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I asked a question which went through the Staging Ground first. After it was approved and published from the Staging Ground, there was a large back and forth in the comments concerning some misconceptions I had as to what was needed for the post. @m. n., and @463035818_is_not_a_number were kind enough to enlighten me as to the reason my post was poor quality.

Shouldn't all of that have happened during the Staging Ground review, not when the post is active? If it had happened there, I don't think I would have even needed to continue with the post.

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    The SG is for ensuring that the question is on-topic and well formatted, and to help (new) users to improve that before it's published. Those who, for lack of better words, review the questions may not be SMEs, so may be unable to address the nuances that the comments bring up.
    – Thom A
    Mar 14, 2023 at 16:25
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    I'll take this feedback back to the team anyway to see if we can make it clearer to Authors what the next steps are for posts that graduate the Staging Ground and that some of them may go on to receive further feedback, comments, and even down votes or closure in some cases. But hopefully, mostly answers :)
    – KyleMit StaffMod
    Mar 14, 2023 at 18:01
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    @ThomA can you clarify the meaning of SME in your comment: "Those who, for lack of better words, review the questions may not be SMEs". I only know SME as "small-to-medium enterprises, that's probably not what you meant. Ah, I asked ChatGPT/Bing AI and they clarified that you probably meant Subject Matter Experts. Mar 18, 2023 at 14:44

2 Answers 2

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No, the Staging Ground is not a place for subject matter experts to determine things like misunderstandings of specific language features. While that can sometimes happen if a SME sees your post within the Staging Ground, it's not the intended point. Unless the SG reviewers are C++ experts, there's no way they could know your question/situation suffered from the misconceptions it does.

The point/goal of the Staging Ground is to make sure you are asking a question that has had effort put into it, is well-focused, and not falling prey to the more common issues that first-time askers run into (like asking blatantly off-topic questions, posting images of code instead of text, etc.).

See the main announcement of the Staging Ground for more information.

