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I was doing some reviews for Triage, and I came across a question which (I thought) was blatantly off topic. It is about graph theory, which is pure mathematics, and definitely has nothing to do with programming, even though the tags were "math" and "graph-theory".

I flagged it appropriately as "blatantly off-topic", and the system told me "Stop! Look...".

Can you please clarify and tell me why I was wrong in this case?

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    I fail to see how it is blatantly off-topic and pure mathematics when it's asking about an algorithm to do a specific task. Commented Aug 12, 2022 at 13:34
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    I really want to find an algorithm that finds.... Does something like this already exist? If so which algorithm would I use? sounds too broad / asking for libraries/software recommendations to me.
    – user438383
    Commented Aug 12, 2022 at 13:37
  • 27
    The simple answer to your question is that this was automatically chosen by the system as an audit because no one had voted to close it. In fact, the opposite: several users had upvoted it, suggesting that it was a good fit here. The system doesn't have any intelligence, it just picks audits based on what hasn't been closed and has been upvoted. As for whether the question is actually on-topic, to me, that's a bit of a gray area. We do allow questions about algorithms, but it's arguable whether this particular question is on-topic.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 12, 2022 at 13:40
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    That makes it a bad audit, but this a rather useful and interesting Meta discussion. Fortunately, your review privileges weren't suspended for failing this audit (failing a single audit doesn't cause a suspension, though "failing" multiple audits does, so you'll need to be extra careful going forward), so there's no harm done.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 12, 2022 at 13:41
  • 28
    @user438383 IMO, asking for an algorithm is different from asking for library/software recommendations because it is asking for information that can be included entirely within the answer rather than an outside resource. There may be links to supporting papers/documentation, but an algorithm can be described in sufficient detail within the answer itself.
    – beaker
    Commented Aug 12, 2022 at 16:03
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    And an algorithm is not affected by a company going out of business ... and all of the other things that make library/software/resource recommendations problematic,
    – Stephen C
    Commented Aug 13, 2022 at 3:38
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    @CodyGray "failing multiple audits does (cause a suspension) so you'll need to be extra careful going forward), so there's no harm done". Wrong. The harm is done in adding a sour taste to the entire audits process. I did a few audits ages ago, but the number of bad audits I see being discussed in Meta, coupled with the lack of any apology-with-compensation, has completely put me off wasting any more of my time and doing any more.
    – ClickRick
    Commented Aug 13, 2022 at 13:36
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    @ClickRick I meant harm done to the account, not the displeasure or distaste that it might cause someone. There are a very small number of complaints on Meta about audits relative to the total number of reviews (and, thus, audits) that happen every minute on Stack Overflow. Perhaps you do not appreciate the scale at which actions happen on this site? Any time you have a machine pick things, it's not going to be perfect. I and many other moderators have asked many times to let mods pick/edit the audit pool, but that hasn't been implemented. Unsure what "compensation" you were hoping for.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 13, 2022 at 16:07
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    @CodyGray You miss my point. The greater harm is done to the site because of the people who'll inevitably walk away from something that feels so broken, almost judgmental or toxic. I don't care that it's a machine picking the questions, it still feels damaged. As for "compensation", how about "We've set your reputation back as it should have been and credited you as thought you'd correctly 'passed' another audit besides".
    – ClickRick
    Commented Aug 13, 2022 at 18:32
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    @ClickRick If I'm being baldly honest, I want to say that I'm not overly concerned with people whose feelings are so sensitive that, when a machine makes a wrong choice, they feel that things are "broken", "judgmental", or "toxic". Sure, there's room for improvement; I don't deny that. I'd love to see improvements made here, and I've made many suggestions on how we might do so (and nitpicked many more!). But throwing out the baby with the bathwater, or taking your toys and going home, seem like such juvenile responses that I really don't know why I'd be upset that these people are choosing…
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 14, 2022 at 4:14
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    …not to review going forward. Good reviewers need to be patient, understanding, and flexible, not trigger-prone. As for this claim about "compensation", you seem to have some fundamental misunderstandings about how the review system works. There's no reputation involved whatsoever. This is why moderators don't/can't "set reputation back as it should have been", because there's no reputation change from failing an audit. Nor is there any "credit" to be given or taken. Even if there were, reviewing shouldn't be treated as a game, with prizes to be won. The prize is improving individual posts.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 14, 2022 at 4:14
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    @CodyGray: Gamification as motivation for doing boring work like reviews can fall flat on its face when you run into unpleasant stuff like bad audits. (Or for me, audits at all, especially for suggested-edit reviews. They're often very weird and confusing, so I waste time trying to figure out what the editor might have been trying to fix, and what I should improve in the original, before opening the original in a new tab to find out there's no pending edit and it was just a stupid audit of a bad edit that had already been rejected.) Commented Aug 14, 2022 at 6:54
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    Anyway, like an actual computer game, a bug in the game can make it feel much less fun. Even if it only threatens to take away some progress you made, without actually doing so yet like in this case. "toxic" and "judgemental" aren't great words to capture the feeling for reviewers, but I think I get what @ClickRick is trying to express. That this takes you out of the mental reward cycle. (Although in this case I think pure algorithm questions are clearly on-topic, and this audit correctly taught someone that.) Commented Aug 14, 2022 at 6:55
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    @CodyGray There quite clearly is some kind of internal "reputation", because otherwise failing multiple audits wouldn't track. All that would be needed is for a mod to remove the audit failure from the system with an apology. Is that so difficult to ask? Yes I understand you cannot do this now with the powers that you have, but it's pretty simple for Stack Exchange to implement Commented Aug 14, 2022 at 10:40
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    @CodyGray There is harm done if they now must "be extra careful going forward" because an automated system with no human oversight penalized their attempts to improve Stack Exchange due to a bad audit. If their choices are "risk getting locked out of reviewing entirely" or "suspend reviewing until they're no longer at an elevated risk of getting locked out of reviewing entirely", them it's not "juvenile" for them to make the later choice.
    – Eagle-Eye
    Commented Aug 14, 2022 at 19:21

2 Answers 2

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The off-topic reason includes the following claim:

This question does not appear to be about a specific programming problem, a software algorithm, or software tools primarily used by programmers.

This question is clearly about a software algorithm; namely, a software algorithm that solves the described problem.

It may be on topic on other stack exchange websites, and might even be better suited for elsewhere; but being on topic elsewhere does not make it off topic here.

What more, you should definitely not close the question using a reason that states the question has features it definitely does not have.

On the other hand, if the question asked about finding a hypercomputation algorithm, the lack of computers that implement hypercomputation would make it off-topic here.

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    Where is the code in this question that makes it software?
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 14, 2022 at 12:20
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    The question clearly relates to an algorithm but not a software algorithm. For that, I would expect to see something that is commonly used to implement software. Commented Aug 14, 2022 at 13:46
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    @Braiam Of course it's about software. Do you really think the OP was asking here about how to do this by hand, or with a mechanical machine? What else could it possibly be? Just because the OP didn't include a beginning attempt (in pseudocode or otherwise) doesn't not make it about software. Geez...
    – MattDMo
    Commented Aug 14, 2022 at 14:37
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    @Braiam I don't see anywhere in the Help Center that questions have to have code in order to be on-topic. In fact in How to Ask, it says explicitly "Not all questions benefit from including code..."
    – beaker
    Commented Aug 14, 2022 at 19:25
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    @MattDMo while the question is on-topic, the confusion is a lot more understandable than you're saying. People do, in fact, study algorithms outside of the context of software; in fact the study of algorithms predates software by a few thousand years :) It sounds like you maybe haven't taken a lot of math classes.
    – Personman
    Commented Aug 15, 2022 at 3:38
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There's nothing there that is inherently programming. Yes, algorithm questions are on topic, but so long as they pertain a programming problem. Here, we don't have a programming problem to solve, we are still in the theory crafting/model building process. The programming problem will come when it's the time to implement the algorithm, not before. This question is "not programming" as there isn't any issue cause by or solved with a "software algorithm", hence off topic.

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    I agree with this distinction from today's perspective. Such questions are better suited for CS.SE. However, considering historic context, before CS.SE and the like existed, this question were definitely welcomed on SO.
    – idmean
    Commented Aug 13, 2022 at 19:40
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    @idmean The question was only posted a month ago. Historicity has nothing to do with it. There are lots of very highly voted questions on this site that would be closed in minutes if they were posted today.
    – MattDMo
    Commented Aug 13, 2022 at 20:39
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    The very first line in the close reason text on that page is "This question does not appear to be about a specific programming problem, a software algorithm, or software tools primarily used by programmers." (emphasis mine, screenshot here) It's about a software algorithm in relation to a specific problem the OP is facing. No, it's not language-specific (but neither are algorithms, generally), and yes, it would be on-topic on Computer Science, but I think it's fine here. I would vote to reopen it.
    – MattDMo
    Commented Aug 13, 2022 at 20:45
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    @idmean Regardless of the rightness or wrongness of Braiam's answer (and this question in general), what you expressed in your comment is both wrong and dangerous. The fact that a question might be on-topic on another site can never make it off-topic for the site where it was asked. The topicality of questions is not evaluated that way. Questions are only closed because they are off-topic where they are asked. Migration is a subset of closure, not orthogonal to it. You don't close anything unless it's off-topic, so you can't close/migrate it on the theory that it's on-topic elsewhere.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 14, 2022 at 4:19
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    @MattDMo can you point where is software in that question? It's an algorithm question, not a software algorithm. That yes, the algorithm can be implemented in software but so you can write programs on a boat, that doesn't make asking about right of way in the sea on topic, even if you were programming during it.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 14, 2022 at 4:21
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    @MattDMo and we should strive to close them. This site is based on revisionism after all.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 14, 2022 at 4:25
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    @CodyGray You're taking my comment entirely out of context. I said I agree with the distinction made by this answer, which outlines why I think the answer is off-topic.
    – idmean
    Commented Aug 14, 2022 at 6:48
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    I can kind of see where this is coming from, but the distinction feels off. If we are just looking at algorithms in general that goes way, way beyond programming. Yet finding algorithms is part of programming, just like writing code is. Algorithms for graphs are part of programming, just like algorithms for more (or less!) concrete data structures. Perhaps it would help to clarify what the answer actually considers programming, then. Commented Aug 14, 2022 at 7:53
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    @MisterMiyagi breathing is part of programming too, and so are computers and OS, yet you don't see those topics being on topic here. We are not a theory site, we are a practical one, there's nothing immediately usable on that question. Mathematicians are known for creating stuff that doesn't have use yet, this question is still at that level yet. Once you are trying to make that into actual code, I would say go for it, but this question is still on high conceptual level still. Answers commenting that it's NP-hard kinda gives away that this Q isn't ready for SO.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 14, 2022 at 12:17
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    @Braiam Okay, that seems seriously overshooting things. For programming, algorithms aren't as ludicrously far fetched as breathing (seriously, if you don't want me to try and have an earnest discussion with you – please just say so, it would save a lot of time for both of us) but instead one of the main things of programming. Every program ultimately implements an algorithm and the right choice of algorithm is the critical part of many programming tasks. Many questions critically here depend on whether they are algorithmically feasible, or on complexity and other things in the same area. Commented Aug 14, 2022 at 12:27
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    Or to put another way: Is this answer supposed to say that the deciding part is whether the OP tries to do something as concrete code? Critically, whether that's excluding similar things such as pseudo-code or a description in prose? Commented Aug 14, 2022 at 12:29
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    @MisterMiyagi the thing is that we humans (and nature) use algorithms for everything. Heck, the mere fact that you made the decision to answer my comment is an algorithm. It's not "far fetched". People will stretch the definitions of algorithm as far as they can, I'm pointing out that fatal flaw in that argument. An example of people taking things too far was "we don't edit code" "rule". It was originally "we do not edit code in questions unless we know the issue (and format)". I've seen this plenty of times, something that was nuanced lost nuance. Programs aren't the only thing using algos!
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 14, 2022 at 12:31
  • @MisterMiyagi or to put it another way: we are going to very dearly reject this decision. I've been known for calling stuff years in advance and be proven right.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 14, 2022 at 12:32
  • If anyone wants to make a through exercise: think of any algorithm question that is not "software algorithm".
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 14, 2022 at 12:35
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    I don't see how thinking about the abstract steps your program is going to need to implement is in any way comparable to breathing while doing it, or the boat you happen to be sitting on. Programming isn't just about implementing known algorithms or gluing pieces together. Sometimes the answer to a programming question can be an algorithm, but it can't be a boat. Commented Aug 15, 2022 at 10:04

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