-13

I saw this question with offensive content (see the edit history):

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/73427037/how-to-match-with-regex-in-javascript

Some comments criticized the offensive content.

A moderator removed the comments, but didn't remove the content or the question. A user removed the content after their comments were deleted by the moderator. The moderator commented that "the sample data is a little inappropriate".

Is this how moderators are allowed to handle Islamophobic content or was this wrong behavior of the moderator?


The original text:

Here is text

Use symbols in your comments ** bold ** | _ itali c_ | # underline # | code aksjdhfkjashd fa ** Yes ** , ashdkjfhaksd _ Islam always generate terrorism _ , sdfhajksdhfkjh # underline # , code asdhfkjasdhkfjhas d

and I want data in the list form.

  1. ** Yes ** in bold
  2. _ Islam always generate terrorism _ in italic
  3. code in code

My flag was declined:

declined - a moderator reviewed your flag, but found no evidence to support it

It seems like "Islam always generate terrorism" isn't considered "rude or abusive" on Stack Overflow.

29
  • 3
    @IMSoP Two comments were deleted by the moderator before 13:35 saying "the sample data is a little inappropriate". One comment was from me: "Unbelievable how long it takes to remove racism from Stack Overflow".
    – jabaa
    Aug 20, 2022 at 15:59
  • 15
    "One comment was from me: "Unbelievable how long it takes to remove racism from Stack Overflow"." Moderators are volunteers just like the rest of us, and just like answering a question, there is no SLA. At the weekend you can expect a slower turn around time for flags, as just like the rest of us moderators have lives outside of Stack Overflow.
    – Thom A
    Aug 20, 2022 at 16:01
  • 28
    Honestly, you could have fixed the post, @jabaa , then you wouldn't have needed to comment about how long it took as you could have taken it into your own hands. As a user with over 2k rep it wouldn't even need to have gone through a queue. If the OP rolled it back, then it would be time to flag it.
    – Thom A
    Aug 20, 2022 at 16:03
  • 2
    @Larnu My question is not, how other users should behave. I'm asking if it's correct, that a moderator removes comments about racism, comments on the question, but doesn't remove this content. The question is not how long it took. The question is, why the moderator didn't do anything about the content after they know about it and we're active in this question.
    – jabaa
    Aug 20, 2022 at 16:04
  • 18
    Moderators are (generally) for things that users can't handle themselves, @jabaa . They are exception handlers; so I would counter your question with was it right for you to do nothing?
    – Thom A
    Aug 20, 2022 at 16:06
  • 6
    You could still, separately, raise a custom flag afterwards if you wanted, to alert of a moderator of the hate speech; they could (if needed) note that against the users account. But that doesn't excuse that you and others who had the privilege to fix the issue didn't exercise it. I'm not saying I agree that the moderator should ignore it, but just that you are just as guilty.
    – Thom A
    Aug 20, 2022 at 16:09
  • 4
    And that comment was to complain the content wasn't removed, @jabaa . That wasn't constructive, nor helpful; it was correctly removed.
    – Thom A
    Aug 20, 2022 at 16:17
  • 13
    "It seems like "Islam always generate terrorism" isn't considered "rude or abusive" on Stack Overflow." - It seems you don't understand the purpose of R/A flags, they're for content that's totally irredeemable for the reason given. If you can edit out the crap and still have a question (even if it's one that would get closed), then an R/A flag is not the appropriate action. Aug 20, 2022 at 18:01
  • 11
    @jabaa Moderators aren't platform providers. They are users. You've used a flag to say "I'm not going to remove this content even though I could and really should, you do it instead". Aug 20, 2022 at 18:07
  • 1
    well, at the time the mod came to your flag the edit might have been made already and they missed that the post was edited. Always better to use a custom flag when there seems to be a reasonable post with some inappropriate content. It might well be that the user is doing this as a pattern in all their posts, a custom flags puts the mod in the right mindset, a stock R/A might not when the issue is resolved by editing.
    – rene
    Aug 20, 2022 at 18:07
  • 6
    Now that we managed to remove the stuff from main, do we really need the actual offensive content here in the meta question to understand your point?
    – rene
    Aug 20, 2022 at 18:09
  • 4
    @jabaa a moderator is handling red flags from a queue. They don't go open each post to see if something changed between the flag being raised and they handling the flag. You can argue for 6 to 8 weeks what you want moderators to be, but they are currently not and what you expect how their workflow should be is not sustainable due to sheer size.
    – rene
    Aug 20, 2022 at 18:12
  • 2
    @rene The moderator saw the racist content and commented "It's a little inappropriate"
    – jabaa
    Aug 20, 2022 at 18:16
  • 8
    I know what the mod said. They made the judgement call to give the OP the chance to fix it themselves. You're free to dislike that but that is where we are at now. Let's wait for the mod to tell their part of the story.
    – rene
    Aug 20, 2022 at 18:19
  • 16
    "The question isn't very clear and focused. Additionally, the sample data is a little inappropriate. Could you replace it with some other dummy text?" is an extremely disappointing statement coming from a moderator in this situation.
    – 41686d6564
    Aug 20, 2022 at 18:29

4 Answers 4

44

There were 3 flags raised on this question. I have read the question and investigated the issue. I decided to decline them as I didn't see any justification to take an action against the user. The content of the question contained a phrase that is offensive to the Islamic religion, but there was no indication that the author meant it as an insult. The phrase was a quotation of sample data. For all I know, the user is building an application to prevent offensive slurs, e.g. in a chat application. The data could have been censored, either by the question author or by anyone else with editing privileges. I really didn't see a reason to involve a moderator there. The question was low-quality and I have no objections to it being deleted, but as sarcastically pointed out by one of the commenters, this could have been also done by regular users.

The comments under this question were inappropriate. They have attacked the asker and moderators. Even if the asker's intentions were bad, there's no reason to post such comments. Calmly explain the issue in a custom mod flag, stating the action you think a mod should take and why it cannot be handled by the community. For example, if you know that this is a covert racial insult, explain why you think so and ask mods to talk to the user. Don't assume malice straight away.

Rude/Abusive flags are reserved for content that cannot be easily salvaged by a simple edit. The flagged question contained an inappropriate phrase, but the question itself wasn't NSFW or attacking anyone. The flags came before anyone tried to edit the content. The OP didn't double down on the insult either; on the contrary, they posted a clarifying comment: "Yes, I want markdown according to matched text.". It's quite possible that this was just a poor attempt at asking a question with very unfortunate data.

8
  • 3
    Sometimes, I may see something that I find R/A but is salvageable. Sometimes I try to salvage it and leave a polite comment, but occasionally (for various reasons), I think the OP may respond poorly to that and so I would prefer a mod do it. In that situation, is it preferred to custom-flag and explain, or is it preferred to go ahead and do it, and only flag if it goes downhill? I.e., is it ok to flag so a mod can deal with a user if I don’t want to myself (assuming it is something that doesn’t strictly require a mod), or should I do it anyway and only flag if it goes poorly…?
    – cocomac
    Aug 20, 2022 at 19:11
  • 18
    If you are afraid of doing it yourself, then I think raising a custom mod flag and stating your concerns is valid. But the flag needs to be clear about it too, not just "please edit this because I don't want to".
    – Dharman Mod
    Aug 20, 2022 at 19:13
  • 7
    "The content of the question contained a phrase that is offensive to the Islamic religion, but there was no indication that the author meant it as an insult" if the example data is irrelevant, it can be changed to anything else, like "phrase 1", "phrase 2", "phrase 3", etc. There's no point to keep those examples.
    – Braiam
    Aug 20, 2022 at 22:09
  • 1
    @cocomac If by go downhill you mean the user rolls back your edit, then yea you could flag for a mod. But if you just mean they argue about their r/a content, you don't have to engage. You could just ignore it. Aug 21, 2022 at 0:31
  • 5
    "The data could have been censored, either by the question author or by anyone else with editing privileges." I agree, but I still feel that there is a problem that you yourself didn't follow this advice and the only action taken was a comment... I feel that there is a big problem with Rude/Abusive flags, content that is rude is rude regardless of it being in comments / questions / answers. The stance of moderators on "declining" such flags is not great. I also understand that this is a problem with the tooling the moderators have but that just means the tooling needs to improve... Aug 21, 2022 at 14:26
  • 9
    "For all I know, the user is building an application to prevent offensive slurs" That is a pedantic rationalization, and even in that case the data is inappropriate in a post.
    – philipxy
    Aug 21, 2022 at 20:17
  • 3
    @philipxy I just call it assuming the best, something we should all try to do. You are probably right that the data does not belong, which is why we can edit it out.
    – Gimby
    Aug 22, 2022 at 8:34
  • 3
    @Gimby It's an "offensive slur"--the mod's own words. It does not belong. "assuming the best" is irrelevant. It's an offensive slur by being in the post whether the poster is expressing it as their opinion or not.
    – philipxy
    Aug 22, 2022 at 8:38
21

The details suggest a very different situation than the one you initially presented.

  • The post was created at 13:18 UTC.
  • The offensive content was part of an example, that could easily have been changed without affecting the rest of the question (the question was low quality in other ways, but that is beside the point).
  • Several comments were added, of which the example you have given us was not criticising the content itself, but criticising the moderators for not removing the content within 15 minutes.
  • At some point (I'm unclear when) these comments were deleted.
  • A comment at 13:35 UTC from a moderator does suggest the content might be inappropriate, and could be edited.
  • That comment stayed there until the post was finally self-deleted at 14:22

In this case, you could easily have avoided this whole scenario by simply editing the question yourself, and leaving a comment explaining - politely - why you have done so. Since you have more than 2000 reputation, the edit would not need to be reviewed, so the content would be removed immediately.

Moderators are volunteers, and generally prefer users to fix problems themselves when they can, rather than adding to the queue of flags they need to look into.

If the user had reverted your edit, or reacted rudely to your polite comment, then you could raise a flag for a moderator to intervene. They have the ability to send a more official warning, or suspend the user's account - but are unlikely to do so for a single incidence of offensive text from a new user, in an otherwise on-topic (though low-quality) question.

4
  • 14
    The moderator's comment that "the sample data is a little inappropriate" is absurd. That moderator should be informed that their concept of "appropriate" is inappropriate.
    – philipxy
    Aug 20, 2022 at 16:51
  • 1
    A moderator declined my flag. Does it mean that "Islam always generate terrorism" isn't inappropriate enough to be removed?
    – jabaa
    Aug 20, 2022 at 18:01
  • 15
    @jabaa No, it means it's not inappropriate enough for the moderator to do anything you couldn't do yourself. If the result you wanted was the content to be removed, flagging for a moderator was unnecessary and a waste of their time.
    – IMSoP
    Aug 20, 2022 at 18:12
  • 8
    @philipxy I think that's a case of polite (or even sarcastic) understatement, rather than a different standard of appropriateness. Maybe a more forceful tone was warranted, but I'm not sure what it would really have achieved.
    – IMSoP
    Aug 20, 2022 at 18:14
19

For the record, posts that contain a single offensive sentence, but are otherwise decent with no clear malicious intent should generally not be flagged as rude/abusive. Instead, users should edit out the offensive text. R/A flags on such posts have routinely been declined. I see no problem with that.

Now, I personally think that that wasn't a real question. It seems that it was an offensive statement disguised in the form of a (fake) question, but there's no way to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. It's a judgment call, so I would not fault the moderator for declining the flag.

However, the comment left by a moderator (could be the same or another mod) was, to say the least, extremely disappointing. For context, the comment said:

The question isn't very clear and focused. Additionally, the sample data is a little inappropriate. Could you replace it with some other dummy text?

"A little inappropriate"? Seriously? I hope I'm not the only one who sees this as extremely offensive. Had the mod not left a comment, I would've been fine with the declined flag*. However, treating such obvious hate speech as something that is just "a little inappropriate" and only addressing it as an aside (that's how I read "additionally") and merely asking the offender if they would consider replacing it with dummy text... that only comes across as taking hate speech (at least this kind of hate speech) very lightly.


* Though, they should probably reply with a custom message explaining what I mentioned in the first paragraph above.

6
  • 7
    I admit the comment wasn't the smartest decision. I could have edited the content and the question wouldn't lose clarity. And I don't deny that the phrase is hate speech when out of context, but as you said it's impossible to know if the poster meant it as such. I may be wrong, but I think CoC forbids hate speech when it's attacking users on the site, not when it's only an input to an application one is in the process of developing.
    – Dharman Mod
    Aug 20, 2022 at 19:03
  • @Dharman "but as you said it's impossible to know if the poster meant it as such" That's why I didn't fault declining the flag. My only critique was about the comment and how it was worded. [1/2]
    – 41686d6564
    Aug 20, 2022 at 19:10
  • 11
    "I think CoC forbids hate speech when it's attacking users on the site, not when it's only an input to an application one is in the process of developing" Seriously? Are you telling me that if I post a question in which I have an input string saying something like "the holocaust is a myth" or "black lives don't matter" (disclaimer: I don't believe either of those statements is true), that would be tolerated because I didn't directly attack users on the site and because this was part of an input string? [2/2]
    – 41686d6564
    Aug 20, 2022 at 19:10
  • 11
    I honestly find the text in question more childish than shocking. Yes, it's inappropriate, and it's possible the question was a deliberate Trojan Horse testing the waters of what would be tolerated; but it's also possible that it was just a joke in very poor taste, or even genuine but unfortunate test data, and the asker would have had no problem with it being quietly edited out, and we could have got on with our lives. On Wikipedia, all sorts of text appears in childish "test edits" all the time, and is only considered a problem if a user persists after the first revert.
    – IMSoP
    Aug 20, 2022 at 19:16
  • 7
    You posted a comment here with two offensive phrases used as examples of offensive phrases. Your comment shouldn't be censored, and you shouldn't be punished. Context matters. If you are writing a program to identify hate speech, you are going to need some of it as your input. Aug 20, 2022 at 21:56
  • 4
    @StephenOstermiller and yet, the content is irrelevant and you can change it afterwards. If you are searching for offensive phrases, the sample data isn't enough anyways and will require more phrases.
    – Braiam
    Aug 20, 2022 at 22:16
4

Let me reiterate to answer the title of the question: that kind of content is not to be tolerated. Like this essay says:

Tolerance is not a moral absolute; it is a peace treaty. Tolerance is a social norm because it allows different people to live side-by-side without being at each other’s throats. It means that we accept that people may be different from us, in their customs, in their behavior, in their dress, in their sex lives, and that if this doesn’t directly affect our lives, it is none of our business. But the model of a peace treaty differs from the model of a moral precept in one simple way: the protection of a peace treaty only extends to those willing to abide by its terms. It is an agreement to live in peace, not an agreement to be peaceful no matter the conduct of others. A peace treaty is not a suicide pact. (source)

We are not going to tolerate Islamophobic content, like we are not going to tolerate racism or sexism or other bigotry, because it has no place in the general discourse of technical software development. Moderators instead of merely declining the flag and commenting, should have educated the users by editing the content.

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .