-28

Say you type or say anywhere on any device "Melbourne, Australia", or almost any geography-like issue.

Google will immediately give you: text from Wikipedia.

Say you type or say anywhere on any device "iOS Swift UILabel placeholder position", or almost any software-like issue.

Google will immediately give you: text from Stack Overflow.

But note that

In the first example, Google screams "answer from wikipedia.org" before the text.

In the second case Google screams "answer from stackoverflow.com" before the text.

Now here's the issue. ChatGPT is google with dressing. (It simply does what google does, and adds dressing.)

If I type "iOS Swift UILabel placeholder position" at ChatGPT, in the overwhelming majority of cases, the result printed on the screen by ChatGPT, has overwhelmingly been sourced from SO. (Exactly as when you type "iOS swift UILabel placeholder position" at google, since ChatGPT is google with dressing.)

But in the ChatGPT case, it does not scream at you "from Stack Overflow".

Will anything be done about this?

(Note, I could not care less about the stock price of either corporation: I just don't want SO's utility diminished, whilst I need it for my work.)

11
  • 11
    This whole question is based on a misconception of how a language model works. Sure, its training data may include SO contents, but it doesn't quote anything verbatim.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 12:52
  • 20
    Also, "ChatGPT is google with dressing." is comparing apples and oranges. Google indexes the internet and doesn't generate content, itself. ChatGPT is the exact opposite in that it doesn't have access to the internet, and has to generate all output, by itself.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 12:53
  • 15
    You're worried about attribution, based on the misconception that ChatGPT is copying text, verbatim. I'm no "ChatGPT fanboy", and your suggestion that I haven't read your question is rather toxic.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 12:56
  • 11
    Based on the comments here alone, I feel that you're already not open to discussing this matter, and are on the side of "I'm right, you're wrong"; which is likely only going to attract downvotes and/or close votes. As has been stated, ChatGPT does not quote Stack Overflow, or content from other sites, it uses the content it has been fed (which may well have been from Stack Overflow) to write it's own content. That's no different to some answers I've written in the past, where I've used things I have learned from Stack Overflow (in the past) the write an answer to a question. Am I ChatGPT?
    – Thom A
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 12:59
  • Hi Larnu, you seem to have keyed on the first comment which mentions "quoting verbatim". ChatGPT does not quote Stack Overflow, or content from other sites, it uses the content it has been fed (in fact, overwhelmingly from Stack Overflow) to write it's own content. (ie: as you just said.) Have you ever taken a photo of a street in Germany - are you google street view? When street view came in to being, it was (and is) a hot legal and social issue whether or not street view is a good or bad thing, whether or not it helps or hurts other parties.
    – Fattie
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:02
  • 10
    So you're saying that I need to cite where I've learned to write all my content, as that's what you want ChatGPT to do? Well if so, this comment was brought to you by my parents and <redacted> primary school in <redacted> who taught me to read and write.
    – Thom A
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:05
  • 1
    I don't know where I'm standing in those arguments, but I did manage with some trial and error, in finding some possible original sources for some of the output cgpt produce: Excerpt one, two, three, four. I could go on, but you get the idea. Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:05
  • 1
    (cont2), while I said what I said above, that doesn't mean it can support generating attribution, as I mentioned in my own meta post on SO, it uses weight, randomized distribution, and other statistical properties to be able to generate "good" sounding and plausible output. Taking into account that it's probably also highly sorted by humans based on other existing AI-based company, you get the result that is presented before you. This means, that with some trial and error and some probability, you can indeed get the original output, just like with copilot, etc. Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:07
  • Larnu, "So you're saying that I need to cite where I've learned to write all my content, as that's what you want ChatGPT to do?" Cheap "analogy hypotheticals" don't work at all. (As I pointed out with the street view example.) I have concern what an individual does. Even under current, everyday existing, legal milieu, if C-G is writing millions of answers a day, making billions of dollars from doing so and is entirely achieving that using another resource (SO) - that's a fat ass lawsuit or government action.
    – Fattie
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:37
  • 10
    ^ that's massively overestimating the programming use ChatGPT has... If it were that powerful, why isn't GitHub dominating the market with their CoPilot?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:45
  • 8
    I have learned all my skills in what I am a (self proclaimed) SME of from other resources (much from Stack Overflow, but not only), @Fattie , so should I be awaiting a "fat ass lawsuit" because I've provided over 3,700 answers?
    – Thom A
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:52

2 Answers 2

10

But in the ChatGPT case, it does not scream at you "from stackoverflow".