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    Just commenting to say that this is 100% correct. A non-zero things will leave staging ground that go on to be closed as not good enough for whatever reason - the goal is A) to reduce the number of those closed and hitting the main site and B) improve the author experience by giving feedback before the downvotes come raining in
    – KyleMit StaffMod
    Mar 14, 2023 at 17:55
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    @KyleMit Is it really an improvement for the user when they get feedback that the question is fine and then get the question closed anyway? Wouldn't that look weird and raise the question what the point of that staging ground was? From what I can find in the linked announcement and the pictures there it looks like the user expects a bit more from the review in the staging ground, especially since it mentions that this is done by an "experienced community member". Might be something for an help article to explain the limits of a staging ground review, so users don't feel disappointed.
    – Tom
    Mar 14, 2023 at 18:06
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    @Tom For this one user, sure, it's not a great improvement. It is however an improvement for all of the cases where it was successful. The question of course is whether that improvement is worth all the reviewer time required to make it work.
    – Kevin B
    Mar 14, 2023 at 18:12
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    @Tom, we're discussing ways to make sure we can properly communicate the right expetation to the author, but so far the feedback has been very positive from having the ability to refine a post before it "goes live" and introduce users gently to the community standards. At Beta stage, any feedback is good feedback that'll ultimately help us build the right thing
    – KyleMit StaffMod
    Mar 14, 2023 at 18:17
  • @Tom The Staging Ground is really just a soft landing into the question existing on the main Q&A site; the experience for the asker should be pretty smooth... the main difference is that answers cannot be posted for questions in the Staging Ground. I view Staging Ground experiences (e.g. comments left by reviewers, etc.) to be similar, if not identical, to the first few interactions a post receives on the main Q&A site. I haven't seen it from the asker's perspective, but I don't believe it is clearly delineated as "hey, you're in purgatory first." -> "OK, now your question is fine for main!".
    – TylerH
    Mar 14, 2023 at 19:01
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    @TylerH "but I don't believe it is clearly delineated as "hey, you're in purgatory first." -> "OK, now your question is fine for main!"" this is the complete opposite of what I wrote. I honestly don't know how you came to that conclusion.
    – Tom
    Mar 14, 2023 at 19:37
  • @Tom You asked "Is it really an improvement for the user when they get feedback that the question is fine and then get the question closed anyway?" (emphasis mine). What I am saying is that they don't "get told their question is fine".
    – TylerH
    Mar 14, 2023 at 19:38
  • @TylerH Oh ok you mean that, got it. They don't? When I ask a question and the site tells me it is reviewed by an "experienced community member" and that I should act quickly when they find something, then I would naturally assume that when the question is approved, that the reviewer deemed it as fine/acceptable. What other expectation does this process and the given explanations set up? That the given feedback on this feature is very positive is fine and I hope it stays that way, i.e. users don't really expect too much from this process and aren't disappointed, but I'm afraid this will happen
    – Tom
    Mar 14, 2023 at 19:48
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    @Tom experienced community member means someone who knows what a good question looks like in general as outlined in How to Ask. It does not mean "subject matter expert" for the tags your question has.
    – user
    Mar 14, 2023 at 23:50
  • @user I know what it means and I'm not the targeted user for the staging ground, it is for new users on the plattform and how should they know what "experienced community member" means and that there is a clear distinction between "them" and SMEs?
    – Tom
    Mar 14, 2023 at 23:54
  • @Tom explore the technology world and get get a wide enough view of it that they realize the world is bigger than just the thing they're looking at at that not everyone who knows something knows everything? That, or we can write docs on what SG is and what it's purpose is and what it's purpose is not.
    – user
    Mar 15, 2023 at 0:09
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    Okay, but the comments I see (on the now-deleted question on the main site - I can't see the Staging Ground) from 463035818_is_not_a_number seem to be about the question lacking a MRE. Surely it doesn't take subject matter expertise to identify that a question lacks a MRE? At the very least, we could direct SG reviewers to questions that are about language tags they're at least interested in? The question here speaks of "misconceptions I had as to what was needed for the post" - not misconceptions about C++. Mar 15, 2023 at 2:57
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    @KarlKnechtel It does actually usually take a subject matter expert to determine whether a snippet of code constitutes an MRE. Despite being proficient in multiple programming languages, I don't know C++, so I couldn't tell you whether a code snippet on a C++ question constitutes an MRE. Of course, if OP didn't include any code at all in a debugging question, then yes, someone might be able to discern that it lacks an MRE without subject matter expertise.
    – TylerH
    Mar 15, 2023 at 16:14
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    @KarlKnechtel Regarding pointing SG reviewers to posts about language tags they are interested in, that's the hope, but the volume of both posts in SG and of reviewers of SG is very small right now since it's in beta, and it also isn't ever likely going to be enforceable even when the SG is live, for reasons similar to what I said above. Reviewers can and should use the "skip" option (or the "needs review from another user" option) if they are not able to make a final determination on the fitness of a question in the staging ground.
    – TylerH
    Mar 15, 2023 at 16:16
  • "It does actually usually take a subject matter expert to determine whether a snippet of code constitutes an MRE. Despite being proficient in multiple programming languages, I don't know C++, so I couldn't tell you whether a code snippet on a C++ question constitutes an MRE." I think it only takes a C++ compiler and an understanding of how to run it, not the ability to actually write any code in the language. (Security risk notwithstanding.) Mar 15, 2023 at 19:44
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(I'm cocomac - the person that reviewed your post in the Staging Ground)

Generally, in the Staging Ground, we're supposed to look to make sure it's a good question. But oftentimes, we're not experts in the subject of your specific question, as TylerH mentioned. In this case, I'm not very knowledgeable about C++.

In the Staging Ground, your post looked overall reasonable. It included

  • What you are trying to do
  • Why you were confused
  • Some code, that presumably demonstrated the issue (I'm not familiar enough with C++ to know specifically what that code does, although that is fine in the SG)

There was a minor formatting suggestion I made, but other than that, your post seemed good, so I approved it. Going back to what TylerH said, though, the purpose of the Staging Ground is to make sure the question itself is of good quality. It isn't for solving the issue itself (we can find duplicates, but other than that, we generally can't help solve your question within the Staging Ground)

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    thank you! Per the clarification offered her, I have a better understanding as to what I should have expected. I appreciate the updates you and the other have provided.
    – StormCrow
    Mar 14, 2023 at 16:36
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    Yep, I agree the post passed the sniff test on staging ground and was good enough to publish - but also doesn't guarantee success once it hits the main site. Also there are bound to be discrepancies in how some people decide to triage some posts and the onus they put on stuff like MREs. That's why we need communal consensus before voting to close, but still could depend which audience you're question reaches (in terms of explaining the delta been SG and main site)
    – KyleMit StaffMod
    Mar 14, 2023 at 17:59
  • "The purpose of the Staging Ground is to make sure the question itself is of good quality" - if reviewers can't identify that the example isn't a MRE, then the SG system is clearly not accomplishing that goal, as a "what is wrong with the code?" question that lacks a MRE is inherently not "of good quality". At the very least, it should get reviewed by someone with the capacity to try running the code (and, ideally, to recognize malicious code) to see if it actually does reproduce the issue described. Mar 15, 2023 at 3:01
  • @KarlKnechtel that is what was done in the first beta, most reviewers tended not to review posts where they weren't an SME. The guidelines for reviewers now published on the help center tell us "You don’t have to be a subject matter expert" and to "trust your gut". This is mostly done to solve the lack of reviewers having subject matter expertise in the staging ground, this was discovered to be one of the major pain points in the first beta. Mar 15, 2023 at 4:03
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    @KarlKnechtel I respectfully disagree. While I get where you're coming from, IMO that would lead to way too much time being spent on each post, and not enough posts would get through the SG. I (and likely many others) aren't knowledgeable enough in enough languages to look and analyze the quality of a code sample at a glance. While I do look through the entire post (code blocks included) to make sure they look reasonable, it isn't practical for me to manually test the code in each post
    – cocomac
    Mar 15, 2023 at 4:19
  • @KarlKnechtel The Staging Ground is more of a "Training" Ground... training for how to appropriately post on SO. It's not intended to be a mini-SO site where questions get answers. KyleMit is absolutely correct in saying that posts generally just need to pass the sniff test, e.g. does it look like a well(enough)-formed, on-topic post with enough details that someone could answer. One of the snags we hit in the beta was many questions getting hung up on getting pixel-perfect and not making it out of the SG.
    – Drew Reese
    Mar 17, 2023 at 16:19
  • @DrewReese if it doesn't have an MRE and needs one, it shouldn't make it out of the SG.
    – Kevin B
    Mar 17, 2023 at 16:25
  • @KevinB Did I say anything about an MRE? 🤷🏻‍♂️ Not every question necessarily needs a MRE, but I think we'd all agree if a MRE was necessary it'd be included in the "...with enough details that someone could answer" part of my comment.
    – Drew Reese
    Mar 17, 2023 at 16:26
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    @DrewReese Not directly, but karl's argument is that posts are making it out of SG without an MRE that need one because subject matter experts aren't the ones reviewing a given post. If non-subject matter experts reviewing posts is resulting in posts being approved that shouldn't be, the SG isn't serving its purpose.
    – Kevin B
    Mar 17, 2023 at 16:29
  • That said, if it fails to prevent a question from being published that shouldn't be only 10% of the time, it's still a success, ;) it'd just be unfortunate for those who had their post sent to the front page only for it to be downvoted/deleted.
    – Kevin B
    Mar 17, 2023 at 16:33
  • @KevinB yes, you have understood correctly - thanks for the explanation, and I agree with you WRT setting expectations for the SG system. Mar 17, 2023 at 23:29

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