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Frequently, candidates for a moderator election who do not win are called up later to meet demand.

New election or calling up candidates from a previous election asks the question "when" this happens. However it doesn't address the question of "how" this happens.

Moderators in the chat room for the 2022 election have implied that calling up additional candidates later is a definite possibility, and the number of positions was lower anticipating that.

The STV system includes some situations where the runner up may not have been the next candidate selected with more positions available.

In what order are additional candidates called up later, if/when that happens?

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    I'd imagine the requests would go in order. So, whomever comes in 2nd would be the first person called up if an additional mod is needed. Whomever comes in 3rd would be the next person called if 2 additional Mods are needed or if the person who came in 2nd declines the opportunity if an additional Mod is needed. Nov 14, 2022 at 22:21
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    @JohnnyBones "comes in second" is a bit more complex with STV (click on "migration of preferences" for example of how it doesn't always work that way) Nov 14, 2022 at 22:34
  • Whether or not they re-apportion the votes, there ultimately is a winner, a runner-up and so on. My memory is hazy on the process here, but I'm pretty sure that as people drop out or get eliminated, their votes are given to other candidates. However it works, in the end there is a score, and the one with the highest score wins. The one with the next highest score is the runner-up, and so on. Nov 14, 2022 at 22:43

2 Answers 2

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Our system currently runs the election numbers directly with OpaVote - we push a button and it spits out the OpaVote link we share with y'all after running the election based on our pre-defined requirements. It pulls in things like the vote type (STV - Meeks), positions to fill, and the candidate information... all of that is in addition to the votes themselves.

If the mods here ask us to bring in another moderator within six months of the prior election, we actually re-run the election on OpaVote to get the new outcome. While this often leads to the same outcome as picking the second-highest vote recipient, it allows excess votes to be transferred to the second choice candidates of people who selected the winner as their first choice... which can change the outcome.

Also, when there are more seats, the threshold for winning is lower, so the number of votes that are considered "surplus" changes, which can make a huge difference in cases where there was one clear winner.

For example, take a case where we have the following candidates and 1000 votes between them.:

Candidate first second third
Whale 700 200 100
Petunias 100 700 200
Planet 200 100 700

With only a single slot, Whale is the obvious choice and Planet comes in second. If we didn't re-run the election, Planet would get called up. But actually, Petunias is nearly everyone's second choice! So, to avoid this situation, we run the election again. There's a couple of ways we can do this but they generally end up with the same result.

  • we re-run the election without the winners of the original election.
  • we re-run the election with more slots.

Either way, Petunias gets called up instead of Planet... even if the planet always wins in the end.

All silliness aside, please - be sure to select more than your top candidate! We may use that info eventually!

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    Silly Transferable Votes?
    – Machavity Mod
    Nov 14, 2022 at 23:34
  • If you're interested, you can download the ballot file after the election, and then rerun the election with various settings to see who would be the second and third elected moderator for both possible approaches if they choose to call up additional moderators.
    – Erik A
    Nov 15, 2022 at 9:03
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    The ballot files for all (probably, I haven't actually checked. all recent elections do) previous elections are also still available for public science:tm: Nov 15, 2022 at 10:10
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    HHGTTG reference. Nov 15, 2022 at 16:06
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    @PeterMortensen I'm glad someone recognized it. :D
    – Catija StaffMod
    Nov 15, 2022 at 16:11
  • @Catija we actually re-run the election on OpaVote — it looks like OpaVote doesn't allow to change the number of positions when recounting ballots (for non-logged users) or am I missing something?
    – blackgreen Mod
    Nov 21, 2022 at 16:35
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    @blackgreen Our account lets us run as many elections as we want - we have to re-upload the data in a new election but it's the same votes.
    – Catija StaffMod
    Nov 21, 2022 at 16:38
  • @Catija Yes I mean, what I'm asking is: as an unregistered user, it is not possible to recount ballots with a different number of available seats, is it? Only you can do it because you can operate SO's OpaVote account.
    – blackgreen Mod
    Nov 21, 2022 at 17:08
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    @blackgreen I understand that y'all may want to check our work, but is there a reason, otherwise, that you mention this? There are also non-OpaVote ways to tally votes. ;)
    – Catija StaffMod
    Nov 21, 2022 at 20:26
  • @Catija I mention this because I want to be able to recount ballots with different number of seats available. Beside the fact that it may be relevant in the near future, it's an interesting parameter, by itself. I was wondering if the OpaVote UI had some knobs that I just didn't see. Anyway, I implemented Meek myself, so... problem solved! :)
    – blackgreen Mod
    Nov 21, 2022 at 21:05
  • Each election results page (example for election 13) has links to download OpenSTV software for Windows or Mac. Those links say they're only displayed if you've voted (which appears to mean ever voted in any election on that SO/SE site). If you haven't voted, then "all others may use this source distribution" is displayed. I've previously downloaded the software from those links and used it with the votes files from multiple elections to obtain results identical to those elections.
    – Makyen Mod
    Nov 22, 2022 at 14:26
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This answer specifically complements this remark from Catija:

If the mods here ask us to bring in another moderator within six months of the prior election, we actually re-run the election on OpaVote to get the new outcome.

Unfortunately, the OpaVote GUI doesn't allow unregistered users to re-run an election with a different number of seats. While it is surely not a problem that this be a prerogative of the Community Management team, in general I would like to have the ability to recount ballots with different key parameters.

After searching for a while, I couldn't find any readily available solution. The software available from the download link in the election page also doesn't run on my machine. so I ended up implementing MeekSTV by myself.