It doesn't, because it doesn't need to.

It can't possibly quote its sources, because its sources are all of its training data.

That training data (likely) includes Stack Overflow, but that's certainly not the only source.

33
  • (1) The source is absolutely overwhelmingly SO. No neeed for a point 2 !
    – Fattie
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:03
  • 5
    Worth noting that whether or not using the internet at large as training data constitutes plagiarism is a massive, ongoing discussion with passionate arguments on both sides (read: massive dogfights in comment sections). Not arguing against you, but it's a topic in active discussion far beyond SO Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:04
  • 5
    That's your opinion. That's not how a language model works, @Fattie.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:04
  • 1
    Using the internet as a training data source isn't plagiarism.. Note that I don't disagree with your previous statement (not this one, the other ones), but for this particular point, "it depends". As Zoe better explained earlier, this is an ongoing discussion in various fields and communities. Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:11
  • 2
    @Fattie You're asserting that ChatGPT is literally copy-pasting whole answers, or whole blocks of code. That is simply not how language models work. Sure, it possible based on limited training data for the input, that the output is generated on only one or two sources, but then it's still just a word-for word generated output based on limited available sources.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:12
  • 1
    @Dr.Snoopy: Again, limited matching training data for the request. The request basically demanded a plagiarized copy. What'd you expect?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:13
  • 1
    @NordineLotfi: My point is that the "It depends" comes into play in the request / output generation. Training an AI is a different matter. No text is generated, it's just reading public data.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:14
  • 1
    Again, SO is far from the only source of training data. @Fattie
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:17
  • 1
    @Dr.Snoopy That "fast inverse square root" example is (also) quoted on Wikipedia... A website that's absolutely contained in CGPT's training data. In fact, if you'd google "fast inverse square root", you'd see a heckload of results quoting that exact snippet. No wonder ChatGPT generates that code. It could be using 20 source sites to generate that exact output.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:18
  • 7
    @Fattie The existence of language models doesn't hurt SO. The only damage happens when CGPT is fed back into Stack Overflow with no filter. It isn't an intelligent AI. It can degrade the content on Stack Overflow (which is why it's banned), and it can degrade its own training data (not our problem), but in its current state, it's a research artifact and not commercial. CGPT not being intelligent means it's incapable of competing with Stack Overflow. And when GPT at large can produce not just believable answers, but consistently correct answers, mission accomplished Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:19
  • 3
    @Fattie: That's simply impossible, because ChatGPT is trained on data up to 2021. It has no access to the internet.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:24
  • 3
    @Fattie ChatGPT is in a "Free Research Preview". It's not gonna stay free forever. It also generates plenty of low quality answers. SO traffic hasn't dropped since CGPT went public, so your scaremongering really is unwarranted.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:30
  • 1
    There's no paradox, there's no lie. The AI isn't retrained on live data. "they added a line of code last week to scrape again recently" It's not that simple.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:34
  • 4
    @Fattie " Prosus and C-G (and google) are advertising companies" - So? Ad blocks exist too, which is arguably a bigger threat (resource costs plus no income is a net negative). I'm also gonna have to side with Cerbrus. This sounds far more like fearmongering than anything else. OpenAI is aiming for making CGPT a paid product, and free alternatives for anything generally get more attention. Even then, OpenAI's products (for the time being) have a massive disclaimer that accuracy isn't guaranteed, and all output has to be vetted. The CGPT ban and the data points leading up to it (1/2) Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:37
  • 4
    have demonstrated that people don't validate the content it produces. It'll take a while for people to realize it isn't as good as human-produced content, and especially when it's paid, it'll hardly represent a dent in traffic. Again, the only point when AI will represent a true threat to today's model of the internet is the day AI is actually intelligent. We aren't there yet, and when we get there, again, mission accomplished. The internet will see another shift, companies adapt, people adapt, and a new normal resumes Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:40
3

ChatGPT might generate answers that are verbatim (or near verbatim) copies of existing answers, but for the same reason Stack Overflow does nothing about scrapers they can't do anything about ChatGPT not attributing answers.

The reason for this is that Stack Overflow does not own the copyright to the content, which remains with the original author. If you find ChatGPT quoting content you own verbatim your recourse would be to contact OpenAI yourself.

2
  • As mentioned extensively the issue is unrelated to "verbatim".
    – Fattie
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:39
  • 3
    That's pretty significant when attribution is concerned... Attribution, which is the core issue you seem to raising here...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 13:43

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .