand today's assessment of questions with yesterday's. One wonders how some of the earlier (and now most upvoted) questions, such as this, or this would be handled today. By the standards of those questions, the OP's looks downright loquacious. If the OP was using the most upvoted questions here as a guide, one can understand the confusion.
    – Mark
    Mar 29 at 4:50
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    @Mark there isn't a set expectation for question length. Questions should be terse insofar as they avoid noise. They should be verbose insofar as that is necessary to understand the question - the exact requirements for a how-to, or the exact steps to reproduce a problem. There isn't really anything that could be added to the Git question that would improve it. A fair bit of recent editing on the most important Python canonicals has been to make questions shorter. Consider for example the history here. Mar 30 at 12:30
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    By contrast, a question like "how can I treat CSV-formatted data as if it were a database, and query it?" isn't remotely as descriptive, because it requires much more imagination. (The obvious approaches also clearly involve separate parsing and querying steps, which makes the question Need More Focus.) The linked duplicate at least focuses on the querying step; the closer seems to assume that OP can figure out loading CSV data into an array. Mar 30 at 12:32

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