You can find a mostly accurate Go implementation* in my github, with a README that explains all you need to know to run the program. To recount ballots with a different number of seats available:

  1. download the ballot .txt file from OpaVote summary page:

enter image description here

  1. add this file to the program's workdir (see README for details)
  2. change the very first line of the ballot file as follows:

Change six candidates, two available seats:

6 2

into six candidates, one available seat:

6 1
  1. recount ballots (see README for details)

To recount ballots with the same number of seats available but the winning candidate(s) removed (keep factor = 0, votes transferred to second choices), change the second line of the file by adding the index of that candidate, negated.

E.g. 6 candidates, 2 seats, remove candidate 5:

6 2
-5

If the second line in the ballot file doesn't already have a negated index (it is instead the first ballot), add it. If it exists, append the negated index next to the others.

The project is rather unrefined at this stage, but it should be enough to satisfy your curiosity — at the very least it satisfies mine.

Disclaimer:

Just to reiterate on-site what the README already says:

This software is in no way a replacement for Stack Overflow's own election process. It is simply meant to make it easier to recount votes with different parameters. The results of any recount done with this program aren't binding and don't prove or disprove anything. This program is exclusively meant to satisfy my — and hopefully your — curiosity.

In other words, whatever responses this software gives to a query, it is not official, and never will be. Refer to the Community Management team for official vote tallies.


*: see the README for known limitations

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    I understand you put considerable effort into this, which is appreciated. However, each election results page (example for election 13) has links to download OpenSTV software for Windows or Mac. Those links claim they are only displayed if you've voted. Experimentally, the actual criteria for display of those links appears to be that the logged-in account has ever voted in any election on that SO/SE site. If those links are not shown, then "all others may use this source distribution" is displayed.
    – Makyen Mod
    Nov 22, 2022 at 14:21
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    @Makyen thanks, I was aware of the download link. That software doesn't run on my machine, probably because it was built for amd, whereas I have an M1 mac. I reached a point during my research where I deemed faster — and arguably more interesting — to DIY.
    – blackgreen Mod
    Nov 22, 2022 at 14:37
  • @Makyen I followed the links and can't find said software anywhere. Maybe it used to exist, but OpenSTV is now OpaVote, there's no software, you can do online "counting" for free but you still have to provide a CC as an anti-spammer measure. Compare that to a few command lines in my terminal to install go, clone bg's repo... it's actually pretty valuable! :) Nov 24, 2022 at 7:17
  • @DanielWiddis At least for me, the links to download the OpenSTV software for Windows and MacOS are on every election page on an SE site where I've voted in at least one election. I just downloaded the software again, as I did just before posting my prior comment.
    – Makyen Mod
    Nov 24, 2022 at 13:00
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    @DanielWiddis I'm wasn't saying the software announced in this answer isn't useful. I was saying that SE does already supply links to software which is functional for a substantial number of people, and that SE did include a link to the source code. Although, for some reason, they only link to the source code if you haven't voted.
    – Makyen Mod
    Nov 24, 2022 at 13:05
  • Alright, and if you rerun the (2022 => 14th) Election with 6 1, do you get the same Results like the "official" Results...? // But the Answer we are all "secretly" hoping for, is if you rerun it with 6 2 and then 6 3, who would/will become Runner up #1 and Runner up #2, if some additional Mod(s) get(s) called up...?
    – chivracq
    Nov 25, 2022 at 12:58
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    @chivracq Yes, by rerunning the 14th election with 6 1 it's the same as the official result. Then, it depends on how the recount is done, which Catija didn't specify AFAICT. If the election is rerun with more seats, then 6 2 wins sideshowbarker and Henry Ecker. If it's rerun with 6 3, wins the former two and me third. If the election is re-run with sideshowbarker withdrawn 6 1 and -5 I win. 6 2 and -5 me and Henry Ecker win. Basically the second and third runners-up are me and Henry Ecker. Who is second and who is third depends on the recount method.
    – blackgreen Mod
    Nov 25, 2022 at 13:01
  • Of course the above comment hinges on the assumption that my Meek implementation is free of bugs. I've tested with different ballot files also from other Stack Exchange sites and the final results seem consistent. However whatever I, or my software, says w.r.t to recounting ballots is not, and never will be official or binding. The CM team are the only persons who can provide official results.
    – blackgreen Mod
    Nov 25, 2022 at 13:13
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    @chivracq refresh the page. I pressed enter by mistake. The Precision is the number of decimal places to which float values are truncated.
    – blackgreen Mod
    Nov 25, 2022 at 13:15
  • Alright I understand, OK, interesting, and Thanks for all Explanation... Well to "find out" which Recount Method they use, you could test it on the Ballot from last year (2021 => 13th Election), as 2 Runner ups got called up, so you already know the Result to get, but I "think I remember" reading ("somewhere...?) they were using the Withdraw Setting, => 6 1 -5 for the 1st Runner up, and then 6 1 -5 -2 (or 6 1 -5,2...?, not sure about the Syntax) for the 2nd Runner up if -2 corresponds to you as the Winner of 6 1 -5 to be excluded...
    – chivracq
    Nov 25, 2022 at 13:35
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    @blackgreen For running old elections: The vote data files used to be generated live for each download. That meant that after even a brief amount of time, the downloaded votes wouldn't be the same as the actual election, as deleted/destroyed user's were no longer included in the data. I don't recall when, exactly, this was fixed to static files (2021?), but the residual effect may be that the files now available for old elections may not exactly match the votes used in the actual count. I don't know if they used original files or took snapshots of the data at the time the issue was fixed.
    – Makyen Mod
    Nov 25, 2022 at 13:38

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