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This isn't just me. The same mod in question here has been doing this on many edits (another meta question was asked just after this one, with the suspension there being 2 months, instead of 2 days.)


I recently got suspended from reviewing suggested edits because two edits that had been approved in the review queue got rejected and rolled back by a moderator about a week later.

I don't mind the suspension, but I'm a bit confused as to why I was suspended.

This is the edit I'm talking about: https://stackoverflow.com/review/suggested-edits/32614730

The answer was originally just a block of code. This edit added an explanation about how it worked.

Quoting from How to answer:

Brevity is acceptable, but fuller explanations are better

Surely this was an explanation.

The OP even commented on that answer, asking "Why does this work" (direct quote from OP's comment)

In my opinion (and another reviewer's opinion as well), this was a good edit.

I approved it on August 31st. The next day, another reviewer approved it.

However, on September 9th, a moderator rejected it, and it got rolled back.

Can someone explain why this was not a good edit?


P.S. The other edit I reviewed was, again, approved in the queue, and then rejected by the same mod.

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  • 7
    @MichaelSzczesny Not the same user (account). gatete vs gatete
    – Ivar
    Sep 11, 2022 at 14:28
  • 7
    @Ivar - Thx, that's a strange coincidence. Sep 11, 2022 at 14:29
  • 11
    In fact they might be the same person, notice that one of them is an unregistered user Sep 11, 2022 at 14:32
  • 11
    While this question is a dupe, I disagree with the accepted answer and would consider this case an example of why the accepted answer is wrong.
    – einpoklum
    Sep 11, 2022 at 15:20
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    Don't change the author's intent. Don't change code. Don't approve that.
    – philipxy
    Sep 11, 2022 at 16:07
  • 5
    If there's something like a missing brace at the end or a missing include at the top of a code block, and it clearly has nothing to with the problem I generally add it. Sep 11, 2022 at 18:00
  • 47
    I've had a similarly poor experience with reviewing suggested edits recently. I was suspended for three edits which a mod disagreed with. I can see their reasoning, but in all three cases my review decision was my honest best effort based on the available information and my interpretation of the guidelines. Reviewing edits isn't fun, or even really possible at all, if the rules are opaque, inflexible and rigidly enforced. Sure, change my edit decision, but don't suspend me for acting in good faith. Just tell me how I can do better next time.
    – Sam
    Sep 12, 2022 at 12:11
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    I really cannot for the life of me see how rejecting edits like this makes SO a better place. It seems to very clearly make the post better and there's no ambiguity about explaining how code works - that's not conflicting with anything.
    – user438383
    Sep 12, 2022 at 13:30
  • 30
    I think it's kinda weird for a mod to come along and undo these kinds of edits, as long as the edits are edits that aren't detrimental. The author of the post can revert it instantly if they decide the explanation that was added is insufficient or not what they intended. It's not yet at a point where mod intervention is necessary.
    – Kevin B
    Sep 12, 2022 at 15:04
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    @KevinB I agree. I thought that the going policy with borderline or controversial edits was roughly "only step in when it's obvious", or only taking binding action on especially egregious cases. Maybe Zoe thought this was one of those cases, but this seems pretty steep for an action that the community apparently considers controversial at best (as indicated by the answer scores below).
    – zcoop98
    Sep 12, 2022 at 15:58
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    @philipxy The only code change appears to be fixing the file name to what the question OP actually showed - the "test2.txt" was a mistake and should have been "test.txt" all along. Sep 12, 2022 at 17:30
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    Boy, oh, boy. If nothing else, this thread makes me feel even less guilty that I spend no time reviewing edits. Do I have this right? Person A posted a code-only answer. Person B (who might have been person A under a slightly different username) augmented the code with some explanations. Person C approved the edit. Somehow this was such a wrong thing to do that moderator D came along and blocked person C for his trouble. And now quite a few of the commentators on this thread are agreeing with moderator D. The "hate" part of my love-hate relationship with SO is confirmed. Sep 12, 2022 at 23:04
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    @MattDMo I have nothing to add beyond this answer, which established a consensus. I've featured that post to give y'all an opportunity to change the consensus (read: I'm not going to argue about it here because it's already argued for me elsewhere), but it was regardless the consensus at the time of the review suspension
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Sep 13, 2022 at 16:38
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    @TheThonnu I don't. See the linked answer, particularly the third and fourth sentences. The help center gives advice that's far too open to interpretation, however; see the last paragraph. (As an aside, problems open to interpretation or with no answer at all is what we have meta for)
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Sep 13, 2022 at 16:43
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    There are two questions at play here: "is this a type of edit we would like to be accepted", and "might a reviewer, following the review guidelines on the help page, reasonably accept this edit". It's very possible to answer no to the first and yes to the second, which would yield a strong argument for changing the help page. In practice it looks like there are voices on both sides of both questions, which could mean it's destined to remain unclear. I think it's very important to keep the two questions distinct, though. For the sanity of the reviewers as much as anything else.
    – Sam
    Sep 13, 2022 at 17:12

3 Answers 3

67

Based on my reading of the help page, the edit was okay and your decision was not incorrect.

Under "Common reasons to approve," the help page says that you should approve an edit if it

Adds additional information or clarifies existing answer

This is exactly what the edit did. The explanation that was added by the edit constitutes additional information which clarified the existing answer.

Other reviewers rejected the change, apparently because they believed that it deviated from the original intent. By my reading of the guidelines, the edit does not meet that criterion. Under "Common reasons to Reject," the help page says that you should reject an edit under this criterion if it "clearly conflicts with author’s intent," which is clarified as

changes a post to say the opposite, or something very different from what the original post read.

The edit did not change the intent of the post to something very different or opposite from its original text. In fact, practically all of the original text was retained.

I initially said that "all of the original text was retained," but I want to thank the commenters who noted that there is a small meaningful change to the original answer text, where the filename test2.txt is corrected to test.txt. This correction makes the code in the answer a closer match for the code in the original question. Approving edits which fix small mistakes is encouraged by the review guidelines.

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    +1 for actually referring back to the actual help page which is what should be used as a reference for these kind of disputes
    – user438383
    Sep 12, 2022 at 16:12
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    Sure, they added additional information for clarity. They also edited code which wasn't necessary to improve any understanding of it or the issue. Perhaps the author clearly intended the variable name.
    – Drew Reese
    Sep 12, 2022 at 16:46
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    For me, changing test2.txt to test.txt could easily count as "fixing a minor mistake" (see Common reasons to Approve). I say that because the question has test.txt, so it seems correct to match that. But I agree it's not clear cut. I'd still say that the edit "improves the post" and does not "clearly conflict with the author's intent". I don't say that I would have made that edit myself. Just that the review task was carried out correctly based on the instructions given.
    – Sam
    Sep 12, 2022 at 17:19
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    I am still unconvinced that suggested edits that require domain knowledge are good idea on a site where the queue is frequently full. This kind of edit can only be approved by someone who can tell whether or not the edit is actually correct. Burnination efforts often involve tag only edits (sometimes there really is nothing else to fix) but we still ask folks under 2K rep not to flood the queue with those edits.
    – BSMP
    Sep 12, 2022 at 17:20
  • @Sam "test2.txt" to "text.txt" is a simple text change in a string in what appears to be a file name, how is it even possible for anyone other than the author to determine this string value is a mistake without looking over their shoulder and inspecting their filesystem?
    – Drew Reese
    Sep 12, 2022 at 18:04
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    Ok, I see now where "text.txt" is specified in the original question. I do then now tend to agree with the code edit to align with the code example provided by the question's OP. The editor should have specified more than just "Explanation" as for the reason/justification for the edit as-a-whole. Think of the edit message as a "commit message" so the intent of the edit is clear to all future readers.
    – Drew Reese
    Sep 12, 2022 at 18:19
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    @BSMP New users are correctly encouraged by the Help Centre to helpfully edit posts in order to obtain reputation. The fact that the edit queue is constantly full is a problem of resources and site management, not the new user attempting to contribute positively to the site.
    – Ian Kemp
    Sep 13, 2022 at 15:36
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    @IanKemp The Help Center does not say or even suggest that any and all edits are valid. We don't allow edits that would change an incorrect answer into a correct one because it would conflict with intent. We don't allow suggested edits of under 6 characters, even though it's often possible for a post to have typos of one or two characters. We absolutely have rules on this site that exist for practical and logistical reasons.
    – BSMP
    Sep 13, 2022 at 16:24
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    @IanKemp What do you mean? That’s just how the queue works. If you don’t have the edit privilege then your edit goes into the queue. If the queue is full then you can’t suggest an edit. The system literally doesn’t allow it. That’s why I’m asking if edits that can’t be reviewed by most people are a good idea. It prevents suggested edits when full; it doesn’t get infinitely big.
    – BSMP
    Sep 13, 2022 at 22:01
  • "When can I not suggest an edit? We stop accepting edits for many reasons, including but not limited to: There are too many suggested edits pending on your site, i.e. the suggested edit review queue is full....500 on Stack Overflow, for the site's suggested edits queue." meta.stackexchange.com/a/76284/293308
    – BSMP
    Sep 15, 2022 at 2:27
4

I understand that this question already shows a heavy sentiment against how this edit was reviewed, but at least I ought to provide my own reasoning.

As one of the reviewers of the first suggested edit, in retrospective, I probably would have acted differently on it, but what's particularly confounding here is that someone went out of their way to extend a code-only answer to include a thorough explanation in their own words. It is confounding because at that point, the editor at hand was almost in a better condition to post a new answer to question with that explanation, than to modify an existing answer. And one would then let voting do the rest.

Again, I understand that some would disagree with this reasoning, and I admit that rejecting it was probably not in everyone's best interest. Still, I feel that we should not overlook the threshold up to which a contribution could stand by itself. The second suggested edit is very extensive. At that point, why is this an edit and not an answer by its own? An eventual update to a technology in a way which might partially or completely invalidate an existing answer once someone wants to use a different version is a perfect reason to post a new one, and in my opinion, that edit goes way beyond what the original author intended to do. I wouldn't be surprised if the reviewers felt the same way about this one.

Even if we keep intent out of this, why are people investing so much on piggybacking thorough extensions to an existing non-community wiki answer? In such cases, participants may contribute with an independent answer, potentially garnering their own source of reputation, and without requiring a review step. The accepted answer is also no longer pinned to the top, and work is under way towards making trending answers have a better chance of being seen. And even so, it should not be asking too much of visitors to scroll half a page.

In short, while the first suggested edit doesn't seem farfetched and I should probably have some more leeway on extending answers with explanations in the future, there are non-insignificant situations in which one should consider posting a new answer over editing an existing one. This, or just let someone with the edit privilege do that kind of maintenance.

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    why are people investing so much on piggybacking thorough extensions to an existing non-community wiki answer? Because Stack Overflow already suffers from too many answers. People searching for a solution to their problem generally want one good answer, not 15 different ones that they have to pick through to find the most correct one for their situation/time.
    – Ian Kemp
    Sep 13, 2022 at 15:26
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    the editor at hand was almost in a better condition to post a new answer to question with that explanation I don't see why this is any better than just editing the post. As Ian mentioned, surely it is preferrable to keep the post cleaner with fewer, polished answers than various half-arsed answers that clutter up the question, which may or may not get downvoted enough to be deleted.
    – user438383
    Sep 13, 2022 at 15:45
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    I stand with the opinion that we should not be too uptight by the idea of a question collecting more than the "one answer to rule them all". It feels overly idealistic and it's not something that approving suggested edits is going to fix completely, or make things substantially different in that regard. Efforts seem to be much better spent curating the too many questions on the site (a much greater problem than too many answers) and voting on answers.
    – E_net4
    Sep 13, 2022 at 15:50
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    An edit isn't always the right thing to do, sometimes posting a new answer is better. In the first review, an edit was better, IMO, since it's just making that answer what it should have been in the first place. Nobody's arguing that questions should only have one answer, and we should always edit, just that it's not good to have multiple very similar answers, especially ones that copy (with attribution) the code from an existing answer just to add some straightforward non-controversial text explanation to it. Sep 13, 2022 at 16:54
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    But you're making that "one answer to rule them all" point about the second edit, which yeah added a whole new section with a 2022 update. The question only had one answer, so not cluttered, and the edit didn't have to change much of anything about the existing answer, just added a whole new answer. I'm very strongly in favour of aggressive edits (especially on high-voted answers on old popular questions), but even I agree that would be better as a new answer, and shouldn't have been a suggested edit. Especially with trending sort, a couple new upvotes could pop it up to the top for now. Sep 13, 2022 at 17:03
  • the 2nd edit did not change the intent at all, it just added the explanation of what the code did to a user who might be tempted to otherwise see commentless code and cut and paste it unthinkingly. Nobody wants that. The original answer was incomplete, the edit made it a good answer. What's concerning though is the power trip the mods are on (again) banning someone for being helpful is never acceptable, never. You only ban people who are actively detrimental in objective ways.
    – gbjbaanb
    Sep 14, 2022 at 12:18
  • @gbjbaanb We are probably not seeing the same edit. It was portrayed by the editor themselves as an update to incorporate new information which could well have been made into an independent answer.
    – E_net4
    Sep 14, 2022 at 12:24
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    @gbjbaanb Maybe also drop the assumptions of moderators being ill intended, as the moderator in question already explained that the decision was founded on the previously established community consensus. It was only after the edit had been brought up here that the unhelpfulness of this edit was contested. Once we're clear on how to handle these cases moving forward, moderators can also lift suspensions accordingly.
    – E_net4
    Sep 14, 2022 at 12:27
  • "... this question already shows a heavy sentiment against how this edit was reviewed" -- perhaps, but actually that wasn't my intent. I can't speak for anyone who voted on my answer, but it was motivated primarily by the review suspension, not the edit decision. Specifically: was the OP's action compatible with the instructions given? It's clear that both 'accept' and 'reject' could be interpreted as valid, depending on which instructions you follow and how you interpret them. At that point the edit review resembles a democratic vote, where neither choice should be treated as inadmissible.
    – Sam
    Sep 15, 2022 at 8:06
-7

If an answer just drops a chunk of code with no comments and the code is not self-explanatory, then it's a bad answer. The correct action then is to down vote.

(These kind of answers actually get showed into the low quality review queue automatically, though most of the time they shouldn't be deleted since they are just bad but attempt to answer the question.)

The edit was correctly rejected/rolled back because the changes were too radical and may change the meaning of what the original author intended - you were essentially writing a whole new better answer inside someone else's mediocre answer.

What you should probably have done instead of editing was to post a competing answer but with a much more detailed explanation.

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    I don't really agree, why do we insist on not going against a non-existing intent? If the author didn't post an explanation there's no concrete intent an explanation edited in can go against. The only way we can conflict with the authors intent is if the explanation is incorrect in which case we can simply reject or rollback. Also in this case the edit was probably by the same person (see comments above) and they just lost access to their posted answer to be able to edit it. (Although I agree that reviewers don't need to investigate that part) Sep 12, 2022 at 6:59
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    @AbdulAzizBarkat If the OP provided no explanation, so you should assume their intent was not to add an explanation. Adding such an explanation goes against their intent. The proper behaviour is to add a new answer. The fact that - maybe - this OP created two accounts does not change this, because we can't know for sure. Sep 12, 2022 at 7:46
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    @AbdulAzizBarkat Speculating about the intent of someone posting a code-only answer isn't meaningful and far beyond our expectations on edit reviewers. Also this isn't wikipedia; we can't just do radical changes to someone else's post unless that post was converted to a "community wiki" which isn't the case here.
    – Lundin
    Sep 12, 2022 at 8:01
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    @MarkRotteveel I would reply by quoting Cody Gray's comment: "No author ever intends to post a low-quality answer, and even if they do intend this, I'm perfectly happy with our being inconsistent with that intent." (The question which that comment is on should really be where we are discussing this) Sep 12, 2022 at 8:33
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    @Lundin "Speculating about the intent of someone posting a code-only answer isn't meaningful and far beyond our expectations on edit reviewers." agreed. Then why do we speculate that adding an explanation goes against their intent and factor that into the review? Also "radical changes to someone else's post" I thought it was general consensus that once something's been posted on Stack Overflow it belongs to the community. Sep 12, 2022 at 8:38
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    @Lundin I am not talking about the copyright of the content, the content and the copyright of the original post obviously belongs to the author. But the community is free to edit it and create derivative works (with citation) since they have licensed it under "CC BY-SA 4.0". In essence the conceptual "post" belongs to the community, with the original content still owned by the author. Sep 12, 2022 at 9:17
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    Whose or what purpose does writing a new answer serve, that fixing the old answer does not?
    – Sneftel
    Sep 12, 2022 at 13:23
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    @Sneftel The person who could be bothered to write a complete, good answer and not just dump some code-only answer on the site? The good answer gets credit, the bad, low-effort answer can be down-voted. That's how we set quality standards for the site. Otherwise people might just post any slop and hope that someone else will come and fix it...
    – Lundin
    Sep 12, 2022 at 13:26
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    @Lundin Posting slop and hoping someone will fix it is clearly not a dependably winning strategy on SO, to the extent that I don't see it as being important to consider or discourage as a strategy. Blocking someone from edits just because they ran the risk of unworthily rewarding someone strikes me as cutting off the nose to spite the face.
    – Sneftel
    Sep 12, 2022 at 13:40
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    @Lundin If you feel like it, sure, though I'm not sure where you're getting the "should" from. Generally I would find it easier to write a good answer from scratch, than to rehab a poor one. But your slippery slope there doesn't sound particularly unpleasant at the bottom.
    – Sneftel
    Sep 12, 2022 at 13:49
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    I think it becomes more clear if you flip it upside down. If you make major edits to an existing answer you also risk making it worse and then all of a sudden the original author sees more reputation loss from downvotes than they deserve. Edits should be touch ups, not rewrites. Unless it is a community wiki of course as mentioned, then there is more leeway.
    – Gimby
    Sep 12, 2022 at 14:07
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    @Gimby the original answerer is notified of the edit and can always immediately and unilaterally roll back the edit if they like. I’ve seen many answers hugely improved by significant edits; I’ve rarely if ever seen them hugely (or durably) harmed by them.
    – Sneftel
    Sep 12, 2022 at 14:33
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    ...and man, the score on this answer is sloshing around a lot. I wonder what one can infer about the attitudes of people in different time zones from that.... right now the Silicon Valley bros are waking up so we'll see how they feel :-D
    – Sneftel
    Sep 12, 2022 at 14:53
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    @Gimby Then it sounds like the problem you pointed out is a hypothetical one, predicated on patterns of activity far different from those we've both observed. Let's concentrate on the actual situation.
    – Sneftel
    Sep 12, 2022 at 15:31
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    "Otherwise people might just post any slop and hope that someone else will come and fix it" This is a good thing, as long as a) it isn't NAA; b) it's close enough to correct that an edit is easier than starting over; c) the question merits an answer. Sep 13, 2022 at 13:46

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